The Real Loser of the V.P. Debate

It’s our politics.

Oct. 3, 2024

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By M. Gessen

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The Opinions

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The Real Loser of the V.P. Debate

The Real Loser of the V.P. DebateThe Real Loser of the V.P. Debate

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M. Gessen, an Opinion columnist, watched Tuesday’s vice-presidential debate with a sense of dread. In their mind, the question was not who would win the debate but, rather: How much did we lose? In this audio essay, Gessen argues that when we put Trump and his acolytes on the same platform as regular politicians and treat them equally, “that normalization degrades our political life and degrades our understanding of politics.”

Below is a lightly edited transcript of the above audio piece:

M. Gessen: I went into Tuesday’s vice-presidential debate with a sense of dread because I thought that the last debate was kind of a disaster.

And by disaster I don’t mean that Kamala Harris didn’t hold her own against Donald Trump, or that Donald Trump scored any points in the debate, but that the fact of the debate itself and the format of the debate, which placed these two candidates on a sort of level footing, treated them both as normal politicians and treated the things they said as normal political statements.

And so, while there were some, I would say, halfhearted attempts at fact-checking Donald Trump, basically, it turned into a “he said, she said,” where on the one side you had a lie and on the other side you had facts.

So, for example, the way that the moderators of the presidential debate handled the Springfield, Ohio, slander ——

Audio clip of presidential debate:

Donald Trump: They’re eating the dogs, the people that came in. They’re eating the cats …

Gessen: And the moderator said, well, we called the city manager ——

Clip of presidential debate

David Muir: I’m not taking this from television. I’m taking it from the city manager.

Trump: But the people on television say their dog was eaten by the people that went there.

Muir: Again, the Springfield city manager says there’s no evidence of that.

Gessen: When you place lies and facts on an even footing, it basically creates a political sphere in which there’s no fact-based reality. That’s a pre-totalitarian condition. You can’t have politics if you don’t have a shared reality and if you don’t place an absolute value on the truth. I think that normalization degrades our political life and degrades our understanding of politics.

What was a kind of failure of the presidential debate — which is that they tried to counter Trump’s lies in some way, but couldn’t handle all of them — in the vice-presidential debate, this was by design. They made an agreement ahead of time that they were not going to do real-time fact checking by the moderators. And not only did they allow JD Vance to lie, for example, about Trump saving the Affordable Care Act, but the moderator asks Tim Walz a yes or no question that, according to Trump, Walz has said that abortions in the ninth month are absolutely fine.

Clip of vice-presidential debate

Norah O’Donnell: Former President Trump said in the last debate that you believe abortion, quote, in the ninth month is absolutely fine. Yes or no? Is that what you support?

Gessen: So the moderator asks Walz about something that, A) she knows isn’t true, B) it’s not a thing, and puts it on him to deny that he ever said such a thing or that the thing even exists. And of course he fumbles. He fumbles because it is almost impossible to answer a question like that without somehow also implicating yourself in the lie.

We, as journalists, do our absolute worst when we engage in a kind of false evenhandedness. What I think their thinking was — and I can only conjecture — but their thinking was probably: We have one candidate who is in the habit of lying, as is his running mate. Let’s find a way that we can show that we’re equally critical of both candidates.

So before Vance even has to face a question about Jan. 6 or about whether Trump lost the 2020 election, let’s ask Walz why he lied about being in Hong Kong during Tiananmen Square.

Clip of vice-presidential debate

Margaret Brennan: You said you were in Hong Kong during the deadly Tiananmen Square protests in the spring of 1989. But Minnesota public radio and other media outlets are reporting that you actually didn’t travel to Asia until August of that year. Can you explain that discrepancy? You have two minutes.

Tim Walz: Yeah. Well, and to the folks out there who didn’t get at the top of this …

Gessen: The idea that that is in any way comparable to the kinds of really malignant lies that Trump and Vance have been spreading intentionally. There is no equality here.

Clip of vice-presidential debate

Norah O’Donnell: Senator Vance, you have said you would not have certified the last presidential election and would have asked the states to submit alternative electors. That has been called unconstitutional and illegal. Would you again seek to challenge this year’s election results, even if every governor certifies the results? I’ll give you two minutes.

JD Vance: Well, Norah, first of all, I think that we’re focused on the future …

Gessen: Vance absolutely leaned into the Trump framing of Jan. 6 as, on the one hand, a peaceful protest, on the other hand, a question of freedom of speech, a reflection of fundamental American values. And this, as many people have noted, was when Walz finally seemed to find his footing, in the last 10 minutes of the debate. And I think this is another thing that was so disappointing to me.

It’s a classic false equivalence. Walz is talking about his time in Hong Kong and possibly fibbing, possibly misremembering, but it’s a minor, minor thing in his background. Versus Vance’s out-and-out lies about an actual insurrection and actual violent attack on our institutions of state. To put them on the same level is absurd.

It’s easy for me to sit here and say the debate is bad and the moderators are bad and the format is bad and everything is bad, which it is. Also, there is a predicament that we’re in, that we do have an election coming up in which one of the candidates is a liar and an aspiring autocrat and the other is not those things. And voters, at least some voters, are genuinely choosing between them, and that is already damaging to our politics.

As journalists, we can’t not cover this reality. So the question is: How do we cover this reality in a way that doesn’t amplify the damage, that doesn’t exacerbate the damage, but that reduces the damage?

I think we need a harm reduction philosophy of covering Trump and his party and the election. And these are some things to consider: One is to cut his or Vance’s mic when they start lying. And I know this is a hugely controversial idea, and it’s usually controversial because it will enable them to scream censorship, but there needs to be a philosophy of journalism that is oriented toward the public good.

When I talk to my students about it, I always say: Imagine that information is water and some of the water is poisoned. And if you are tasked with conveying the water to the public, it would be a crime for you to convey poisoned water. And I think that political lies, lies in the public sphere, are just as poisonous to our politics as poisoned water is to humans. And if we think of ourselves as conveyors, as mediators, as media, who transport this information, this water, then we have this abiding responsibility to do something about it. We can’t just turn to one of the candidates and say, “I’d like to see you take a sip of that. And see what happens to you.”

I think we also need to figure out ways to contextualize the candidates. Certainly, this two-minute-per-person debate format is not conducive to creating nuanced or contextualized pictures. But what if we had a different format? What if journalists prepared fact-based reports to create context for the debate? Who said that the debate absolutely has to be broadcast live? If we have one person who is lying in the debate, maybe that’s not the best possible format.

These are just some ideas. I mean, I don’t sit around all day thinking about debates. But there are people whose job it is to think about debates all the time. And I don’t think they’re doing a very good job.

So the debate was truly worse than I feared. If you think back to the presidential debate and how in the immediate aftermath everybody said that Kamala Harris won it, which she did, she was a better debater if you judge it as a debate. But if you judge it in terms of its influence and think about who dominated the news cycle afterward, well, it was clearly Donald Trump and his lies, and Vance’s lies about Springfield, Ohio.

I fear that we’re going to see even more of that now because Vance got his message out and it’s going to be Vance normalized, Vance validated, Vance quoted, Vance clipped, and we have another MAGA news cycle.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48159384)

"So the debate was truly worse than I feared. If you think back to the presidential debate and how in the immediate aftermath everybody said that Kamala Harris won it, which she did, she was a better debater if you judge it as a debate. But if you judge it in terms of its influence and think about who dominated the news cycle afterward, well, it was clearly Donald Trump and his lies, and Vance’s lies about Springfield, Ohio.

I fear that we’re going to see even more of that now because Vance got his message out and it’s going to be Vance normalized, Vance validated, Vance quoted, Vance clipped, and we have another MAGA news cycle."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48159399)

Americans want bangers, not policies. Provide the bangers and you can largely do what you want.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48163928)

Demanding evidence sounds reasonable at face value, but when you stop and think about it, calling these claims “lies” because high-quality evidence isn’t present is pretty ridiculous. Cats get eaten by coyotes and owls all the time. If you called the cops and told them your pet got eaten by Haitians they are just going to roll their eyes and assume you’re crazy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48159479)

(Recommend sitting down first)

https://www.lyceumagency.com/speakers/masha-gessen/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48159483)

When speaking of their childhood, Gessen said: "I remember, at the age of five [...] hoping that I would wake up a boy. A real boy. I had people address me by a boy’s name. My parents, fortunately, were incredibly game. They were totally fine with it."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48160674)

Gessen was born into a Jewish family in Moscow to Alexander and Yelena Gessen.[1]

Gessen's maternal grandmother, Ruzya Solodovnik, was a Russian-born intellectual who worked as a censor for the Stalinist government until she was fired during an antisemitic purge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48160678)

lol, scratch the surface and it's 1000 bizarre kikes like this churning out subversive propaganda, like ink-stained Bolshevik pamphleteers in 1930s central europe.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48162148)

But really there are only what like a couple million of them or so in a country of 400 million people I mean what would they even do about it if we just killed them like as a joke lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48160646)

It must have been horrific when their blinders came down on Tuesday.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48160935)

from trayvon to biden's cognition. if someone continues trusting the msm without any skepticism after being told potus is fine and still supports them and the dems when he has to be replaced asap with no input from the people because of his cognition, i don't think there is a limit to their credulity.

it is funny watching them pivot to subjective things like vance being "weird" though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48160953)

By Michael Baxter

January 20, 2025 4:13 PM EDT - Updated 108 days from now

Monday afternoon, during the inauguration of President Donald Trump, noted retarded faggot Masha Gessen was executed on stage. President Trump continued to speak as Gessen was led out onto the stage to be killed: "Look at this thing, folks? Can you believe it? They let this thing out in public? Well, we'll take care of it right away, folks!"

Barron Trump was the first to strike a blow, nailing the creature in the temple with a carpenter's hammer provided for the occasion. President Trump concluded his remarks by saying, "I hate to say it, but you can't really tell the difference! Really nasty, hideous faggot, folks. I shouldn't take a swing, should I? Well, maybe, maybe just one."

At press time, the President was winding up for his second swing at what little remained of the tranny faggot's head, to thunderous applause from the millions of patriots in attendance.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/donald-trump-kills-ugly-retarded-tranny-inauguration-2025-01-20/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48163764)

Analysis:

Critique of the New York Times: Several poasters take issue with the NYT and its perceived political bias. Comments like "and people try to act as though the NYT is still the staid, sober 'newspaper of record'" suggest a deep skepticism of mainstream media's objectivity. This criticism is compounded by the fact that Masha Gessen, a journalist who identifies as non-binary and trans, is a common target of ridicule on this board. Their presence as an author brings in attacks on identity politics, exemplified by the numerous gendered slurs and derogatory remarks about their identity.

Disdain for Moderation in Political Discourse: Many poasters reflect a sentiment that politics today, especially debates, have devolved into entertainment. The idea that Americans prioritize "bangers" or zingers over substantive policy discussion appears several times in the thread. Poaster four word lower case captures this with: “Americans want bangers, not policies. Provide the bangers and you can largely do what you want."

Trump and Vance Normalization: Gessen's original argument—concern over the normalization of Trump's and J.D. Vance's rhetoric—serves as a springboard for many poasters to either dismiss or further trivialize Gessen's concern. The idea that Vance won the debate and that the normalization of figures like him is damaging to American politics is met with derision and dismissal on XO.

Satirical Violence: Several responses, such as the fabricated Reuters report about Trump's inauguration, escalate into exaggerated satire involving violent imagery, particularly against Masha Gessen. This reflects AutoAdmit's brand of shock humor, often deploying violence or extreme scenarios for effect, while pushing boundaries on what is acceptable discourse.

Denial of Serious Criticism: The dismissive tone throughout the thread shows an unwillingness to engage seriously with the notion that figures like Vance or Trump could be dangerous for democracy. Instead, much of the focus shifts to ridiculing Gessen, the NYT, and the broader media landscape. This reflects an attitude common on XO—focusing on mocking cultural elites and the perceived liberal media bias, rather than engaging with substantive political critiques.

This thread exemplifies a broader AutoAdmit attitude toward mainstream political commentary, combining elements of anti-media sentiment, identity-based ridicule, and a shift toward viewing politics as entertainment rather than substantive debate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5605826&forum_id=2/en-en/#48165075)