Evaluating the civilization histories of India, China, the UK, Germany, and France before 1500 AD involves assessing their cultural, technological, political, and intellectual achievements up to that point. Since "complexity" isn’t explicitly defined here, I’ll interpret this as a measure of historical development—considering factors like urban organization, writing systems, governance, arts, science, and lasting impact. Pre-1500 AD limits us to medieval and ancient periods, so the UK, Germany, and France (as distinct entities) are less defined than India and China, which had longer, more continuous civilized traditions. I’ll assign scores out of 10 based on their state by 1500 AD, reflecting their cumulative progress.

India: 9/10

Timeline: From ~3300 BCE (Indus Valley Civilization) to 1500 AD.

Achievements:

Urbanization: Indus Valley (Harappa, Mohenjo-Daro) had advanced cities by 2500 BCE—planned grids, drainage, baths—rivaling Mesopotamia.

Culture: Vedas (1500 BCE) birthed Hinduism; epics like Mahabharata and Ramayana shaped literature. Gupta era (4th-6th CE) saw a "Golden Age"—art (Ajanta caves), math (zero, decimals), and astronomy (Aryabhata).

Governance: Maurya Empire (321-185 BCE) under Ashoka unified much of the subcontinent; later, Cholas (9th-13th CE) built a maritime empire.

Science: Metallurgy (wootz steel), medicine (Ayurveda), and linguistics (Panini’s grammar) were cutting-edge.

Religion/Philosophy: Buddhism and Jainism emerged, influencing Asia.

By 1500 AD: Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526) and regional kingdoms (e.g., Vijayanagara) maintained sophisticated courts, trade (Silk Road), and architecture (Qutb Minar).

Score: 9/10. India’s early urbanism, intellectual leaps, and cultural continuity are immense, though political fragmentation post-Gupta slightly dims its peak.

China: 10/10

Timeline: From ~2070 BCE (Xia Dynasty, semi-mythical) to 1500 AD.

Achievements:

Urbanization: Shang Dynasty (1600-1046 BCE) had bronze-age cities; later, Chang’an (Tang, 7th-10th CE) was the world’s largest city (~1 million).

Governance: Qin (221-206 BCE) centralized China—standardized script, weights, roads—followed by Han (202 BCE-220 CE), Tang, and Song (960-1279) dynasties. Bureaucracy via Confucian exams was unmatched.

Technology: Gunpowder (9th CE), printing (movable type, 11th CE), compass, paper—all pre-1500. Silk production fueled trade.

Culture: Confucianism, Daoism, and Legalism shaped philosophy; poetry (Li Bai), painting, and calligraphy thrived. Great Wall (begun 221 BCE) symbolized scale.

Science: Astronomy (star catalogs), math (Zu Chongzhi’s pi), and engineering (Grand Canal) were advanced.

By 1500 AD: Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) ruled a stable, prosperous empire—Forbidden City, Zheng He’s voyages—after Mongol Yuan interruption.

Score: 10/10. China’s continuity, technological innovation, and centralized sophistication make it a benchmark civilization.

UK (Britain): 5/10

Timeline: Prehistoric to 1500 AD (no unified “UK” yet—just England, Wales, Scotland as regions).

Achievements:

Pre-Roman: Stonehenge (2500 BCE) shows megalithic skill; Iron Age Celts (800 BCE) had hill forts, metalwork.

Roman Era (43-410 CE): Britannia adopted roads, towns (Londinium), and baths, but this was Roman-driven.

Post-Roman: Anglo-Saxon kingdoms (5th-9th CE) were small-scale; Beowulf reflects oral culture. Viking raids (8th-11th CE) disrupted progress.

Medieval: Norman Conquest (1066) brought feudalism, castles (Tower of London), and Magna Carta (1215)—a legal milestone. Gothic cathedrals (e.g., Canterbury) emerged.

By 1500 AD: England was consolidating under the Tudors, but it lagged behind continental powers—no major cities or innovations yet.

Score: 5/10. Britain’s pre-1500 history is modest—Roman influence and medieval stirrings, but no deep urban or intellectual tradition compared to Asia.

Germany: 4/10

Timeline: Prehistoric to 1500 AD (no “Germany”—tribal lands, then Holy Roman Empire).

Achievements:

Pre-Roman: Germanic tribes (e.g., Cherusci) were semi-nomadic; Arminius beat Rome (9 CE), but no cities or writing.

Roman Fringe: Frontier towns (e.g., Trier) were Roman outposts, not local feats.

Early Medieval: Frankish Empire (Charlemagne, crowned 800 CE) unified parts, with Aachen as a hub—Carolingian Renaissance boosted learning briefly.

Holy Roman Empire (962-1500): A loose federation of duchies; cathedrals (Cologne, begun 1248) and trade (Hanseatic League) grew, but political unity was weak.

By 1500 AD: A patchwork of states under HRE; no centralized culture or tech breakthroughs.

Score: 4/10. Germany’s pre-1500 story is fragmented—Roman and Frankish echoes, but little indigenous complexity.

France: 6/10

Timeline: Prehistoric to 1500 AD (Gaul, then Francia, then France).

Achievements:

Pre-Roman: Gauls had oppida (fortified towns) and metalwork, but no writing or unity.

Roman Gaul (50 BCE-476 CE): Cities (Lutetia), aqueducts, and villas—Roman-driven.

Medieval: Franks under Clovis (481 CE) Christianized; Charlemagne’s empire overlapped here. Feudalism followed, with Gothic architecture (Notre-Dame, 1163) and chivalry.

High Middle Ages: Capetian kings (987-1328) centralized power; universities (Paris, 12th CE) and Crusades boosted culture. Hundred Years’ War (1337-1453) tested resilience.

By 1500 AD: France was a rising kingdom—strong monarchy, art (illuminated manuscripts), and trade.

Score: 6/10. France edges ahead of UK/Germany with earlier monarchy and medieval culture, but it’s young compared to India/China.

Comparison and Scores

India (9/10): Ancient urbanism, intellectual giants, and cultural depth—near-top-tier.

China (10/10): Unrivaled continuity, tech, and scale—a civilization juggernaut.

UK (5/10): Slow starter—Roman and Norman boosts, but no deep roots.

Germany (4/10): Tribal until late; least developed pre-1500.

France (6/10): Medieval momentum, but no ancient foundation.

Why These Scores?

China’s 10 reflects its unmatched pre-1500 record—few civilizations rival its longevity and innovation. India’s 9 acknowledges its parallel brilliance, tempered by less political cohesion. Europe’s entries lag because 1500 AD cuts off before their Renaissance peaks—France leads the pack with medieval gains, while UK and Germany were still coalescing. Pre-1500, Asia’s head start is clear. Thoughts on these rankings?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779831)

Indonesia: 7/10

Timeline: From ~200 CE (early kingdoms) to 1500 AD.

Achievements:

Urbanization: Early trade-based polities like Srivijaya (7th-13th CE) in Sumatra developed urban centers (e.g., Palembang), thriving on maritime commerce. Archaeological evidence shows planned settlements with wooden structures (less durable than stone, so less preserved). Majapahit (13th-15th CE) in Java built Trowulan, a sprawling capital with canals and brick temples.

Governance: Srivijaya was a thalassocratic (sea-based) empire, controlling the Malacca Strait—a Silk Road chokepoint—by the 7th century. Majapahit, peaking under Gajah Mada (14th CE), unified much of the archipelago, projecting power via navy and tribute systems. Both used mandala-style governance (loose alliances, not centralized like China).

Culture: Indian influence (Hinduism, Buddhism) shaped art—Borobudur (9th CE, Buddhist) and Prambanan (9th CE, Hindu) are monumental temples with intricate carvings. Local traditions blended in, seen in gamelan music origins and wayang puppetry. Writing (Kawi script) emerged by the 8th century.

Technology: Advanced shipbuilding (outrigger boats, jong vessels) enabled trade and conquest across Southeast Asia. Wet-rice agriculture (sawah) supported population growth, though no major inventions like gunpowder arose.

Trade/Impact: Srivijaya was a Buddhist learning hub, attracting monks from China (e.g., Yijing, 7th CE). Majapahit’s influence reached modern Malaysia and Thailand, spreading Javanese culture. Spices (nutmeg, cloves) made it a global player.

By 1500 AD: Majapahit declined (late 15th CE) amid internal strife and Islamic sultanates (e.g., Demak) rising, but its legacy—temples, trade networks—endured.

Score: 7/10. Indonesia’s maritime empires, cultural synthesis, and architectural feats are impressive, but its late start (post-200 CE) and less centralized systems trail India and China.

Updated Comparison and Scores

India (9/10):

Edge: Ancient cities (Indus, 3300 BCE), intellectual leaps (math, philosophy), and vast cultural output. Fragmentation post-Gupta caps it at 9.

China (10/10):

Edge: Earliest continuity (2070 BCE), unmatched tech (gunpowder, printing), and centralized scale by 1500 (Ming). The gold standard.

UK (5/10):

Edge: Roman towns and medieval stirrings (Magna Carta), but no deep pre-1500 roots.

Germany (4/10):

Edge: Tribal until Frankish/HRE influence; least developed by 1500.

France (6/10):

Edge: Medieval consolidation (Capetians) and Gothic culture, but no ancient base.

Indonesia (7/10):

Edge: Maritime empires (Srivijaya, Majapahit), temple architecture, and trade dominance. Late bloom and loose governance limit it.

Analysis

Top Tier: China (10) and India (9) lead with millennia of urbanism, innovation, and influence. China’s centralized tech and India’s intellectual depth set them apart.

Mid Tier: Indonesia (7) and France (6) show strong medieval progress. Indonesia’s maritime and cultural complexity outpaces France’s feudal gains, but both lag the Asian giants.

Lower Tier: UK (5) and Germany (4) are late starters—Roman and early medieval steps, but no cohesive civilization pre-1500.

Indonesia slots in as a solid contender, surpassing Europe’s entries due to its earlier urban trade networks and cultural monuments, yet it doesn’t match India or China’s longevity or breadth. Its score reflects a vibrant but younger civilization by 1500 AD. How does this fit with your view of Indonesia’s history?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779839)

Updated Comparison and Scores

India (9/10): Ancient urbanism (Indus), intellectual giants (zero, Vedas), vast depth. Fragmentation post-Gupta caps it.

China (10/10): Unmatched continuity, tech (gunpowder, compass), scale (Ming by 1500). The benchmark.

UK (5/10): Roman towns, medieval stirrings (Magna Carta). Slow pre-1500 start.

Germany (4/10): Tribal until HRE; minimal cohesion by 1500.

France (6/10): Medieval monarchy, Gothic culture, no ancient base.

Indonesia (7/10): Maritime empires (Srivijaya, Majapahit), temples (Borobudur). Late bloom.

Japan (7/10): Nara/Heian culture, shogunate rule. Late urbanism, Chinese reliance.

Korea (7/10): Three Kingdoms to Joseon; tech (printing, Hangul), smaller scale.

Burma (6/10): Pyu and Pagan peaks; strong culture, but fragmented later.

Cambodia (7/10): Khmer Empire’s Angkor; urban and artistic highs, post-14th decline.

Vietnam (7/10): Dong Son to Dai Viet; resilience and culture, but Chinese shadow looms.

Analysis

Top Tier: China (10) and India (9) lead with ancient origins, broad innovation, and influence. China’s scale and India’s intellect stand out.

Upper Mid-Tier: Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Cambodia, and Vietnam (all 7) showcase medieval strengths—maritime power, cultural synthesis, tech, architecture, and resistance, respectively. Vietnam aligns with this group, matching Cambodia’s peak complexity (Khmer vs. Dai Viet) but with less monumental flair.

Lower Mid-Tier: France (6) and Burma (6) have solid medieval bases—France’s broader reach and Burma’s Pagan legacy pair them.

Lower Tier: UK (5) and Germany (4) trail—late starters with minimal pre-1500 depth.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779843)

news flash, Pajeet: it's 2025

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779846)

* arabs knew about the wheel but they voluntarily abandoned it in favor of camels ljljlj

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779850)

Mediterranean (Ancient Greece, Rome, Byzantium) - 9.5/10

Greece gave philosophy, democracy, and science foundations; Rome added engineering, law, and governance; Byzantium preserved it all. Massive cultural and structural legacy across Europe and beyond.

East Asia (Ancient China, Korea, Japan) - 9/10

China’s gunpowder, paper, printing, and bureaucracy dominate, with Korea’s early metal printing and Japan’s cultural refinement (e.g., Heian period) adding depth. Consistent, world-changing output.

Middle East (Mesopotamia, Persia, Islamic Caliphates) - 8.5/10

Mesopotamia birthed cities, writing, and law; Persia scaled administration; Caliphates (pre-1500) advanced math (algebra), medicine, and preserved knowledge. Foundational but fragmented over time.

South Asia (Indus Valley, Maurya, Gupta) - 8/10

Indus Valley’s urban planning, India’s zero, decimal system, and religions (Hinduism, Buddhism) spread far. Brilliant peaks, but less sustained global reach than others.

North Africa (Egypt, Carthage) - 7.5/10

Egypt’s pyramids, writing, and longevity stand out; Carthage added trade and naval power. Influential early, but impact waned post-antiquity.

Mesoamerica (Olmec, Maya, Aztec) - 7/10

Maya’s astronomy, zero, and calendars; Olmec’s early culture; Aztec’s empire-building. Impressive regionally, but isolated from global exchange.

Andes (Inca, Moche, Tiwanaku) - 6.5/10

Inca’s roads, agriculture (terracing), and administration; earlier cultures’ metallurgy and art. Ingenious but limited by geography and late bloom (Inca peak nears 1500).

Sub-Saharan Africa (Nubia, Aksum, Ghana) - 6/10

Nubia’s trade and pyramids, Aksum’s coinage and architecture, Ghana’s gold wealth. Significant locally, but less documented innovation or global reach pre-1500.

Northern Europe (Celts, Vikings) - 5.5/10

Celts’ art and ironwork, Vikings’ exploration and shipbuilding. Bold and mobile, but contributions were narrower and less transformative.

Oceania (Polynesia, Aboriginal Australia) - 5/10

Polynesia’s navigation and island colonization; Australia’s oral traditions and tools. Remarkable adaptation, but smaller scale and tech impact.

This reflects total contributions by region up to 1500 AD, balancing innovation, influence, and longevity. Let me know if you’d like a deeper dive into any area!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779854)

Now, are they part of Africa? Buckle up for this wild ride! Sure, Ireland’s parked off Europe, looking all pale and pasty, but let’s squint harder. Those Viking raids? Clearly just African pirates who got lost—red beards are basically sunburn, right? The monks scribbling away? Obviously channeling ancient Egyptian scribes, just with worse lighting. And the Normans? Frenchified Sahara warlords in disguise, bringing feudal vibes to the jungle—er, bog. Genetically, who cares about boring DNA when you’ve got vibes—all that fiery spirit and storytelling screams African griot energy. The island’s just floating there, pretending to be European, but deep down, it’s been vibing to an Afrobeat rhythm the whole time. Conclusion: Ireland’s totally Africa’s secret stepchild—someone tell the geographers they’ve been punked!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5699416&forum_id=2:#48779923)