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Moral Character Discussion
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:53 AM Author: flatulent trip site Just to throw this out there. How can past conduct from years ago be relevant to determining "Present Moral Character" which is the standard for bar admission? Especially if the past conduct was admitted by the prospective applicant? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977521) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:54 AM Author: Vivacious keepsake machete property The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
-Dr. Phil |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:56 AM Author: beady-eyed chapel that's only for dumbs and poors. LAWYERS are exempt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977549) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 6:58 PM Author: Aromatic station sneaky criminal Also, whether you disclose past bad acts in your bar application is relevant to your current moral character.
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:54 AM Author: tantric cerebral native your personality is pretty set by your early 20's. if you're lying, cheating, stealing, drinking, drugging, etc., as an adult, you have character failings, even if its a few years old. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977535) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:55 AM Author: flatulent trip site Though suppose it's only one incident. Let's say theft from 4 or 5 or 15 years ago? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977544) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:57 AM Author: Vivacious keepsake machete property lol at non trads (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977559) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:57 AM Author: 180 legal warrant they figure you'll steal thing in a pinch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977560) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:59 AM Author: flatulent trip site So then how does one go about showing that their past conduct is no longer relevant? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977572) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:04 PM Author: tantric cerebral native at your informal hearing, they will put out a dish of candy. you are not supposed to take the candy unless they offer it to you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977607) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:01 PM Author: vibrant copper kitchen dopamine lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978450) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 11:59 AM Author: tantric cerebral native unless it was an accident, past thievery is relevant to an ethics board. most people don't steal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977567) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:00 PM Author: beady-eyed chapel lol, most people have stolen something at some point in their lives (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977583) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:03 PM Author: tantric cerebral native you only think this because you're irish (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977598) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:06 PM Author: beady-eyed chapel ????? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977620) |
Date: September 6th, 2010 12:02 PM Author: flatulent trip site So then other than by saying they are sorry and won't commit the past act again, how does one prove their present moral character? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977589) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:05 PM Author: Vivacious keepsake machete property stfu thief (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977614) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:06 PM Author: flatulent trip site Not a thief, just used it as an example. Ok, suppose it was writing several NSF checks you didn't know there was no money in the account. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977619) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:10 PM Author: tantric cerebral native mismanaging and possibly embezzling client money specifically, being irresponsible, thinking rules dont apply to you, breaking the law, etc., generally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977645) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:11 PM Author: 180 legal warrant that's precisely the kind of violation the care most about; congratulations on your choice of "just an example" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977660) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 12:14 PM Author: flatulent trip site Changing the example, suppose it's a DUI narcotics from 5 years ago. How would you prove that this conduct is no longer relevant? Just by apologizing and saying you learned your lesson? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15977684) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:28 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park That's a fairly easy one. You submit proof that you went to rehab or spent a decent amount of time in an NA group, and then point out that you haven't been arrested for anything similar since.
It's harder to prove that you've gotten past whatever made you steal things, and generally theft-related crimes as an adult are among the things most likely to hold up your bar application. |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:52 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge well unless the cause of stealing things was based on use of narcotics. i would rather tell the bar that i stole something because i was a drug addict rather than i'm just a piece of shit that likes to take things which don't belong to me.
most people do not steal when they're in their 20s. if a person has a history of substance-related arrests and/or DUIs and they are caught stealing something, if the person says they stole in order to purchase drugs, i think the bar would be more likely to admit them rather than the person who steals for fun. drug addiction is often viewed as a treatable medical condition. stealing stuff for no reason at all is just shady. |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:54 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park I kind of agree with that, but I do think it would be a lot harder to explain being an addict and stealing (especially if it were something like embezzling) and being an addict and having DUIs, or even domestic abuse citations. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978405) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:03 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge i agree, i think embezzlement is a tough offense to get out of. any kind of fraud like that, even if it happened over 10 years ago, still creates potential for that person getting dinged. i actually read a very similar case on westlaw. i guess the point is, if you're not truly a bad apple and had a DUI, drugs were involved perhaps, and maybe you stole something for drug money from a retail store, and a few years have passed, you will probably get into the bar if you could show rehabilitation (i.e. rehab, aa meetings, etc.). they would probably call you in too just to see you face to face and check out your general demeanor. you could definitely tell more about somebody when you see them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978460) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:05 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park That makes sense. I think shoplifting would be the most forgivable of the theft-related crimes by far. To me, that generally indicates either desperation or immaturity. Embezzlement is so related to legal practice that it would be frightening even if it happened a very long time ago, and breaking into someone's house or mugging someone creates questions about character beyond addiction or theft. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978469) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:06 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge lol yes, now you're talking about a guy who should likely still be in jail. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978476) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:27 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park There aren't many other ways of judging someone's moral character without knowing them well. The bar can't design some dungeon for you to moralize your way out of or assign someone to become your friend and shadow you for a year. The best they can do is look at your past behavior and try to determine if there are negative patterns there. They're human beings and have common sense, so they weigh the fact that an offense took place a long time ago appropriately. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978194) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:58 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge which sucks a little bit because there are people i go to school with who never got in trouble for anything in their life, yet they are the biggest, most unethical pieces of shit i know and will have no trouble getting into the bar. then there are people i go to school with who i would trust with my life and they will have issues because of the DUI and drug arrest they had 5 years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978428) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:01 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park Look, nothing's perfect. But let me be clear: your friend who has a DUI and drug arrest will get past c&f. He'll be asked some questions, but that's not the worst that could happen. That's a fairly long period of time ago, assuming he's relatively young, and an arrest for an offense of that sort will probably come with some evidence that he's been treated for substance abuse.
The people who are really screwed are people who have stolen as adults (shoplifting might be excusable), committed financial crimes like securities fraud, committed perjury, or who have a long pattern of what look like habitual offenses. I have little sympathy for people who fall into these categories, and generally think they shouldn't be lawyers. |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:05 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge agreed. they have clients money in trust accounts. they WILL steal from them most likely. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978470) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:07 PM Author: canary becky how would someone "excuse" shoplifting? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978480) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:09 PM Author: Heady Chartreuse Electric Furnace Lodge depends how long ago, the person's age, and what the circumstances were. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978493) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:10 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park I mean, I don't think it would ever look good. But...say it happened when you were 19 and you're 27 now. I think the bar might be willing to accept that you were a stupid, immature fuck when you were a college freshman and that you've grown up a lot in the last 8 years.
A college student who was arrested for forging his roommate's signature on a check or for stealing money from his frat's social fund (I actually know of someone who did that) seems more abnormal and more likely to still be a shady fuck at 27, at least to me. |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:11 PM Author: rough-skinned school corn cake yeah, but you've got to admit that that's a pretty shitty, unscientific, crapshoot of a feeling to determine somebody's career (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978512) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:12 PM Author: curious mischievous nibblets trailer park Sure, but like I initially said, that's all we really have to go on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978516) |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:30 PM Author: rough-skinned school corn cake it's moderately relevant, if you constantly do shady shit that's bad, but the stuff they're likely looking at isn't relevant, we've all done enough bad shit to get in trouble if we'd been caught every time basically it's a front to make the profession seem better than it is |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 2:03 PM Author: Insane place of business university (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415809&forum_id=2#15978459) |