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BigLaw Partner Taking Questions Part IV
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:05 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Fire away ... if interested, use search function for previous installments.
I'll begin by saying that my first thread or two contained multiple posts by me suggesting that things were going to get a lot worse before they got better. Many viewed those posts with skepticism and many branded me as a pessimist; unfortunately, while I sincerely wish that I was wrong, those posts seem more realistic than pessimistic with each passing day. Interesting to note the number of firms that have laid off, delayed start dates, rescinded offers, and even cut salaries in recent weeks. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:06 PM Author: Mustard menage antidepressant drug in other words, you pwned their asses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794617) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:07 PM Author: Irradiated Shivering Milk advice for a current summer associate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794623) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:12 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Keep your head down ... unlike those previously in your shoes, you're going to have to earn this one ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794681) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:14 PM Author: Irradiated Shivering Milk i'm very earnest about wanting to be in a transactional practice. retarded? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794703) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:18 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease No. If that's what you want to do for your career, I wouldn't let current market conditions change your mind. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794741) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:19 PM Author: Irradiated Shivering Milk cool, that was my thought too. thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794758) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:33 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode I note that this partner will be employed regardless of your choice here. You, however, will not be so fortunate. Don't do transactional ITE.
Sincerely, Laid off transactional associate |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 1:04 PM Author: Cocky lascivious stain athletic conference LULZ.
- employed transactional associate |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:10 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode But for how long? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089454) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:15 PM Author: arousing pistol feces suggest some alternative professions I can enter into with a JD.
I was thinking maybe marketing advertising. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:17 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I have no idea. I'd just be bullshitting you if I told you how a JD may translate to marketing/advertising. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794731) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:27 PM Author: arousing pistol feces What about other professions?
People who quit law that you know. What did they end up doing? |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:31 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I don't know anyone who "quit law" for an entirely non-legal profession. People go in-house, enter academia, become lobbyists or politicians, etc. The only people I know who quit for good ended up retiring, becoming stay-at-home parents, or doing something completely crazy that doesn't fit into the mold of a standard profession. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794884) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:33 PM Author: arousing pistol feces I see. Ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794912) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:36 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm a litigator, so I don't know too many of those people, but I wouldn't really consider those "non-legal" professions of the kind being asked about here.
Examples of people leaving for one of our banking clients doesn't really help someone who has a JD but hasn't worked and isn't in a position to leave for one of our banking clients. I'm assuming the question here is "Assume I never work in a biglaw firm -- what else can I do with my JD?" |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:47 PM Author: arousing pistol feces I see.
That being said, in your personal opinion, if you were to recommend to somebody that was going to finish his JD but NOT work in the law, what would you recommend him doing? He is adamant. He will not get an LLM or any of that nonsense. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:49 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Why did this person go to law school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795107) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 10:27 PM Author: comical trailer park I didn't read any of this thread, but I agree that duke sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905964) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 3:15 PM Author: cracking jap Hi Duke,
I've been following your series for quite sometime now, and just wanted to say thank you --you're legit.
Questions: 1)Just took patent bar (no previous IP experience) and I want to go into IP Litigation. What should I do in/during ls to make myself a better candidate?
2)What are you toughts on state T1 school in general? Reason I ask is I'm struggling with going to state t1 @ full price (70k) vs T10 @ full price (190K). I have a T5 tech background.
3) You mentioned biglaw model is changing? Any idea what it may look like after the storm? |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:27 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease 1. Get good grades. Get good grades. Get good grades.
2. Depends on where you want to practice. I'm confused though ... are you thinking about transferring schools? Or are you just talking generally?
3. Not really sure what it will look like after the storm, but I'd like to see us emphasize summer recruiting less. And I think we can easily care less about "reputational risk" and whether we should be concerned about juniors leaving. |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 8:46 PM Author: pea-brained pearly hell idea he suggested whats your opinion of USC? partners in LA love us (latham/white&case/omm) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12192727) |
Date: May 21st, 2009 8:08 PM Author: White chest-beating police squad Are things looking any better yet for transactional practices? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794643) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:15 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Yes, but that doesn't mean much. Just because things are better doesn't mean things are as better as certain firms hoped they'd be. (i.e., maybe they only fired 20 people because they thought things would improve by 20% in coming months....but things have only improved by 10%. So are things better? Yes. Does that in any way mean good things? Not necessarily.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794711) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:08 PM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi Has the slowdown been more significant in any particular offices?
Please the following for stability/security, if you are able (exclude M&A since its NYC-centric)
NYC Los Angeles San Francisco Chicago Houston Atlanta |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:10 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease This isn't really a location specific issue. It's nation-wide, and you can just as easily argue that NYC/major markets are the place to be as you can argue that NYC/major markets have the most capacity to shed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794664) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:09 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum What % of your summers will get offers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794656) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:10 PM Author: Mustard menage antidepressant drug do you and your wife mate like GIRAFFES? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794667) |
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Date: May 27th, 2009 11:50 AM Author: transparent multi-colored ticket booth I saw two giraffes trying to fuck last time I went to the zoo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11833928) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:16 PM Author: Coral Rough-skinned Set Thoughts on revoking offers to 3L's? Fish and Richardson was the first major firm to do this today, but how many will follow? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794717) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:20 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease How many will follow? I hope close to none. I'd seriously consider leaving my firm if we did.
How many want to do so and wish they could? Tons.
If this was a purely economic decision and firms didn't have to consider the human element (i.e., if law firms only cared about the bottom line as so many of you think), countless firms would revoke 3L offers. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:22 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum shut the hell up. you aren't leaving $2 million/year behind over some emo hissy fit that would be 1000x worse than QE redskins guy. admit that you don't give a fuck about any associates past what fucking them over would do to your firm's reputation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794784) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:26 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I think we've previously established that you're not in the legal field and it's pretty pointless to engage in any substantive discussion with you about legal matters. Just letting you know that I'm accordingly ignoring your posts. Don't want you to think I'm missing them or ducking them because I can't keep up with your "insightful" banter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794819) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:29 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena good call. dude lives in his momma's basement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794847) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:29 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum This non-legal field guy pwned your retarded logic you dumb bitch. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794858) |
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Date: May 27th, 2009 11:51 AM Author: slippery tan locale I've only read a few posts in this thread, but you rarely pwn anyone. You're a fucking parrot, lacking any knowledge or insight into anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11833939) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:22 PM Author: Irradiated Shivering Milk "How many want to do so and wish they could? Tons."
it only takes one or two "market leaders" to do this and then it's acceptable. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:28 PM Author: Coral Rough-skinned Set This is my thought too. And we will undoubtedly see one or two market leaders do something similar. But maybe I'm being pessimistic... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794840) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:40 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Good thing Fish & Whatever has never been a leader at anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795015) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:54 PM Author: Coral Rough-skinned Set That's just not true. They've been amongst (the?) best IP firms for years.
You might think IP is a TTT market, but they're clearly a leader in that field. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:00 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Ok, great. Charmin is a leader of toiler paper, but it's still only useful for wiping your ass. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795210) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:23 PM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi Did you consider leaving your firm when it laid off first years? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794794) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:27 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Nice try.
Objection, assumes fact not in evidence. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:31 PM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi Fine, let me rephrase:
If your firm is considering recinding 3L offers, it has likely laid off junior associates and likley first years as well. You say you'd consider leaving if your firm cancelled 3L offers.
How much worse do you see ditching a 3L versus firing 1st yrs.? |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:34 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease In my opinion, rescinding 3L offers this late in the process is worse than any other response I have seen to the current mess. And it's not really close. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794914) |
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Date: May 24th, 2009 2:17 PM Author: Vigorous goyim but the third years are not starting for a year anyway at most places (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11812354) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 12:11 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease The difference between trying to look for a job when you theoretically have one currently and trying to look for a job when you don't have one currently cannot be overstated.
I've heard many people bitch and complain about firms not being more public in their layoffs/firings, but those people generally ignore the benefit to the associates in handling things in that manner. Just like there is a world of difference in interviewing for a job when you still work at your old firm and can provide the contact info for that firm, there is a world of difference in trying to find a job if you already have one if you're a 3L.
Good luck being an unemployed 3L in this market if you have dreams of starting in BIGLAW... |
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Date: May 24th, 2009 2:16 PM Author: Vigorous goyim offers are being quietly revoked
before I got the axe I heard my firm was sending letters to some transactional deferreds telling them to think about moving on |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:25 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Things are bad, but this is what's happening:
There are some terrible firms that are in major trouble. These are the trash firms that never should have been considered "biglaw" to begin with, but they achieved temporary prosperity due to the credit boom (rising tide, all boats, etc.). These trash firms (DLA Piper, Sonnashine (sp?), Latham, Mayer Brown, Fish & Richards) and other firms most of us have never heard of are imploding, which is why they're laying off/cutting salaries/pushing back start dates/etc.
Then there are some decent firms that are still fucking everyone over, not because they have to, but because they can. These are the firms that care nothing for their longterm reputations and are happy to wallow in the mud with the pigs to save a few bucks (Hello, S&C!). These firms are acting like trash firms but are actually ok. In other words, things aren't as bad as they seem once you get past the truly putrid firms. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:29 PM Author: arousing pistol feces Elaborate more on what makes a firm "trash" ? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794854) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:30 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum below V5 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794871) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:33 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Trash firms can come in many shapes and sizes, but here are some common features:
-The firm is a bastard merger child of other crap firms (DLA Piper, Mayer Brown, Jones Day);
-The firm developed a securities / hedge fund / M&A wing over the last few years;
-The firm has never been in the Vault 10 (and this is quite generous, since the Vault 10 includes Latham, DPW, Simpson and Debevoise);
-The firm has a history of layoffs or has failed to promptly meet salary bumps in good years;
-The firm has offices in all sorts of barren, far-flung hellholes, like Dubai, Thailand or Chicago. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:35 PM Author: arousing pistol feces That's harsh. But thank you for the information. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794952) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:29 PM Author: 180 Public Bath titcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794856) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:33 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I disagree strongly, but I hardly have a monopoly on opinions about the extent of the current troubles. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794899) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:36 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel You're a pretty insightful poster, but to think the state of biglaw is universally dire when annual PPP is still in the millions is simply wrong. Don't take this the wrong way but it's very likely that you are a member of a garbage trash firm. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but most partners at real firms that don't need to layoff half their associates do not have the time or inclination to make multiple several-hundred post XO threads. Hence you may be less informed about the state of real biglaw than you claim to be (but good luck at DLA Piper, I hope you don't get hit with another capital call). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794964) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:46 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease There are countless flaws in the reasoning used here, not the least of which is that partners are no different than associates in that we all have hours in the day when we're not billing and can do just about anything else in the world. It's somewhat humorous to see the leaps in logic that would be needed to conclude that me watching some TV and grabbing a beer while I post on this forum and unwind is somehow an indication that I work for a garbage trash firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795080) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:50 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Don't get so defensive; I'm sure your firm attracts the best and the brightest that Suffolk has to offer.
There are, of course, countless flaws in your own reasoning, not the least of which is the claim that I assumed, by your posting here, that partners never take time to relax. Of course they do; associates do most of the actual work anyway. But do I think that many biglaw partners post enormous running "questions" threads on xo? No. I tend to think they would rather do other things, as would the associates. Biglaw is draining and time-consuming no matter how you slice it. I'll be leaving soon, but you'll still be here, all night, taking questions. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:56 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I have little interest in continuing this line of argument. As stated before, I couldn't care less whether some random guy on the internet believes me or not. As further stated before, I post these threads every now and then because I think I have some information/experience others can benefit from, and I think I would have liked to have had the benefit of that information/experience when I was starting out in my career.
P.S. I don't work at DLA, but I'm pretty sure people at firms like that work as many hours as most of us at "non garbage trash firms" work ... the suggestion that I must work at a firm like that because THEY have more time to spend than I do is pretty absurd by itself. You're even more naive if you actually buy the bullshit that people at midlaw/lifestyle/non-V10/non-NYC/whatever firms work less. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:59 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel I don't listen to anything people at midlaw/lifestyle/non-V10/non-NYC/whatever firms say, much less buy their bullshit.
In any case, I seem to have thrown you off your game a bit, judging by the firestorm of defensive manuevers I've elicited. Maybe the DLA Piper comment was over the line, sorry. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:05 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease It's not a defensive maneuver to call you out for acting like a juvenile idiot. If you want to discuss things intelligently, let's do so ... you've demonstrated some level of insight and some ability to discuss things maturely. But I have little interest in engaging in any discussion who can't refrain from the "TTT firm!!!!" garbage. I'm sure there are many other threads on this forum where you can take your brilliant insight about "garbage trash firms." I assure you there isn't a metric in the industry where my firm can't hold its own. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795251) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:08 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Just relax; this is xo. If I hadn't accused you of working at a DLA Piper or a Mayer Brown we would never truly get to know one another. And as I mentioned previously, you're an insightful poster. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795287) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 5:44 PM Author: Exciting lay You are very wise. Have fun this summer, and during all the free time you will have being no offer pwn3d at whatever vault 100 firm you are summering at sport. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11802121) |
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Date: May 23rd, 2009 7:41 PM Author: Chestnut Knife LOL at responding to 174's posts like your answering interrogatories. "As further stated before," (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11808488) |
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Date: May 23rd, 2009 7:40 PM Author: Chestnut Knife god your prose is annoying (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11808479) |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 8:45 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles lemme guess, you thought of the most stinging insult you could hurl at a person who writes for a living, then you DROPPED IT LIKE ITS HOT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12078050) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:33 PM Author: Pontificating Clown this is just another way of saying that the top 10-15 firms will generally be more reticent to take the recruiting hit entailed by axing folks indiscriminately. but everyone already knew that (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794903) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:37 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum He actually said the exact opposite. He saying they can shitcan indiscriminately because they have an actual reputation that will last them unlike the trash firms that rode the bubble and will be doing slip and falls in 5 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794970) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:38 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel It's also another way of saying that things are not that bad at the real firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794997) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:44 PM Author: Pontificating Clown sure, that might be right in some sense if you ridiculously limit the scope of "real." but profits are down most places, often by a ton, and even at at least a few "real" firms. the partners at the top are just as greedy. the only constraint against the sort of layoffs seen elsewhere is worry about maintaining a recruiting edge once things pick up dramatically within the next few years (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795056) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:46 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Profts are down everywhere, but not by much at many firms. If PPP is still $2 mil or more the firm is basically fine. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795083) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:52 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease You're just making stuff up and have not shown that you have any idea what you're talking about. You just pulled that $2mm number out of your ass. I have no idea what Latham's PPP is, but I'm assuming its close to $2mm. I'm assuming they're not "basically fine" given your comments about them above? You haven't said anything yet on this thread that makes me think you have anything but a superficial understanding of firm economics (although that is more than what I can say about most associates). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795132) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:57 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Do we really think Latham is a good symbol for "most firms"? Latham is the Coudert Brothers of the credit crunch. Let's be more realistic as to the extent in which the Latham implosion sheds light on other firms' stability.
$2 mil may not be the correct number; I used it as a rough approximation, based on the PPP at places like Skadden, DPW, etc. Of course PPP isn't the only relevant concern, but I think it matters greatly-- and while 2008 PPP was pretty good at Latham and elsewhere, what will really be instructive is what 2009 PPP looks like. The firms that are still pulling in PPP of $2 mil (or 2.2 or 2.5 or whatever stable PPP approximation we could select) in 2009 are, on balance, fine. Will some firms have other problems and break the mold? Of course. Some firms will have stupidly opened an office in Abu Dhabi; others will lose key rainmakers. But then we tread into exceptions and, eventually, into the realm of the trash dump law firm. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:59 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Why are you equating $2 mm or $2.5 mm or with "stable PPP"? High PPP does not necessarily equal stable PPP. And even if it did, it would be absurd to assume that there are only a handful of stable firms in America. (There may only be a handful of elite firms in America, but stable doesn't mean elite either.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795204) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:06 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel That's why I said 2009 PPP will be very important. I wouldn't want to work at a firm with PPP under $2 mil right now; these "stable" firms you speak of are really not very stable at all.
Here's my basic point, above all of the nonsense that has been spread around this thread: the trash is burning, and this largely explains the layoffs/deferred start dates/etc. The elite firms are fine. Some elite firms are using the economy as an excuse to ramrod associates. These elite firms are not in any serious economic trouble at all and are just using the temporary perceived cover of a bad economy to fuck people over. That's it. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:12 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease You're just using circular reasoning to a large extent. I don't know who you are or your background, but I highly doubt you were calling Latham trash a year or two ago. It was (and is still considered by many) to be an elite, or at least stable, firm. But given their recent actions, you are labeling them as trash. All you're now saying is we need to look at 2009 numbers to determine who is stable/elite and who isn't. Yes, I too can tell you in 2010 who the stable firms in 2009 were. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795326) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:17 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel Strangely enough, I have always considered all but about 4 or 5 firms to be trash (Latham isn't one of those 4 or 5). Did I know it would implode? Of course not. But Latham has always reeked of striverism and new money, and the "chill" culture is simply bound to attract imbeciles. Skadden, too (new money, not chill)-- although I now concede that I may have prejudged them.
The point isn't to look back in 2010 and see who was stable in 2009. The point is that the firms that do mostly ok in 2009 will continue to do mostly ok (and probably better) in 2010, 2011, 2012, etc. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:19 PM Author: Pontificating Clown "but I highly doubt you were calling Latham trash a year or two ago"
he probably was. i'd guess 174 works at a cravath equivalent, of which there are just a few
of course, a couple years ago, no one was readily negatively distinguishing latham from places like cleary |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 5:50 PM Author: Exciting lay id guess he is part of teh leet top 25% fordham grads working at s&c - y'know, the ones part of the largest summer classes in history and soon to be large class pwn3d for "performance"
but that is just a guess. he seems particularly obsessed with what his employers make.... |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 1:05 PM Author: Contagious filthy tanning salon you sound jealous (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11818349) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:28 PM Author: vivacious mildly autistic university foreskin Is it wrong for me to resent women who take maternity leave? Truth told, partners really look down on that dont they? Or at the very least, the stigma is attached and you question their dedication.
Same goes for paternity leave i guess, but at least the dude doesnt get fat and cranky. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:31 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum Paternity leave is obvious flame. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794878) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:40 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Yes, it's wrong for you to resent women who take maternity leave. Sexism aside, it's stupid to resent them for that. I'd much rather bill 300 hours a month for the next 3 months than have to go through childbirth. I'd never resent someone for being on maternity leave. (Thinking of people in the Caymans while I'm stuck in trial, on the other hand...) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795008) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:29 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena at what point do you think the average biglaw associate actually starts adding value? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794862) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:37 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum LOL @ this flame. 1st years are profitable. Tiny hit on SAs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794985) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:39 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena i'm talking about competence not profitability. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795001) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:40 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum Wtf? They are sufficiently competent in the shit they ask 1st years to do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795010) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:41 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena how about you stare at the walls of your mom's basement and let us grownups dish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795024) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:42 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum Your question makes no sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795040) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:45 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena i'm not surprised you don't get my point given that the extent of your employment is weeding you parent's yard for spending money. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795071) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 1:26 PM Author: low-t office party of the first part "adding value" as in bringing in profit or doing meaningful work?
as far as profit goes, in a normal economy, the idea that juniors cost more than the revenue they bring in is a myth, so all juniors are "adding value" from day 1.
if "adding value" is doing meaningful work, the average/good is probably around 9 months-year, the better ones 3-6 months in. the bad ones don't do any meaningful work for years. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 1:29 PM Author: Hairraiser dun bbw striped hyena i was aiming for the latter, and this is pretty much in line with my thinking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11800592) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:37 PM Author: twinkling background story candlestick maker (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11794981) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:48 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put the ability to speak Chinese on the top 100 list of things I'd care about in a potential new hire... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795103) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:52 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel What about the mega-merger crap firms with offices spewn all across China? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795137) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:57 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease He'd have to ask someone at one of those mega-merger crap firms, I suppose. I said I personally couldn't care less about that, and you'll never convince me that a foreign language adds anything too measurable at the junior associate level. (I don't practice in Texas, but do firms there really care that you speak Spanish? I've never thought about foreign language proficiency in making hiring decisions.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795181) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:10 PM Author: snowy internal respiration incel I agree; foreign language is largely worthless, and I'm glad to see that you don't work at a buyout garbage firm. I just wondered what you would say. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795311) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 10:51 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode Are you all done with this circle jerk? Of course being multi-lingual doesn't matter in lit. However, for transactional it can be very important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11796393) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 2:15 AM Author: 180 Public Bath anyone doing a transnational deal can speak at least some engrish on the conference calls. if you're referring to serving a client in a foreign country i could see the value to it but other than that it doesnt seem that big a deal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11798778) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 1:19 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode "anyone doing a transnational deal can speak at least some engrish on the conference calls"
Sure. But a lot of business isn't conducted in english and these individuals don't really want to do everything in english just because their lawyer only speaks one language. Its easier to just hire another counsel. In addition, a lot of documents aren't in english to begin with.
"if you're referring to serving a client in a foreign country i could see the value to it but other than that it doesnt seem that big a deal"
You realize that most of the world doesn't, in fact, speak english but that these places nevertheless have deals? |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 3:02 PM Author: Adventurous Wine Theatre Rigor Speaking another language served you so well, after all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11801185) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 3:21 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode Unfair. My language happens to be of a region that totally tanked. If my language was say, Chinese, I'd have a job right now.
In any event, consider this: Mandy got biglaw because of her knowledge of Russian. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:19 PM Author: Amethyst native Why would a litigation lawyer care about foreign languages anyway? I'm sure the answer would be different from a transactional attorney. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795397) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 10:52 PM Author: Blathering big marketing idea abode TI, OC, TCR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11796403) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 8:41 PM Author: Bossy appetizing legal warrant theater would I fit into your firm culture? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795020) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:01 PM Author: Histrionic Unhinged Twinkling Uncleanness Pisswyrm Hell, no. I saw plenty of PRE-Colonialist-African-Studies-Bi-White-Chicks in biglaw, but no post-colonialist ones. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795215) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:02 PM Author: Cream Racy Fortuitous Meteor Lodge If you were a graduating 3L in this economy, would you still begin your career in BIGLAW, or would you do something else for the time being (gov't, prosecutor, etc.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795222) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:06 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Wouldn't change a thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795264) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:32 PM Author: Pontificating Clown if i didn't get an offer this summer, what would you recommend doing? i'd like to have a shot at doing biglaw for a bit in a few years. don't want to apply for clerkships while in school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795489) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 12:04 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Re-interview and try getting a biglaw job wherever you can? It is really, really hard to break into biglaw if you didn't start there (not counting clerkship type activities). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11818073) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:02 PM Author: vermilion parlour chad will you contribute to this thread?
http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=971140&mc=122&forum_id=2 |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:08 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Just skimmed it. Interesting thread with some good responses. I'm not sure I have much to add, and I really don't want to get sucked into posting on this board regularly. I've only ever posted on the threads I've started, and would like to continue limiting myself to that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795286) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 3:36 AM Author: vermilion parlour chad aka you cannot reveal your wiley partner research secrets. fair enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11799148) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:13 PM Author: maroon macaca pocket flask When you hire AUSAs, do they ever get hired as partners at your firm? Or do they tyically have to do a couple of years as a senior associate? Also, is it crucial for AUSAs that want to lateral back to firms to have done white collar work at the USAO? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795340) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:16 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Depends. Yes, we have had people from the USAO join us as partners. No, white collar experience is not crucial ... unless, of course, you want to join the white collar practice area. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795370) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:24 PM Author: maroon macaca pocket flask Interesting. Does whether you get hired as an associate v. lateral depend mainly on age? Or do you do more of a substantive review?
At my firm, almost all the former criminal AUSAs were in white collar - we have very few anywhere else.
Thanks for the input. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:26 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Age, experience, reputation, ability to bring in clients, ability to bring in clients.
And yes, almost all are white collar. But that's not what you asked. |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:39 PM Author: maroon macaca pocket flask Understood, thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795555) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:41 PM Author: Black main people thoughts on taking an optional deferral to do public interest? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795577) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 11:57 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Your thoughts are as good as mine. I wouldn't have done it if I was given that option. But I'm increasingly being told by my friends and colleagues that firms are serious about not holding it against people who defer. So who knows...maybe I'm wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11818030) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 9:45 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal General advice for a rising T10 2L? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795634) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 12:01 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Depends on your grades, I suppose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11818053) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 10:13 PM Author: elite bawdyhouse azn What are your thoughts on the marketability of the survivors (e.g., clerks, non-laid off associates, 3L's with short periods of deferral, etc.) of this downturn when things pick back up? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11795955) |
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Date: May 21st, 2009 10:56 PM Author: cerebral degenerate forum He's answered this in the previous 3 threads. Cliff notes: you ain't getting back in BIGLAW. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11796469) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 9:12 PM Author: elite bawdyhouse azn Re-read the question broseph. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11803353) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 12:02 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm not sure you'd be that much more marketable just based on your "survivor" status.
P.S. I'm not sure I'd call clerks and 3Ls with short periods of deferral survivors... |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:15 AM Author: cheese-eating buff corner stock car Reminder: Biglaw partners are subhuman but are too socially retarded to even realize this. The world would be a much better place if they all just killed themselves. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11797353) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:16 AM Author: Spectacular Juggernaut Are you an insufferable douchebag with bad taste, a dim wit and only a career to be proud of? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11797362) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 12:06 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm sure many consider me an insufferable douchebag; thankfully, I wasn't also cursed with taste, a dim wit, and only a career to be proud of... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11818079) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2009 2:13 PM Author: Misanthropic trump supporter plaza Do associates from the top few firms (Cravath, S&C, DPW, etc.) have a better chance of making partner at lower ranked firms after lateraling than the associates who started at the lower ranked firms? If you were an associate at one of those firms and knew that, statistically speaking, your odds of making partner are low, what would you be angling to do after 2-3 years?
Edit: I'm talking about litigation, BTW. |
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Date: May 24th, 2009 7:45 AM Author: Exciting lay Keep in mind when you are interviewing as say a 2-3 year, firms will almost invariably assume you have been "asked to leave." Stupid point of view, but that is the way it works. In a hot market, firms will roll the dice, but now? Those recently fired at the vault ten are basically fucked unless they go to small or midlaw.
Good luck.
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Date: May 24th, 2009 2:06 PM Author: Misanthropic trump supporter plaza Luckily by the time that I get asked to leave (or want to leave on my own) the market should be better. Anyway, bump in case the partner comes back. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11812294) |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 11:56 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease (As always, I'll speak generally here...don't want to comment on how many people can/may get to our firm from "higher ranked" firms...and don't want to comment on our policy regarding laterals.)
The answer to your question, like many, is "it depends on who you ask." I think I would personally tend to place a premium on people that are home-grown and have come up through the ranks. On the other hand, I think there is no denying that people who start at America's most elite firms are generally well-trained and are used to the rigors of "BIGLAW" more than those at many lower ranked firms. Ultimately, I'm not sure it matters that much where you start. A firm would be stupid to promote you to partner without making you prove yourself for a few years to make sure you are a good fit. And if you laterally in as a 3rd year, and have been here for a long time and established yourself as a star, I'm not sure why it would matter where you started.
As for your second question, I think the odds of making partner at any firm are low. I think its a pretty stupid idea to change firms for a few percentage point difference in partnership prospect years down the road. |
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Date: May 25th, 2009 3:05 PM Author: Chestnut Knife Yet people from Cravath and other V5s do it all the time. I do agree that Skadden third years are pretty stupid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11819166) |
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Date: May 26th, 2009 6:47 AM Author: Misanthropic trump supporter plaza "I think its a pretty stupid idea to change firms for a few percentage point difference in partnership prospect years down the road."
I guess I was asking about your perceptions about other exit options--AUSA, in-house, smaller firm, etc. But I'm not sure why you say this--the chances of making partner at a lower-ranked firm are WAY higher than those at Cravath, DPW, etc., if you just look at the numbers. No one makes partner at those top firms. But thanks for your posts--they're definitely helpful. |
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Date: May 26th, 2009 8:58 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease "But I'm not sure why you say this--the chances of making partner at a lower-ranked firm are WAY higher than those at Cravath, DPW, etc., if you just look at the numbers."
I'd love to see the numbers on this ... to the contrary, I think some of the most "elite" firms are some of the least leveraged. Exactly how many people per year are these "lower ranked" firms promoting to partner? |
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Date: May 26th, 2009 9:55 PM Author: chartreuse crackhouse laser beams some yes, but like cravath used to have 5 associates per partner at least. many lesser firms but still in the amlaw 100 are more like 2 per partner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11830187) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 9:37 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Most of those firms on the lower end also have a two-tiered partnership structure. I'd be pretty shocked if the equity partner/associate ratio at those firms was much better. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905601) |
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Date: May 27th, 2009 11:46 AM Author: Misanthropic trump supporter plaza Look on their websites. Cravath has about 400 associates and 90 partners. Davis Polk has 166 partners and 473 associates. Each of them make about 4 partners a year and take on about 100-130 summer associates. And most of the summers are presumably very good. What rational incoming associate would think that he/she has a good chance of making partner at such a firm?
Yeah, there are some elite firms with better numbers (Wachtell, Williams and Conolly). But these firms' numbers are pretty bad.
On the lower ranked firms, it varies. Some are almost as leveraged as the top NY firms; others have closer to a 1-1 ratio. |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 9:39 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease What lower ranked firms have close to a 1-1 ratio? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905622) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 9:41 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease No questions about the summer? I'm assuming most posters on this forum are law students, not associates, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905644) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 9:55 PM Author: painfully honest curious orchestra pit skinny woman How does your firm view state supreme court clerks compared to fed dist? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905760) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 9:59 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Eh, depends on the state/district I suppose. There isn't much difference, but I prefer federal court clerkships. At any large firm, you're going to have countless cases before federal district courts, and I'd prefer that my associates have that experience rather than a state supreme court clerkship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905794) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 11:01 PM Author: Chrome Stead how do you view federal COA clerkship v. district clerkship? are COA clerks really more highly demanded by firms? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11906221) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:26 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Yes, of course. Is there anyone who had the option to do a COA clerkship who did a district court clerkship? Maybe a few exceptions like SDNY would apply, but other than that, I'm pretty sure COA clerks have a more impressive resume and were more highly sought out by judges (just like they'd be more highly sought out by us). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986043) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 10:09 PM Author: marvelous lilac therapy Scenario:
Firm with 20-25 summers at non-NYC Biglaw shop. Most of us are regularly working 10 hour days on a mix of lit/corp assignments. No one is really gunning, just a lot of work to go around. Not complaining at all, just intrigued. What is the more likely scenario:
1) Sign that things are actually picking up 2) Firm was forced to lay off too many associates and really needs the grunt labor |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 11:07 PM Author: Abnormal Magical Piazza Windowlicker Real assignments or memos? Summers often get a lot of work for the first six weeks or so and then the work really drops off. If you are asking for work in the second half of the summer and getting only non-billable matters, that might be a sign that things are still slow. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11906302) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:24 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease The first response to this question is largely true.
But if you force me to answer, I'll say the answer may very well be a combination of 1 and 2, as well as some of 3) clients are pushing back on bills and won't pay for real associate time...so we're giving you guys more "real work" than we typically would. |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 10:24 PM Author: slippery tan locale We're getting old. Many of us are associates -- just like you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905933) |
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Date: June 4th, 2009 10:13 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy is it heard of for associates to work in nyc biglaw appellate practice? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11905879) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:21 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I don't know what this means. Can associates do appellate work? Of course. Can any associates do only appellate work in any NYC biglaw firm? You could clerk on the Supreme Court and you still aren't going to do only appellate work when you start of at any biglaw firm I'm aware of. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986014) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 10:53 AM Author: Underhanded Sick Parlor Mayer Brown actually has an appellate practice group in NYC. They mostly only recruit T6 LR people though.
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Date: June 4th, 2009 10:38 PM Author: Nofapping resort Is your firm hiring anyone right now? If so, please describe them. (Also, specifically, are you hiring anyone with 1-3 years of experience?) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11906047) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:23 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease No, we're not hiring anyone, not even appellate clerks (I'm sure we'll make an exception for Supreme Court clerks if they're interested). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986024) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:29 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy which nyc gov't law agency (e.g. KC/NY-DA, NYC LD, NYAGO) has the best reputation in terms of prestige / quality of lawyers? esp. in terms of taking them into biglaw after they've been there a couple years? |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:43 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy *crickets* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986485) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:58 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm not sure there's much of a difference. I've always been partial to former prosecutors and I would personally work at the DA's office if given those three options, but to be honest, we rarely go the state court route when hiring former prosecutors. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986575) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:59 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy ok. ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986581) |
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Date: June 13th, 2009 11:31 PM Author: Electric domesticated market How do you feel about workflow over the next 8-10 months?
Also - I see you softened your stance on how I was an idiot for "even asking" whether to take a deferral. Thhhbbbbppppttt! |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:14 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease The amount of work isn't as much of a problem as clients paying for the same work they used to pay for before.
And I don't know what you mean by the second part of your post. I still wouldn't defer if I was faced with that dilemma. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:18 AM Author: Electric domesticated market Will incoming 3Ls have enough work to do to a) not get fired and b) learn how to be a lawyer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986375) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:19 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease In litigation? Undoubtedly, at least at my firm. In something like real estate? Who knows. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986380) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:09 AM Author: razzmatazz seedy area doctorate Subject: CSM What advice would you give to an incoming Cravath associate regarding the deferral ($80,000, 1K a month in loan repayment, plus health insurance). Should they take it? Or should they be worried that there will not be a job when they come back after a year? Does foregoing that one year of experience matter in the big picture? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986346) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:17 AM Author: Electric domesticated market *ducks* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986370) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:35 AM Author: Trip startled haunted graveyard friendly grandma What advice do you have for recent graduates with good grades from a pretty good school, but with no job? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986446) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:19 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I think foregoing a year of experience at the junior level matters a lot. If given the choice, I would personally start sooner rather than later.
As for CSM, yeesh ... talk about the proverbial shockwaves. As I have now said on a number of occasions (although perhaps more so in my other threads), things will get worse before they get better. And no, I'm not sure any firm is truly immune from the effects of the economy and the changes we are all seeing. Maybe the CSM moves from last week will stop the stupidity of some of the "you must work at a TTT firm in a second-tier market!!!" retorts. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:21 AM Author: Electric domesticated market CSM is in unique spot: they have 150 incoming associates, which was accidental even when they thought the market was hot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986387) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:26 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease If you scroll up, someone else in this thread was going on and on about how firms that have profits per partner of around $2 million and firms that haven't opened a million offices in crappy locations are just fine. Well, Cravath is one of the oldest, most prestigious, and most profitable firms in the entire country, and it only has offices in the two financial capitals of the world. And it just pushed off an entire class a year and a half before they were supposed to start. If you think Cravath is in a uniquely bad position, I'm not sure what to tell you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986405) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:36 AM Author: Trip startled haunted graveyard friendly grandma What advice do you have for recent graduates with good grades from a pretty good school, but with no job? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986451) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:42 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Self-reflect and figure out what you want to do with your life. And if the answer is "work in a big firm," ask yourself why. There are far too many people in this profession who mindlessly follow a set path without evaluating all the options and truly reflecting on what lies ahead.
I say that only because a significant number of the people who are so upset about not having a biglaw option anymore would probably not succeed here anyway. [I don't mean that in a bad way, most people aren't cut out for this.] More than likely, you'd either be mediocre at this profession or hate it (and for countless people, a combination of both). And if this was 5 years ago, you'd be looking to get out of here and move on a few years into starting here. So what exactly are so many so distraught over? Figure out what you'd truly be happy doing as a career, do it sooner rather than later, and go down that path.
If the answer is that you truly want to be a bigfirm lawyer, look to clerk or start at a mid-level firm (in a secondary market if necessary). |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:50 AM Author: Trip startled haunted graveyard friendly grandma Yes, but you agree that it is hard to know if you will be mediocre at something, or hate it, until you have some opportunity to experience it. It's easy to be sanctimonious to recent graduates and tell them that they should figure out what they would be happy doing and go do that when you are already a wealthy, successful attorney.
To answer your question, I would like to earn a comfortable salary and do intellectually stimulating work. If you know of any other options, besides large law firms, that offer that opportunity to recent graduates, then I am all ears... |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:01 AM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi consulting? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986589) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:01 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Yes, of course. And I didn't mean to be sanctimonious. Simply saying that whether people will say it out loud or not, plenty of people know coming in that they will only be staying for a few years. In fact, even years ago, a MAJORITY of my law school classmates knew they didn't want to stay at a large law firm their whole career. I was addressing those people who are in the "I'll only do this for 1-4 years and then move on" camp.
Anyway, depends on where you're looking. There are plenty of places in America where you can go do stimulating work and have a nice lifestyle, especially with good grades from a good school. But almost no one is fully open geographically (not saying they should be open to move to moving to middle america...just saying that you need to figure out what you're willing to sacrifice.) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:07 AM Author: Trip startled haunted graveyard friendly grandma Well, I am not one of those people. I am hungry for success in this profession. I actually enjoy research and writing, I like solving legal problems. For whatever reason, I haven't interviewed all that well, and it has cost me.
If you're interested I can send you my resume. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:09 AM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi There's a typo in your cover letter.
If *you're* interested I can send you my resume. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:12 AM Author: Trip startled haunted graveyard friendly grandma Hey, it's late... *sheepish grin* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986650) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:06 AM Author: Electric domesticated market I'm not sure what this means. Sure, other firms are in bad positions too. Cravath is in a uniquely bad postion, among the most prestigious and most profitable firms (its peer firms), for having (accidentally and egrigiously) overhired for two straight classes. This is the chief cause of their need to push back associates. It is not a situation that many of the other top firms face to the same degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986610) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:46 AM Author: razzmatazz seedy area doctorate Thanks for the reply. Quick clarification on foregoing junior experience - I was concerned that since the firm is "over-staffed" due to a lack of attrition a first year will get less meaningful experience since less work will trickle down (and a year of diligence isn't that helpful). Whereas, if you start next year with a small class plus another year hopefully making a difference in the economy - it would be a better time to begin a legal career. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986504) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:53 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Eh, its a crapshoot. I'm not sure there is a right answer here that applies to every firm. All things being equal, I'd still start sooner rather than later.
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:55 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease By the way, economic reasons aside, one of the main reasons I keep saying I would want to start ASAP if I was given the option to defer is that I WANT TO BE IN THIS PROFESSION.
It is maddening/sad when I can tell who will hate their chosen profession even before those people have figured that out themselves. Let me put it to you guys this way -- after TWENTY YEARS of schooling, if a large part of you isn't clamoring to start your job as soon as possible, you will not enjoy the next few years of your life and you are doomed to be miserable.
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:09 AM Author: Talented Fishy Keepsake Machete I don't necessarily disagree that someone who spends 27 years in school and isn't looking forward to doing something at least moderately productive and earning a paycheck is probably not going to like having a job, but why do you think that is specific to this profession?
And why do you think most people who are miserable working at a large law firm, or even any significant minority who are miserable working at a large law firm, are so depressed because they did not look forward to ending their time in school and getting a job?
This does not strike me as even making the top 100 reasons why law students are unhappy when working at a large law firm. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:12 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease The attitude and mindset you bring to the table counts for a lot. Given how hard we work and the stress we're in, you need to love doing what we do to survive with your sanity intact. If you don't come in loving this stuff, you sure as hell aren't going to learn to love it working 60 hours a week. And if you don't come in with a mindset that says 'I really want to do this, even though I know it will be really hard and tiring at times,' you probably aren't going to deal with the hours and stress very well. For better or worse, I think people can usually tell within the first few months whether they are cut out for this lifestyle/profession. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11988966) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:56 PM Author: Talented Fishy Keepsake Machete I think this is a different point than what you said above (though maybe you meant to make this point above). In any event, I don't disagree with it. Of course, the problem is that it is absurd to have a system set up where people who come out of college have to plunk down tens of thousands for three years of education and after their first they commit to a firm and then they are really stuck, given their debt, at a firm.
Basically, the system is messed up (pretty much everyone knows that) and maybe we'll get lucky and at least long term something good will come out of this mess. Given how shameless the ABA has been in promoting MORE attorneys and doing nothing to curb tuition or to turn the third year into a more valuable and less expensive proposition (e.g. an internship where students pay nothing and instead get paid $30k to $40k).
Firms could lower starting salaries, clients would be happier as would newly minted attorneys. Only the schools and the firms that actually want the associates to feel stuck for those first few years lose out.
But again, between the ABA and money-grubbing partners who care about nothing other than themselves we are stuck, at least for now, with an abysmal profession devoid of leadership.
So that's why, if you don't realize it (you probably do), we wind up with so many new attorneys who aren't cut out for it and don't want it but are stuck with it anyway. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 12:56 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy i have no knowledge of, nor interest in, financial markets. what's the best practice area for me? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986569) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:01 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Litigation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986591) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:06 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy are there different subsections within litigation practices? i am very interested in litigation, but more from the research/writing side. i am non-alpha, non-aggressive, and dislike face-to-face confrontation/negotiation. pls advise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986605) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:40 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy bumph? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989150) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:42 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Yes, of course. There are countless different sub-sections in litigation...IP, securities, white-collar, products liability, appellate, the list goes on and on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989165) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:49 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy my question was less about practice area and more about the work itself. how much room for growth or whatever is there in litigation for someone who does not want to be a "litigator" per se, but more of the "brains" behind the operation (more research/writing as opposed to interviews, depositions, trials, etc) for example, my ideal type of work is appellate work, but that's not something i'd be able to do in biglaw until after X amount of years, if then. but how much opportunity is there for young associates in the litigation departments to do meaningful work along similar lines? |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 7:55 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy attn: (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037892) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:00 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease You can be a great associate without having the personality needed to be a great litigator/trial lawyer. It's much tougher to be a great partner if you don't have that personality.
There are plenty of people who I think would make great associates, but who pretty clearly aren't going to do very well at the higher ranks.
Associates rarely appreciate the difference, and it is my humble opinion that if more people appreciated this difference, there would be less complaining from folks who can't figure out why they got great reviews as junior associates but weren't promoted up the ladder. |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:02 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy ty. this is exactly what i figured. so for someone like that, i guess the better career path is gov't? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037936) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:12 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Perhaps, although I'm not sure you can be truly elite in any field if you have major personality flaws. But I don't really know ... I mean, if you're too scared to face biglaw partners when they're on the same side as you, what makes you think you'll be an effective advocate when biglaw partners are adverse to you? Having said that, I have seen plenty of people grow a set of balls when they've got the badge/power of the government behind them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12038001) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:19 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy it's not so much "growing a pair" - I'm actually fairly confident that if that's what my job calls for i can do it, and be good at it too. but that doesn't mean i like the general mentality, arrogance and cockiness of a lot of biglaw litigators, which totally turns me off (or, at least their coming across that way in court). but what i was mainly referring to in my post was more for the general type of work - i really would rather be doing research/writing than taking depositions or examining witnesses on the stand, or whatever. the "brains" as opposed the "brawn" if you will - something there doesn't seem to be much of "niche" for beyond junior associateship |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:19 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Your post reads as if you have a horrible lack of understanding of what litigators actually do ... and your posts make me doubt whether you've even seen biglaw litigators in court, let alone seen what they do on a daily basis. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062242) |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:45 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy i don't have an understanding of what litigators actually do. i'm posting in this thread because i'd like to learn exactly that. i do not know nor have I seen what they do on a daily basis. if you could enlighten me, i'd really appreciate it. really. i have seen biglaw litigators in court. only once though, so I know full well that they were not representative of all litigators. they were from one of the most higly regarded litigation firms in the country. i watched them for three days. one partner, two associates. it really turned me off. they were cocky, arrogant, unprofessional, whiny, and disrespectful. i know that i shouldn't base my idea of biglaw litigators on their behavior. but that's been my only exposure to them so far, and it's hard for me to shake that image. |
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Date: June 26th, 2009 12:08 AM Author: cheese-eating buff corner stock car Oh please. Its usually the exact opposite. Most partners are socially retarded weirdoes who put off almost everyone they come in contact with. Problem is that they are too socially unaware to realize this so they go around thinking that their financials success somehow implies good with people.
Bill gates has a trillion dollars and immeasurable success, but also has aspergers.
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:11 PM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi Could you describe this point in greater detail?
You can be a great associate without having the personality needed to be a great litigator/trial lawyer. It's much tougher to be a great partner if you don't have that personality. |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:15 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'm not sure I can articulate it too well right now ... let's just say you need to have "it" ...
In a significant number of cases, I can tell you within a few months, if not a few weeks, whether that person could ever make partner here. That is a completely different question from whether or not that associate can be a very good associate in terms of developing fundamental junior-level skills. |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 9:45 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles what are the fundamental junior-level skills (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12078603) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:10 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I think the ability to "get it" and be sharp without needing to be spoon fed things is most important ... although that's probably not a skill you can teach/learn. But whether its research and writing, which I think is the most fundamental junior-level skill, or just doing document review ... some people get it, some don't. And I don't mean research and writing in the 1L sense. I mean someone who has some instincts and ability to figure out the big picture, understand what works and what doesn't, understand how a discreet thing they're working on fits into the overall strategy. Even doing a good job on an assignment isn't good enough for me to truly respect an associate ... I don't just want assignment takers ... I want something more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089452) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:28 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles thanks for the elaboration. when you think back to how you were as a first and second year, were you your own ideal associate? my partners say its all about initiative.
Btw, do you have a lot of portable business? |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:15 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I think I was always very highly regarded coming up the ranks. Was I the ideal associate? No, I'd do it even better if I had to do it over again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090076) |
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Date: June 26th, 2009 1:53 AM Author: beady-eyed kitchen pozpig If good junior associates have "it."
What is the equivalent for determining whether a person can ever be partner?
I assume that partners have "it" and then some. What is the extra oomph that separates good associates who are asked to leave from those who make partner?
Also, have you seen clients scrutinizing Junior associate time more and more in this economy, and does it correlate at all to pedigree? |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:23 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease An ability to run a case, for one. Just look around the associate ranks at your own firm, and imagine some of those associates running a case on their own...
Yes, of course clients are scrutinizing the bill more. No, I can't imagine it relates even remotely to "pedigree," whatever that means. I've heard just about every excuse from clients who want to avoid paying a bill, but I don't think any client would be stupid enough to challenge an associate's billing because he came from ____ school instead of ____ school. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:05 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Time to put away the laptop and turn in, but people should feel free to post questions. I'll continue checking back in responding to questions; as previously stated, I don't read this board except for the threads I started...so I won't be addressing any topics on other threads. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986601) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 1:30 AM Author: metal odious international law enforcement agency stage do you think every firm will push back 09 summers to 2011? does it seem like your firm will (i.e. are your partners seriously considering it)? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11986730) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:13 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Every firm? No. Many firms? Yes.
I don't/didn't have any input into what we will or will not do. Had I been omnipotent ruler of biglaw, I'd probably consider getting rid of the summer hiring model in its entirety. It's a bit absurd for us to be hiring people based on one year of law school grades and two years before we actually need them. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 4:03 AM Author: carmine embarrassed to the bone library toaster Three questions:
1) What do you make of all the recent hoopla about how "The biglaw model is dying/changing/evolving?" It doesn't seem far-fetched given that we've seen many firms recently move away from lockstep compensation, go to hours-based pay, and/or institute salary cuts. Temporary moves in response to sudden client tight-fistedness, or the beginning of a sea change?
2) Did firms generally do layoffs "right," in the sense that they adjusted enough, or do you see another round of layoffs coming again in the near future? Obviously you don't have even close to 100% of the info you need, so I'm just asking you to speculate based on what you do know, and if at all possible, to share your reasoning.
3) People who fail the bar exam this year - fired on the spot, or given the customary second chance?
Cheers.
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:16 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease 1) Beginning of a sea change.
2) I think firms generally (and hopefully) got it right the first time around. The problem, of course, is that the natural attrition that is built into retention models simply doesn't exist these days.
3) Given the customary second chance, but probably gets you on the automatic shortlist of people to be performanced out. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 9:48 AM Author: supple khaki space Subject: Being in court If I want to be in court arguing motions and participating in trials as much as possible, where should I look? Any recommendations as to which big firms/ mid-size firms/ small firms are known for this? Do you think I should try to get a government job instead?
Also, why are plaintiffs' firms generally less prestigious? And if I want to be a class action plaintiffs lawyer, would going to biglaw out of school be a foolish choice? |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:19 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Go be a prosecutor if you want to be in court and do trial work.
Plaintiffs' firms are generally less prestigious for the same reason personal injury lawyers are generally less pretentious. |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 9:48 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles go work for a well-respected, insanely busy solo who has wayyy too much on his/her plate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12078658) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:20 PM Author: Green home puppy Can I go home yet? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989027) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:22 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Sure, go home and work from home like I am. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989034) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:28 PM Author: Green home puppy When I work from home my wife asks me to do stuff and my dog harasses me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989082) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:37 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease True story -- growing up, I used to live next to a guy who had a bumper sticker saying "wife and dog missing - reward for dog" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989127) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:53 PM Author: Green home puppy Sounds about right.
Although she'll get the dog too. Bitch. |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:23 PM Author: Electric domesticated market What do you think of bankruptcy as a practice area? Would it be easy to transition to straight lit from there? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989046) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:27 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease What do you mean by transition into lit? Start off in bk and then switch practice areas a few years in? Why would you want to do that? I'm assuming starting in litigation is not an option? I'm not sure transitioning practice areas is ever easy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989071) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:29 PM Author: Electric domesticated market If you start in bankruptcy and don't like it I'm wondering how easy it is to change to lit. Maybe not a few years in, more like 1 or 2. I'm wondering whether it is more possible since you can work on bankruptcy litigation in bankruptcy and it seems like some skills would be transferrable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989085) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:34 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease To be completely honest, I want no part of any associate who switched into my department from another one. If you were great in bankruptcy, why would you want to switch to something new? I don't care how many skills transfer, you're going to be way behind the curve relative to people in your year who started in litigation. And if you were mediocre in bankruptcy, I don't want you anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989110) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 2:36 PM Author: Electric domesticated market Okay. Theoretically you'd want to switch because what you liked about it/were best at was the litigation aspect: research and writing. But I see why you would be behind the curve. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989121) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 3:05 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal Update: advice for rising t10 2L around 3.5? Interested in Chicago/NYC. Is splitting totally dead? What about 2 offices of same firm? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989302) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 7:57 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Every firm is slashing summer class sizes and offers are going to be hard to come by ... I'm not sure too many people are going to be able to split (between two different firms). I don't see why any large firm would have a problem with you splitting across different offices. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037909) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 3:30 PM Author: Glittery location love of her life In this economy, what is the smarter long-term career choice for a rising 3L who wants to litigate: DOJ Honors or a V20 firm? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989441) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 3:33 PM Author: Motley indigo nursing home fanboi I think that's a no-brainer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#11989464) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 7:55 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I'd say DOJ Honors, but I'm not sure the answer is much different just because of "this economy." Now, if you'd said, smarter choice for someone who wanted to make money, I'd suggest the V20 firm (maybe). But if you just care about litigation experience, it's a no-brainer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037896) |
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Date: June 14th, 2009 3:37 PM Author: slap-happy useless nibblets business firm In another thread, there was talk about firms having a lower standard for minorities with regards to hiring. Some people seem to think it's a substantially lower standard. How would you quantify the difference? Is it .1/.2 or more?
I can't imagine there being that huge of a difference like people seem to think. |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 7:54 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Depends on the minority group in question. For black candidates, for example, the difference can be quite sizable. For other racial groups, not necessarily. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037888) |
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Date: June 20th, 2009 8:46 AM Author: slap-happy useless nibblets business firm Let's say for black candidates. What would you consider quite sizable? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12041369) |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:03 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease There are only a handful of black students at America's elite schools, and all elite firms are fighting for that same handful. Those few students get picked up very quickly, which means that all other firms scramble to pick up black students that will fill out their diversity numbers (there is probably a more tactful way to phrase that, but I'm tird) ... that results in black students getting bumped up a bit through the range of firms. At my firm, I don't imagine the gap is too high between the credentials of a black student and non-black student. But at a number of firms (let's say, for example, the lower tier of firms that start off at $160K), I wouldn't be surprised if the difference was a lot more than .1/.2 in median GPA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062062) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:01 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy Know of any good litigation boutiques in NYC? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037929) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:02 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Plenty. Why do you ask? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037935) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:03 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy i want to do litigation, but "biglaw" scares me (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037944) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:07 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Hate to tell you this, but it's a lot easier to "hide" in biglaw than smaller firms. Further, believe it or not, lawyers in biglaw are far more civil and far less hostile than those at other firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037971) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:11 PM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy eh, i believe you. this is depressing for me. i definitely don't have the right fit for firm litigation (or at least like you said above, long-term/partner type) . i guess it's either govt work, or firm tax. and i'm not sure i even like tax. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12037996) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:36 PM Author: supple khaki space Please explain more? In what ways are biglaw lawyers more civil than smalllaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12038148) |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:09 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease In almost every way imaginable, especially if the lawyers on opposing sides are not from similar firms. A much higher percentage of smalllaw lawyers are insufferable to litigate against. First, they often have an inferiority complex. Second, far too many of them think that being a litigator is about being a "bulldog" who comes across as someone who will win at all costs. Third, they are far too skeptical of "biglaw" and think everyone is trying to outsmart/screw them, so they'll be a pain in the ass and object to even civil requests for continuances, joint motions etc. I could go and on. The idea that biglaw is full of uncivil, soulless assholes is somewhat humorous, but largely incorrect and ignorant. I'd much rather go up against a biglaw firm (and thankfully, almost always do). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062123) |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 9:58 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles its funny you say this. I work for a 30-lawyer firm that is large for our area; we say the same thing. I guess its all a matter of scale.
I will say, we hate working with new york big firm counsel because they want everything done yesterday. We dont work on sundays. |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 2:19 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal would you like to name some? any thoughts on kasowitz? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12074791) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:06 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Very good firm. I'm curious why you ask. Are you looking at particular ones to possibly start with? Lateral to? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089419) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:42 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal start with. i'm a rising 2L, 3.5ish at M.
chicago or nyc market, but chicago lit is pretty much lateral only for the boutiquey firms.
kasowitz and paul weiss are kinda high on my priorities - either impossible ITE you think?
any other lit boutiquey firms that take 2Ls in those 2 markets?
how would you compare kasowitz to the so-called peer firms of quinn and boies |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 10:08 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease What's ITE? In this economy? I'm not sure anyone should feel too confident about getting an offer at their top two choices in this economy, but good luck. And you would be well served starting at any of the firms mentioned in your post. Any distinction you're looking for between Kasowitz and QE would be a manufactured one at this stage of your career. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12119263) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 11:39 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal What about boies? Or just impossible in this economy?
For lit that wants to stay around and hopefully get partner woul it be better to tak a place like kasowitz over something like skadden? |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:08 PM Author: sooty famous landscape painting sandwich best practice group to express interest in this upcoming OCI?
do employers view LRW grades any differently than the others? |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:13 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Depends on the firm.
God no. I'm not sure we give a damn about any particular grade, let alone a grade in a 1 or 2 credit class like LRW. (Unless, of course, you did really horribly in it for some reason.) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:16 PM Author: sooty famous landscape painting sandwich i have no particular preference as far as prac groups go. just looking to maximize my chances @ biglaw.
is expressing interest in transactions as opposed to lit or bankruptcy going to be a deathblow ITE? or should i just always say whatever firms strength is |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:22 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease No, don't say whatever the firm strength is...almost no student can pull it off with any level of sincerity/demonstrate an understanding of our core competencies ... most usually end up sounding like brown-nosing douchebags. Just be honest and pray you interview with someone like me ... I'd be far more impressed if you just told me you couldn't care what you do than I would be if you tried telling me your great interest in my practice area/our area of expertize. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062267) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:20 PM Author: Flickering sanctuary I am a v50 incoming associate deferred until January '10. Please tell me whether you think I will actually start in January, or whether they will defer me again and/or revoke my offer.
I don't expect the economy to recover any time soon, so I'm presuming activity levels are going to remain very slow.
I am trying to plan my life, and not knowing makes this very difficult. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:17 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I think it would be a pretty dick move to defer you again/fire you having already deferred you. I think in almost all cases, if a firm is still struggling 6 months from now, they're going to let all of you start when they said you could start, but then performance you out a lot sooner than they used to previously. My best guess is that you'll start in January 2010, but for many in your class, their first review will also be their last. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062222) |
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Date: June 19th, 2009 8:26 PM Author: Talking jade indian lodge do biglaw associates ever blast electronica while they work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12038070) |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:10 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I know this is flame and I'm going to show my age with my response, but what is electronica? That crap they play in eurotrash clubs (aka techno?) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062138) |
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Date: June 24th, 2009 2:20 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal electronica is a douchey name for any electronic music. techno is a subgenre of electronic music.
that being said, i'd also like to know if this is acceptable. |
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Date: June 20th, 2009 12:26 AM Author: provocative church half-breed Would having a Master's degree help to get hired at your firm? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12040067) |
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Date: June 20th, 2009 12:27 AM Author: Pearl brunch faggotry only with a submissive (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12040077) |
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Date: June 22nd, 2009 11:12 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Eh, not really. I'll be honest -- I don't really care about it personally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12062156) |
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Date: June 23rd, 2009 7:11 PM Author: Insanely creepy razzle hominid I'm a first year corporate associate at a large regional firm. Really want to do well, am willing to stay as long and as late as need be, etc. but the fact of the matter is that there is just not enough work to go around.
In the meantime, I've been doing pro bono and lit to pass the time. I've been very clear to all of my partners that I'll take any work they can give me and I make sure to nail every assignment. Looks like I'm pretty safe so far. Good reviews on the work I have been able to get and no words of layoffs (the firm is pretty fiscally conservative but who knows ITE).
Anything else I can do to help stave off being laid off? Effects of this on partnership since it is a given that I won't make my minimum billables? Any other words of advice? |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:03 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Your hours your first year may have an effect on whether you'll still have a job a few years from now, but it will have little to no effect on your partnership prospects years down the road.
There is no better advice than 'do great work.' |
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Date: June 30th, 2009 1:24 AM Author: Insanely creepy razzle hominid What happens if I do end up making it if/when this thing blows over - any chance of me getting into a specialty practice group (e.g., soft IP, first amendment, etc.)?
I figure if I do end up making it I'll be a third year with this weird hodge podge of skills cause I've just been taking any / all work.
And what's my lot if I don't end up making it? I worry a little as to how marketable I'll be with 2-3 years of experience doing anything / everything I can get my hands on. Most ads I see now want third years with very specific skills. |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:06 PM Author: turquoise infuriating heaven I'm not in law and I'm having an awesome year. Also have no debt. Where did I go wrong? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089416) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:08 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles where you saw dick and wanted it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089436) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:14 PM Author: turquoise infuriating heaven Thanks, dad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089482) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:10 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend what's the ratio of doc review to substantive work for first years at your firm, and how would you say that compares to biglaw in general? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089449) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:17 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I don't really know what the ratio is at other firms. What is the general consensus on how much doc review 1st years do? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089503) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:20 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend worst i've heard is 90%(dr)-10%(lr/w) that sounds like absolute hell |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:29 PM Author: bright razzle-dazzle fat ankles why doesnt that firm just pay contract attys to do that??!? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089637) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:11 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease What?? That's absurd. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090049) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:31 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend that's what i've heard from one associate re his firm. in your firm, what is not "absurd," yet typical? |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:46 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I never spent even 50% of my time in any year doing document review. I guess I don't know how much time our first years spend, but I hope to God not a single one of them is spending anything close to 90% on doc review. I would guess (hope) 25-50% at any given time for a first year is more typical. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090425) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:52 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend what type of work are first years doing the other 50-75% of the time? (i know it varies, but please provide as much info as you can; i'm really trying to get a feel for biglaw litigation and would appreciate any help you can provide) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090467) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:55 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Research, writing, depo prep, taking interview notes, helping prepare exhibits for trial, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090498) |
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Date: June 26th, 2009 12:01 AM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend how much pure research/writing is there? that's really the work i'm looking to do as a lawyer. is that a more typical assignment, or are juniors lucky to get substantive work like that (or unlucky)? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090536) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:24 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I don't know what you mean by "pure" research/writing, but what do you litigators do for the most part if not research and/or writing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12118763) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:34 PM Author: Carnelian whorehouse halford you said: "Research, writing, depo prep, taking interview notes, helping prepare exhibits for trial, etc"
He's asking how many projects will be "research and writing" ONLY as opposed to other projects which will involve "depo prep, taking interview notes, helping prepare exhibits for trial, etc". |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:39 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Fair enough. I was talking more as a general matter. The specifics for any person will depend on the case you're working on and the firm you're working for. If your firm runs a lot of large internal investigations, for example, you probably aren't going to be doing much research/writing as a junior. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12118904) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 10:22 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend which non-V20 firms have the best litigation reps in NYC? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12089547) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:13 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Stop caring so much about which firms have the best reps ... find the best fit for yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090061) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:23 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend by "reps" I do not mean prestige. i don't care about that. but some litigation firms are know for the high quality of their litigators, others are known for blowing a lot of hot air; some are known to have genuinely nice people, and others are known to be full of arrogant assholes. my question is - from your experience and from what you've seen and heard, where're the nice, smart, talented people at? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090176) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:49 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease There is no firm-wide answer to this question. You'd have to go a lot lower than the "V20" to run into firms where the average partner wasn't a very talented lawyer. I have one or two firms I've had some crappy experiences with, but I'm not going to name them here based on my experiences with only a select few litigators. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090446) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:53 PM Author: Out-of-control hall organic girlfriend fair (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090476) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:20 PM Author: turquoise infuriating heaven This is a pretty basic question which you may have answered elsewhere -- but how long were you at your firm before you became a partner? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090143) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:54 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I haven't answered this and I'd prefer not to ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090481) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:27 PM Author: aphrodisiac kitty cat people who are hurt You call/email me on a sunday and tell me you need me to come into the office. I respond, "Sorry, I can't today, it's my kid's birthday party." what next? |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:52 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I've never once called up an associate at home on a Sunday and demanded they come into the office. But assuming the work emergency was real, I'd fully expect you to do what needed to get done. Your kid's birthday party won't last for more than a few hours. If things are bad enough that I need to ruin your weekend, let alone your kid's bday, I'd expect you to realize I really need help. So you can help me before or after your kid's birthday. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090466) |
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Date: June 25th, 2009 11:55 PM Author: aphrodisiac kitty cat people who are hurt ok. still sucks, but not as bad as the alternative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12090499) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 9:49 PM Author: pungent exhilarant step-uncle's house shitlib How much do you think raw intelligence correlates to success at your firm? Do you think hard work and judgment can make up for not being a genius? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12119024) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 10:04 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Having good judgment and good instincts are more important than being a genius. Being smart helps, of course. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12119212) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 10:07 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal i responded to your post upthread from a few days ago (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12119247) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 10:10 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Please repost here ... can't find a question I missed above. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12119272) |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 11:56 PM Author: concupiscible chapel turdskin if you are hiring summer's how would you look at a total grade split over the first two semesters?
Like if i got all B's first semester, and i did, and a A- average second semester(A,A-,A-,B+). Would this reflect poorly upon me? |
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Date: June 29th, 2009 11:57 PM Author: concupiscible chapel turdskin also coming from a top 5 school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12120384) |
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Date: July 3rd, 2009 12:16 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I don't really care much about grade splits. If anything, some people would probably look favorably upon that split because it showed you improved over time (far better than the alternative), but I wouldn't care about it personally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12148990) |
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Date: June 30th, 2009 4:47 PM Author: laughsome rehab Kind of like the grades question above, would one bad grade (B-) in a class like Torts raise a red flag for you if the student had an overall top 30% GPA (say 3.5 or so). This coming from DCNG (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12125813) |
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Date: June 30th, 2009 6:52 PM Author: Swashbuckling sneaky criminal so relevant to my interests. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12126841) |
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Date: July 3rd, 2009 12:19 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease No. What kind of "red flag" would it raise? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12148997) |
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Date: June 30th, 2009 4:53 PM Author: thriller bistre brethren institution Tips for doing well in law school classes, especially 1L? Tips for what a T14 student should try to do 1L summer? Is it unrealistic to shoot for a firm unless you are a HYP undergrad/hot girl/URM? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12125847) |
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Date: June 30th, 2009 6:51 PM Author: Stirring casino You mean a firm as a 1L?
1) talk to upperclassmen who have had your professors and see if they have any tips;
2) stay on top of reading--outline early
3) focus on practice exams--go over answers with friend
4) take practice exams seriously--take them like you are taking the real exam--don't just outline them or think about your answer
Also for no. 4, see what you are doing wrong after you take practice tests.
5) go to office hrs and get to know professors. It can't hurt and it might help.
I wouldnt bother trying to learn any material before 1L. There is plenty of time to learn the material during 1L. |
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Date: July 3rd, 2009 12:21 PM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease Do whatever you want your 1L summer (as long as it's somewhat related to the law). I couldn't care less what people did their 1L summers. And I'm not sure being a hot girl/URM would get you hired as a 1L anytime soon either. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12149008) |
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Date: July 3rd, 2009 2:34 PM Author: Pink startling trust fund church building To be fair, I think there are more than just positive qualities that go into making a good associate. To make an analogy -- to be a great garbageman/person, you need superior physical strength, endurance, an interest in helping society as a whole, and a careful attitude towards fellow motorists on the street. You also need to be able to put up with significant stench; but no "waste manager" is going to highlight that for you. It's the same for being an associate. I have had my share of projects in which negative qualities came in handy. Ability not to be bored by routine or mundane tasks, having a preference for tasks that require little creativity or imagination. I daresay that if you prefer the tasks of information compiling and rote organization over any type of creative thinking or exercising of intelligence, you might very well enjoy your first couple years in BIGLAW more than someone who enjoys different types of activities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12149903) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:31 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease I agree completely and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. In fact, this ties in pretty well to my 'some great associates would make terrible partners' argument above. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185471) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 6:30 PM Author: Pink startling trust fund church building Cool, I'm glad you agree. Can I ask you a question then: What happens to those associates? Do they ever become angry at the firm's reluctance to offer them partnership after years and years of success as associates? Also, how large do you think the divide is between great associate qualities and great partner qualities, i.e., how large is the overlap? Is this why most associates never make partner? Also, does this mean the best partners were crappy associates? Ha ha, just kidding about that one. You seem like a great partner and I'm sure you were a pretty good associate as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12191512) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:32 AM Author: Crimson Titillating Base Mad Cow Disease P.S. Uh, yeah, nearly everyone is second-guessing what to do with summers at this stage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185483) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:43 AM Author: ivory charismatic center Meaning? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185566) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:54 AM Author: pungent exhilarant step-uncle's house shitlib you mean about offer rates? a few firms have come out and said there will be 100% offers: Skadden, Cravath.
are firms second guessing what to do with 3Ls too? |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:55 AM Author: pungent exhilarant step-uncle's house shitlib Also, time for Part V, maybe? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185660) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:57 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy seconded (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185682) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:55 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy I have nothing to put in an "interests" section of my resume. how critical is this to good interviews? the only thing i can think of is poker. is it ok to list that, especially if it will be standing alone? |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 12:58 AM Author: pungent exhilarant step-uncle's house shitlib i'm sure partner can answer this too, but the whole point of interests is to give you something to talk about. is there literally nothing you've ever done that could be interesting conversation fodder? do you build train sets? travel to strange places?
i had something in my interests section that they asked about in every single interview i had. shit, i had a whole list of jokes about it by the end that GUARANTEED a laugh. |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 1:03 AM Author: lavender weed whacker really tough guy nope. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185737) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 1:02 AM Author: heady spot boltzmann Top traits you look for in a litigation associate?
How much of a learning curve do you expect/accept starting first years to experience? What is the best way not to fuck up?
Also, if a starting first-year was involved in VERY minor scandal (eg hooking up with an associate one time while drunk) during their summer that young associates chattered about among themselves, what are the chances that partners heard? If they heard but everyone involved behaved in a professional matter at work, what are the chances that partners cared? |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 1:05 AM Author: pungent exhilarant step-uncle's house shitlib lol. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185752) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 1:10 AM Author: cerebral degenerate forum How hot was she? They should be high five'n you bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185792) |
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Date: July 8th, 2009 1:20 AM Author: heady spot boltzmann female summer. relatedly, does a double standard apply here? it's difficult to imagine that it doesn't (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1003339&forum_id=2#12185865) |