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ITT we offer advice to associates starting this fall
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:25 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I am an associate at a large NY firm and am on pace for 2500 or so. Won't give more details than that.
ITT we offer advice to the class of '09 as they begin their legal careers at large firms.
PROTIP #1: ALWAYS be available. At my firm, people who were willing to work all day Thanksgiving got onto a huge case that led to enormous amounts of work. Some people who prioritized their families now can't provide for them. Remember, this is a service business. Your job as a junior associate is to provide service to the people senior to you. Think of them as your clients.
Do NOT come in with a list of blocked off Fall weekends of weddings of college friends. You are a first year in BIGLAW; you can't make those weddings. I will not stop you from going to them (although at some firms they will), but I won't give you work if there is someone else who is willing to work for a living.
PROTIP #2: Take as much work as possible. Not only are you gaining skills but you are keeping opportunities from other members of your class who might otherwise surpass you. Be VERY cognizant of the relative abilities of your peers; if you don't know who sucks, it is you and you will be gone. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:08 AM Author: coral set sneaky criminal i look forward to hiring you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658810) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 1:46 PM Author: slimy spectacular party of the first part haunted graveyard lol @ at the striverness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667798) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:53 PM Author: Turquoise Mexican Agreed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731367) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:05 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic similarly situated associate who has been doing this for a year now.
These are all incredibly highly credited.
Let me add one more:
PROTIP: Do WHATEVER you can for baller partners. You will know who these people are. If you get on their radar screens by doing timely, quality work for them, you get on their team. Once your on a baller's team, you have a much greater degree of security ITE |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 11:15 PM Author: amber splenetic location LOL. Hi OPs other moniker. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12683977) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:48 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic decidedly not (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731330) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:18 PM Author: misunderstood vigorous corner You'll do all this stuff for 8 years, and you still won't make partner. LOL at ur life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738324) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:30 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic but will be able to bank serious dollars (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738480) |
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Date: August 20th, 2011 12:44 AM Author: Concupiscible kitchen lol
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:26 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital how are you going to absorb us all? will there be work for us? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658471) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:30 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house At my firm, yes. At most firms, no, there won't be. So it will be competitive.
I will absorb you by giving you very menial work. If you do it properly and I can trust you to not make mistakes, I will give you progressively better stuff.
There will be great rewards to those who survive this miserable cycle, so make sure you are one of the survivors. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:31 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital should i be at the office late? does face time matter? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658524) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:32 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house see protip #5 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658537) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:14 AM Author: cracking lilac native uggh. thanks for reminding me that i'm fucked for life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658843) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:16 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house i don't think anyone really aspires to do this forever. if your time was cut short, mourn for a minute then find a way to deal with it. The music was always going to stop; it was just a question of when. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658859) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:17 AM Author: cracking lilac native believe me buddy i'm trying. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658864) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 1:47 PM Author: slimy spectacular party of the first part haunted graveyard great rewards like what? one day becoming a 4th year associate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667802) |
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Date: August 19th, 2011 1:57 AM Author: onyx nibblets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18787938) |
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Date: August 19th, 2011 2:05 AM Author: onyx nibblets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18787957) |
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Date: November 22nd, 2011 10:31 AM Author: lascivious magical forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#19419731) |
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Date: August 19th, 2011 1:36 AM Author: sticky meetinghouse "I will absorb you."
Just LOL at how seriously he said this. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:28 AM Author: nubile keepsake machete church should i kick the shit out of someone my first day (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658484) |
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Date: September 19th, 2009 12:44 AM Author: gaped puce stage windowlicker i laughed at this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12782819) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:29 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #3: Take a hard look at yourself and ask what negative inferences people will make about you and make conscious efforts to address them.
If you are a pretty girl, for example, don't get a pink cover for your blackberry and spend all day on the phone with your boyfriend and browsing facebook. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:31 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life but do live up to the hopes harbored by the partners who hired you. e.g., the pretty girl should get down with taking the odd d, for the team (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658526) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:44 PM Author: Chartreuse whorehouse ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667525) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:30 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage PROTIP #4: Don't bring a lot of personal shit to the office. It's a pain in the ass (and depressing as hell) to bring it all back home when you get laid off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658513) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:43 AM Author: burgundy box office boistinker TCP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658657) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:06 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic credited, it's strange to see someone move in a half dozen photos and a painting on their second week on the job (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675643) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:32 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #5: For the first five months, be the last one out of the office. Never leave before any associate senior enough to give you work. Being on the floor "finishing something up" at 11pm can be a great way to give some emergency help to a more senior person who will then come back to you.
You can tone this down once you get integrated, and firms that don't sit groups together make this harder. But you must get integrated. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:35 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage Of course, if you do this and don't have work, everyone will think you're a tool. If you bill 20 hours a week and stay until 8pm every night, no one will want to work with you anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658563) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:37 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house You can pretend to be really busy very easily. You don't have to say "Hey <senior associate>, just putting in some Friday night facetime, need any help?"
Try: "Hey, just finished up [work on this case/deal]. Anything I can do to help you get out of here?" |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:42 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage In a larger group that's probably true - if there are 10+ associates of your year in lit you can fake it.
But when your entire group is 10 people, and you're the only associate your year, everyone knows what you're doing (or not doing). |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:08 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic Or, if it's 8pm and you have NOTHING to do, check in with the seniors and see if they need anything from you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675649) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:44 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Very credited. Sometimes you can be too busy to think about delegating but when an eager face shows up you can figure out some way they can assist you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680100) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:55 PM Author: chrome place of business den FLAME (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930719) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:33 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot from an outsider's perspective, after reading this thread thus far, can i just say that BIGLAW sounds extremely fucking miserable? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658544) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:34 AM Author: diverse theater stage useless brakes You expect to be paid $160K to enjoy yourself? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658559) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:36 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I'm hearing rumors that this class won't be getting 160k. We'll see how true that is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658578) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 2:16 PM Author: painfully honest hell giraffe for realz? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12668000) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:36 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot i would expect to be at least marginally more interested in the work i'm doing than in spending every waking moment struggling to stay a half-step ahead of the guy in the office next to me at any cost.
tbf, i know to people in IRL biglaw. one absolutely loves it, and the other doesn't hate it, so maybe this thread presents some sort of worst-case scenario. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:38 AM Author: diverse theater stage useless brakes The OP is painting a pretty grim picture but ITE I wouldn't be taking any chances. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658610) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:40 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot what's the endgame, then? be the last man standing and then gun for partner? pay off loans and then go in-house?
where does all of this posturing and hand-wringing and making sure that you have absolutely no friends or family connections whatsoever in order to maximize BIGLAW facetime get you in the end? |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:41 AM Author: French Lay Prole TITCQ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658630) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:42 AM Author: diverse theater stage useless brakes When you are brand new it pays to be zealous and put in 120% to build a good reputation, network with the partners that matter and avoid layoffpwnage.
After you've been at your firm for a year or two you'll have a far better feel for how things work, how to avoid the crap work and whether or not you want to gun for partner. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:58 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house The corner office, the apartment on the upper east, the private schools for the kids and yoga sessions for the wife. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658754) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:00 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot you sound like that douchebag from boiler room.
i'm not saying that biglaw isn't for some people, but there are other ways to achieve the same that don't involve absolutely hating your life for 5 or more years.
*edit: also, what wife and kids? the ones you see twice a year because you're afraid that if you leave the office before 11 pm you'll get canned?
**double edit: plus, if you marry a woman who makes you buy her yoga lessons, then the joke is on you. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:01 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house This doesn't end, the game just changes. Partners play all sorts of games too.
Look, I didn't say this is what I want. But this is what a BIGLAW associate is working towards, at least in NYC. |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:40 PM Author: Pink stain my solution was to marry a chick gunning for neurosurgeon
fucking SHREWD decision ite (obama's not gonna latham doctors)
sure i'll gun for biglaw, but if i don't get it, i'll go do something interesting and enjoy having a wife who picks up a 350K+/yr paycheck |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:12 PM Author: maize old irish cottage patrolman Try $800K+ (small market) dumbass (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12763210) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:41 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life oh lulz i can't believe how many of you happily eat such shit reasoning, merely because it emanates from the mouths of partners. getting paid six figures to do work with high returns to cognitive ability up to and past the 99th percentile of the population (thus restricting the range of people you'd want doing it drastically) isn't absurd, and needn't entail misery. biglaw could be a 45 hr per week/135k job, given either a slightly different history or slightly saner aspirants/participants, smart enough to demand less misery even if it shaves 30k per year off their paychecks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658636) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:46 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot this makes sense. i understand the concept of loans, and i understand that the extra 30k/yr helps pay 'em off that much faster, but sometimes, i find it absurd that people here genuinely scoff at those who choose to forgo biglaw for some other option that pays $120k yr (at age 25 or 26, which is absolutely absurd by most people's standards). do you really think that your GULC degree is so prestigious that it's a travesty to "waste" it on a meager $120k pittance before you've even hatched from your mid-20s?
*edit: personally, if it meant being able to maintain a friendship or two outside of work, i'd gladly sacrifice that extra $40k/yr. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:01 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life unfortunately, the mindset is prevalent not only here but in the irl practice of law. that's one big reason biglaw is structured as it is--the recruits deemed to be talented by the best firms preferred top-of-the-market compensation to maintaining a life outside of work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658782) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:03 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house You also get better partners if your associates have enormous amounts of experience doing quality work on quality deals. This can only be accomplished by working a lot. It sucks, but it's also why NY lawyers get the best training (on average). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658791) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:05 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot based on what ol cap'n crunch up there has to say, it looks like the next PROTIP should be, "if you insist on doing BIGLAW and have any designs on starting a family that loves you for more than just your paycheck, do it outside of MANFUCKINGHATTAN/NYFUCKINGC." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658801) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:57 PM Author: Bearded Disturbing Private Investor Laser Beams I have zero training. I do doc review 60 hours a week. I know people in the middle of bumfuck nowhere at small firms who know a hell of a lot more about the law than I do. Brainwashed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930735) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:03 AM Author: stubborn comical lettuce spot well, then i guess this thread makes me feel a whole hell of a lot better about my life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658793) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:46 AM Author: diverse theater stage useless brakes There's a lot of crap work that needs to be done especially by junior associates. If a partner needs you to proofread a 500 page document for comma errors, read 25 folders of discovery or spend the night in the photocopy room making sure the photocopy drones don't screw up the assembly of important documents then you need to do it regardless of your IQ or educational pedigree.
This shouldn't be all, or even a significant portion, of your work but getting precious about what you will or won't do is a good way to piss people off. Every partner did their share of that sort of work when they were a junior.
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:06 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life you're changing the subject. the point is that a far less miserable yet still quite highly compensated version of biglaw is possible--was in fact perhaps actual at one time (associates weren't expected to bill 2000 hours in the '70s)--even though of course there wouldn't be quite as _much_ money in it for the various participants. the level of talent on hand and the stakes involved would generate big returns, even if we weren't slaves to the last additional dollar (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658804) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:10 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Wouldn't work. There will always be firms like Cadwalader that will let partners reap enormous returns on their client relationships. It's the free market in a brutally competitive industry where 90% of the sellers are peddling commodity services that 100 other vendors are also dying to sell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658818) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:17 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life the model in fact did work. i suppose your point is that there was competitive pressure from clients favoring additional hours, and that firms responded to that pressure. sure, but if the best attorneys generally demanded a life (e.g. weren't willing to spend well in excess of 50 hours per week at the office on average), far more firms would be structured in a manner amenable to such attorneys. a few cadwaladers wouldn't be able to service everyone all the time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658867) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:20 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital part of his point is that the "best" attorneys are going to be the ones that put in extra hours in the office. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658890) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:20 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house The pressure comes from clients AND from partners. Clients paying premium rates demand premium service. I've had many emails that began "I know you are on vacation, BUT ...." A lot of partners only put up with this because of the money, which leads them to want to maximize it.
The system builds on itself by only making the hardest workers partner, and so on.
There's a partner at a NYC V5 firm who missed her own daughter's wedding for a deal. Think she gives a shit that you want to go celebrate your girlfriend's birthday? |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:25 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life if the culture were such that many more biglawyers were willing to politely say "no thanks, sorry, fuck that" far more often, clients would have to readjust their expectations. apparently the culture once was that way; 1400 billables back in the day, right? you think clients weren't demanding in the '70s? demands are tempered by what servants are willing to provide (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658934) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:27 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital don't you think the ratio of hours in office to billable hours used to be worse though? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658944) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:31 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life i've never heard that as a counterpoint from anyone familiar with what work was like during that period. so, i suppose it may have been worse, but not to an extent such that anyone would find it to be of countervailing significance (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658975) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:37 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Someone who was an associate at a V5 back then (and is now a partner in BIGLAW) told me that, when he was young, you spent a ton of time waiting for letters to come to you. You did a lot of doc review on site, spending months at the client reading their files. The game's changed but I'm not sure it has really gotten worse. This has always been a tough way to live. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12659000) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:46 AM Author: Opaque sickened business firm love of her life "Young Harvard lawyers are less content today than we were. They work harder, longer hours. They don't have the time to indulge themselves, to become Renaissance people. My classmates still believed that it was possible to go to plays--every night if we wished--to learn music, to have intellectual discourses. We led pretty decent lives in the law firms. Today, a Harvard Law graduate comes in conditioned to give up large parts of his life for a number of years. I don't know if it's a pretty decent life."
--samuel b. fortenbaugh iii, class of 1960, former managing partner at morgan, lewis & bockius, new york
http://www.esquire.com/killing-lawyers-harvard-0800?click=main_sr#ixzz0Q1HF9xRW
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Date: September 14th, 2009 2:30 PM Author: violent messiness filthpig Look, why care?
The current culture is the way it is and the way it's going to be for some time.
You have two choices: Choose BIGLAW, shut your pie hole and put up with it or don't choose BIGLAW.
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:27 AM Author: electric maroon selfie dragon Yeah, what people don't realize is that as the $$ shot up, the hours did too. What's the point of making good money if you can't ever enjoy it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658949) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 11:14 PM Author: Vengeful Magenta Casino "Yeah, what people don't realize is that as the $$ shot up, the hours did too."
I'm pretty sure people realize that, numnuts. |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 4:25 AM Author: 180 trailer park gunner be kind man he just shared a great personal revelation with us (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12742739) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:27 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house But people want work and they want to work for sophisticated, prestigious clients. There are only so many of them. The industry is much more competitive now than it was in the 70s.
At one point, maybe 20 firms in the US (and that might be high) could credibly offer advice on a meaningful corporate merger. Now hundreds of firms could offer very similar advice (although obviously, the NYC V10 have a huge advantage in their ability to throw bodies at things). Law is much less of a guild now. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:45 AM Author: French Lay Prole I think this is kind of wrong. It's still true that only 20 firms can do a good job on a meaningful corporate merger. The V10 advantage is way more than bodies. Work at second tier Biglaw firms is shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12659026) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 9:28 PM Author: Dun fat ankles Haha. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12670759) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 2:37 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I agree that the V10 does, on average, put out better work product. But that is not to say their final deal docs will be perfect.
I have seen a great deal of poorly drafted credit agreements, sloppy merger docs and failures to perfect liens that were the fault of V10 firms.
The main problem is the ridiculous, frantic time frame this stuff is done on. It doesn't give you the time to do things like be 100% that you've moved over all your defined terms to the new version from the form, etc.
Of course, these mistakes lead to litigation down the line so on average they are good for the firm and the industry. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:26 AM Author: electric maroon selfie dragon "There's a partner at a NYC V5 firm who missed her own daughter's wedding for a deal."
What a sorry existence. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:30 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I think you are missing the fact that, for the people who truly enjoy practicing law and are good at it, practice at a high level offers a combination of fast-paced stimulating work, challenge and excitement that family life just can't hope to match. It's a choice you might find sad, but it's a choice that isn't without upside. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658973) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:31 AM Author: White Deranged Abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658976) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:46 AM Author: French Lay Prole Not if you're a partner at a top firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12659029) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:53 AM Author: White Deranged Abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12659061) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 1:03 PM Author: black provocative school brethren so, like, really really rewarding? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667614) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:15 PM Author: boyish principal's office cuckoldry i laughed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675688) |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 8:18 PM Author: Thriller menage circlehead just LOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#15796427) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:34 AM Author: milky crawly nursing home regret PROTIP #6: adhering to protips guarantees nothing. it only increases the likelihood of a particular outcome. in the end, you are dispensable. nevar forget. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658560) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:36 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage Mostly true. But in the end, if you're in a slow practice group, it doesn't matter what you do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658581) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:35 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #7: Based on your summer, you should have some idea for what the pecking order among partners is. Work for powerful partners whose advice is sought out by powerful, important clients. Do not become the "go-to" guy of a wonderful-to-work-for service partner. Being wonderful to work for does not pay the firm's rent; billable hours do. Find the guys who source the billable hours and suffer through their bullshit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658565) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:27 PM Author: insane frum dingle berry tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731131) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 5:52 AM Author: useless crotch queen of the night definitely tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12742786) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:35 AM Author: Beta half-breed national nobody is starting this fall nigga (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658573) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:36 AM Author: French Lay Prole Explain why you think it's important to be cognizant of people's relative abilities. I don't totally disagree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658580) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:46 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house This is less important if you are in an enormous group in an enormous shop where you function basically as an interchangeable widget for the first three years. But generally, people like to have "the best" associate working for them and it is important to be perceived as the best.
Generally, it's good to know you are ahead of X, Y, Z (but behind W) because you will likely survive the next year's cull so long as there is someone shitty behind you.
On another note, perception is way more important than reality. I've seen associates who are basically unskilled achieve enormous success by creating a perception that they are relentlessly hard workers who are on top of everything. Don't be quietly competent. |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 9:18 PM Author: Haunting Excitant Immigrant Double Fault "I've seen associates who are basically unskilled achieve enormous success by creating a perception that they are relentlessly hard workers who are on top of everything."
DESCRIBE how one goes about doing this. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 3:04 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house It's tough to pull off properly. Some people try sending all emails with assignments between 2 and 5am to seem super hard working, but this can make you look stupid if the assigning attorney knows the work was not hard.
I'm not sure I really understand how they do it. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:37 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage PROTIP #8: Don't pick a niche practice area, because they're hurting the most right now. Pick lit or restructuring. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658587) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:47 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Generally credited, but some niches can be nice. The main reason not to pick a niche is because most niches are service groups, and avoid service groups like the plague. But at many firms, restructuring is a service group for banking, so be aware of that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658677) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:51 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage Excellent point on service groups.
My niche practice was great when it was self-sustaining, but it was changed into more of a service group right about the time the economy went off a cliff. Then, when work dried up, they canned EVERY associate in the group. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:53 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Totally firm dependent. Tax is mostly a service group industry-wide, but some firms have rainmaking tax groups. Those are the ones you want to work for.
Associates in service groups might as well be working naked for all the protection they have when things go wrong. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:59 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658763) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:19 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital so the advice here is to work for one of the main income generating practice areas? what about shit like white collar? i'm sure it doesn't generate as much cashflow as other areas ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658880) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:30 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage As long as the group has its own clients, it's fine. If the white collar group just gets its business from the banking practice, that's where the problem arises. You have to have rainmakers to protect you when things go south.
All the rainmakers in my practice left - the remaining partners were just service partners. As a result, they had no leverage when the firm management demanded cuts. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:32 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house White collar can be a CASH COW. Mary Jo is basically PRINTING MONEY at Debevoise. Totally depends on the firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658980) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:47 PM Author: Pink stain what's a "service group"? it apparently doesn't mean what i think it means (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667537) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 3:16 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house A service group is a group that is there to provide legal services to other groups at the firm. Consider an M&A group that does transactions for a Fortune 500 company (let's call it Disney). Disney comes to the firm for the advice of an M&A lawyer. While that transaction was being papered, the M&A group needed assistance from tax, maybe banking if the transaction involved financing, maybe regulatory advice, etc. Those groups who assisted M&A were acting as "service groups" since their work was done at the request of the originating group -- M&A. In effect, the tax lawyer's client was really M&A, not Disney, even though the advice provided was to Disney.
Some firms have institutional client bases and this is a less accurate picture, but that is increasingly less true. It is definitely also true that M&A could not function without those service tax and regulatory lawyers, but those service lawyers can be replaced fairly easily while M&A's client is harder to replace.
Your job as a summer associate is to figure out which groups in the firm originate work. Then, you work for those groups. It's also more satisfying, at least to me, because you see all aspects of a deal instead of only seeing one aspect of a lot of deals.
Which groups are service groups will vary by firm. At Weil, restructuring is a main, rainmaking group while at another firm it is a service group. Litigation is a service group at some places and corporate can be a service group at others. At most firms, tax is a service group, but there are rainmaking tax partners at major firms who have their own clients. This may also vary within a group; one regulatory lawyer may be a service partner for his banking colleagues while others may originate work. Work for those people.
You also get more respect in the firm when you work for a main, rainmaking group that originates work because you are involved in the principal activity of the business. Take this into consideration when you choose your firm. I would rather work in a rainmaking group at any given anonymous BIGLAW firm than work in a service group at a V10.
Working in a service group may not give the marketing and client development training you need to develop your own client relationships, which may limit your ceiling to service partner.
Chambersandpartners provides a good guide to the identity of lawyers whose advice is sought out by clients. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 12:37 AM Author: hideous church building This is quite true; also if you're a tax/regulatory guy, the questions and ideas clients come to you with are usually a lot more interesting than the support work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12678297) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:04 PM Author: irradiated parlour gaping quality post. ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12679888) |
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Date: November 10th, 2009 12:57 PM Author: Honey-headed crackhouse Subject: What are service groups? Forgive my ignorance (just a 0L here), but what types of practice groups are considered service groups, and why should they be avoided? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#13231858) |
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Date: November 10th, 2009 1:13 PM Author: gay center headpube groups where the majority of the work originates from other practice groups. It differs from firm to firm, but in some firms it includes anti-trust, tax, employement law, environmental law. All these groups can be needed to do securities work or M&A so firms need people who do that work, but very few clients go to the firm because of the partners in those groups.
However, there are exceptions to the rule and there are some rainmakers in these service groups. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:37 AM Author: Federal sex offender hard to tell if this is flame or accurate advice for BIGLAW--which is clearly irl flame. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658590) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:41 AM Author: bisexual sable hospital What are your thoughts on billing too many hours to a project? i.e. being an idiot and/or wanting to be extra thorough? lie about hours in order to avoid seeming dumb? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658633) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:42 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Totally depends on the partner. Some guys get really upset, others love the extra fees. Learn how to bill in a way that disguises your padding/inefficiency. This is probably a topic for a separate thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658651) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:26 AM Author: Grizzly wonderful community account Will you start this thread? Or briefly summarize your thoughts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658943) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:44 AM Author: Hairraiser jet hall blood rage If your practice is slow, partners want you to bill as many hours as possible. If there's a constant stream of work, however, then efficiency will become important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658662) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:49 AM Author: diverse theater stage useless brakes You should always record all of your hours. It's the partner's decision whether or not to bill all of it. Partners have a much better idea than you of how long something should take and the client's willingness to pay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658685) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:07 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Agreed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658806) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:41 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #9: At many (most?) firms, the class of '08 in front of you did not really get work and is poorly trained. This means they are largely interchangeable with you. They also dealt with news of layoffs every day from law school classmates and bear some mental scars from that.
Be very, very careful of them. They rightly see you as a threat and some of them will try to destroy you before you destroy them. They will be thinned out a lot after reviews; don't let them take you down with them. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:00 AM Author: sepia buck-toothed tanning salon karate Good point. Do you think firms will extend the January deferrals? Or will they start us and fire us 3 months later? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658765) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:05 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Partners love potential. At this point, they know the Class of '08 and are unimpressed by a lot of them. It makes more sense from the firm's perspective to dump them and start you guys. I think you guys will start in January but it will be tough to become integrated before the summers show up and start consuming some of the entry level work, so those first few months will be very competitive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658800) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:14 AM Author: sepia buck-toothed tanning salon karate Now I know you are flame. No credible person actually believes anyone will start in January. You are so busted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658842) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:31 AM Author: White Deranged Abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658974) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:50 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic I have heard the same thing about some of the 08s in our firm. The partners are itching to get rid of them and are waiting on the 09s starting this fall to make sure that they will be able to fill the void when they axe the 08s (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731344) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 8:34 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Same at my shop. At the end of the day, you need to be progressing in line with global expectations of what your abilities to be (which don't vary much by year, so if your area was barren it will not save you unless you are viewed as a star). You don't want a 3rd year walking around with a 1st year's skill set. First year level work is for first years, and those who can't progress -- or didn't have a chance to -- must be pushed out of the way to make room for associates that the firm may one day grow into a rainmaking partner. There's just no reason to do rehabilitation or remedial work when there is an infinite supply of new bodies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731740) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 3:08 PM Author: sepia buck-toothed tanning salon karate This is all fine and well. But there is still no way in hell firms will be able to start new associates in January. If there is NO WORK to be done, what will they do with all of us?
Oh, I know, WE WILL NEVER FUCKING START! |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:44 AM Author: thirsty halford gas station PROTIP #10
Clever girls attack from the side. Despite your lifelong experience as a big game hunter, really bad ass South African accent, and SPAS-12 fully automatic shotgun, you are still going to get eviscerated, intestines flailing on the ground as you writhe in pain and your flesh is gnashed by a godless beast dredged up from the depths of time. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:45 AM Author: greedy stead elastic band tyvmft (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658665) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:58 AM Author: galvanic walnut newt This, and this alone, will I remember. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658749) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:02 PM Author: Transparent razzle-dazzle national security agency ladyboy tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675618) |
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Date: September 1st, 2011 6:14 PM Author: Federal sex offender pwned!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18886084) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:44 AM Author: erotic crusty garrison no-offers advice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658663) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:52 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Not sure I have any. Hopefully you realize from this thread that you are only missing out on a chance to sacrifice your entire life to make money for other people in a very unpleasant way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658712) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:51 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #11: Hours matter, and not just because they make the firm money.
The more you bill the more you learn (unless you are at a shithole that doesn't give juniors quality work). There was a point first year when I looked around at a guy I started with who was 500 hours behind me and realized just how much better I was solely because of the experience I'd had.
People want to work with the associates who have been trained, so this snowballs. If you are at a firm that can give you 3000 hours of good work your first couple years of practice, you are well-situated (although your life will suck). But that sacrifice will pay dividends as you will be on your way as an attorney. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 12:54 AM Author: thirsty halford gas station Thank you for respecting my PROTIP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658726) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:39 PM Author: vermilion mewling dysfunction i love how you skipped from #10 to #11 in respect to the clever girl protip. 180. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12664458) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:42 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house All protips can be useful to the right person. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12664471) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:19 AM Author: French Lay Prole Depressingly good advice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658882) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:35 PM Author: milky crawly nursing home regret yeah this is some ITE realpolitik (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12664429) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:24 AM Author: White Deranged Abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658926) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:34 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house No idea. Being voluntarily deferred is probably better than being involuntarily deferred, but be prepared to deal with doubts about your interest in actually practicing law. Nobody will care about your trip to Nepal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658990) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:39 AM Author: White Deranged Abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12659010) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:34 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #12: Firms pay lip service to pro bono. Whether or not you should do it is a tough question. Clearly, if you can do real client work you should avoid pro bono at all costs. If you are trying to get integrated, it might be worth taking some pro bono with a powerful partner. But you don't want to get busy with pro bono and miss out on real work, so it's a trade-off.
I personally have never billed an hour to pro bono and I don't plan on that ever changing. Don't buy the crap that it is good experience; good associates get good experience on real cases. If you need to represent some asylum applicant to take a deposition it's because you suck. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 3:09 PM Author: bright rehab french chef I disagree strongly with this one (and it contradicts your earlier tip about how getting hours is a good thing experience wise). You are right that you should never put yourself in a spot where pro-bono work makes you too busy to take on real work, but the experience from pro-bono is a huge leg up on others that just do billable work.
Getting to take the deposition is not the advantage of pro-bono, as you are right that eventually you will get these same experiences from billable work. The advantage is that when you get tapped to do a real deposition you have experience doing it and hopefully got many of your fuck ups out of the way on the pro-bono one. For the same reason that it is smart to do mock interviews before real ones, it is similarly smart to do pro-bono depositions, court appearances, drafting motions, etc. before you have to do them for real cases. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 3:18 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house This is true, but in my experience partners don't really regard the pro bono deposition as meaningful experience. This may be different at other firms and in those cases pro bono may make sense.
But if it would take 200 hours of pro bono work to get the chance to do 1 or 2 meaningful things, I would rather be doing client work. That's just too much time to waste on something that doesn't generate revenue. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 4:02 PM Author: bright rehab french chef The key is to pick your pro-bono well. Some have much more valuable experience - I took an immigration one with another first year (at the time) and we have had about 6 court appearances plus two briefs we drafted by ourselves. Definitely made me much more confident when I had to draft a real brief and handle a depo on my own.
I agree that the partners don't really care about pro-bono (unless it is there pet project, but then it is really the same as billable). You should never talk up your pro-bono experience (i.e. mentioning that you can handle a depo on your own since you did one is some crap pro-bono case). Just do it for yourself.
Finally, I think another mistake people make with pro-bono is handling all the crap themselves. Once you're a second or third year, you can run your own pro-bono and dump the crap on some eager first year and keep the good experiences for yourself. For this reason as a first year, you should never agree to join a pro-bono team - always get your own case with others first years (plus a partner to "oversee") |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:41 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #13: Do not rotate between practice groups if you can help it. Pick something busy and immerse yourself in it. At the end of the day, it's all just shuffling of different types of paper and you will be equally fulfilled/not in corporate finance as you will be in M&A.
All rotating does is allow the firm to avoid training you for 1 or 2 years while you do different forms of menial work. It also allows them to bring you along "slowly" which makes you less marketable to other opportunities. |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:44 PM Author: Indecent gay wizard chad Sad as it may be, I think this is a good tip, especially if the two groups aren't very closely related. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667523) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 9:07 PM Author: ruby awkward boiling water I disagree with this, at least for top nyc firms that do formal corporate rotations, even ITE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676906) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 9:08 PM Author: ungodly brunch yes, as long as the firm is large enough where there are multiple corporate groups with rockstar practices (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676912) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:40 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house If you have no choice but to rotate, then rotate. But all things being equal I don't think rotating makes much sense. A corporate rotation at the beginning can be fine because the skills translate (financing docs vs. merger docs) and so much of what you are learning is how to be a professional at the highest level: formatting docs properly, writing professional emails and dealing with colleagues and superiors. But you should specialize as soon as you can (without getting overly pigeonholed -- don't be the guy who only does A/R securitization facilities, or something like that). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680074) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2009 10:43 PM Author: purple really tough guy trump supporter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12664480) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:04 PM Author: razzle round eye This thread is genius. Copy and save it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667399) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 12:42 PM Author: vivacious stage Subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBfhqUcyGlg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRRHQbS56Y&feature=PlayList&p=4461DAA7545455D8&index=37&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667518) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 1:51 PM Author: slimy spectacular party of the first part haunted graveyard This is some of the worst striverish advice I've ever heard. Following this advice will only ensure that you kill yourself and then told to GTFO out as an 8th year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667824) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 2:13 PM Author: Infuriating floppy state coldplay fan Guys - this the OP flame or not? Biglaw sounds like it absolutely sucks even worse than how many XOXOers complain about the work culture (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12667972) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 9:20 PM Author: beady-eyed ocher hissy fit antidepressant drug I think if you do all of these things, you probably WILL get ahead but they aren't necessary. Also, I think this is NYC-centric advice. It's not that hardcore everywhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12670703) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 2:46 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house What do you think happens when you gather very bright, talented, ambitious people and allow them to compete against each other while acquiring skills that are not terribly fungible to other industries with enormous amounts of money at stake? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12674235) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:29 PM Author: indigo dashing heaven knife 75% flame. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738469) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 2:29 PM Author: Laughsome Drab Space 1. keep your head down and your mouth shut.
2. think twice before writing something or submitting an assignment.
3. proofread everything at least twice.
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:03 PM Author: Transparent razzle-dazzle national security agency ladyboy ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675622) |
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Date: April 6th, 2011 3:07 AM Author: Fluffy bbw yarmulke (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#17696709) |
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Date: September 4th, 2009 9:43 PM Author: Slap-happy contagious theatre pocket flask Disclaimer: Not in an NYC Firm.
That said, this is great advice for being a much hated but gainfully employed associate. Bad advice if you're shooting for partner. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 2:45 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house As long as you are basically nice to everyone nobody is going to dislike you. Your skill will make them appreciate you as a colleague.
It's great advice for shooting for partner. And better advice for surviving brutal partner politics.
Some time ago, another associate at my firm had a third associate quietly fired. He has since gone around for weeks talking about how much he disagrees with the decision and he regularly reports to the group about spending time with her socially. I'm not sure anyone besides me realizes that he got her pushed out (by blaming her for something that probably wasn't her fault, but these are life's breaks - she was not considered a star). |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:13 PM Author: irradiated parlour gaping what's your point about the last paragraph? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12679933) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:19 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house The point is it doesn't matter how hard you gun so long as you maintain the perception of being a good co-worker. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12679959) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 2:41 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #14: You will make mistakes with the work you are assigned. Some of these mistakes will basically be impossible to track down (i.e., missing an important doc on a doc review -- but beware, I'm aware of a V10 firm this past year that was auditing its first years by duplicating doc review in other offices and comparing the results by associate). Others will emerge eventually.
The key is to be on top of your mistakes and proactive about them. Partners appreciate associates who are honest and good enough to spot their own mistakes.
There is a reason this is called practice. Your advice, documents and motions will never be perfect, but the key is to strive for perfection.
Beware of midlevels and seniors who will blame you for their mistakes. If they were in charge of reviewing your docs and they did not fix what you did wrong, it is now their mistake and they should reap the consequences of their own sloppiness. |
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Date: September 7th, 2009 2:21 AM Author: effete resort famous landscape painting I've been in this situation before where I got blamed for a midlevel's mistake. Luckily that midlevel was fired, but at the time I just kept quiet about it.
Is staying quiet the right approach? |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:05 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Too context dependent to generalize. I would quietly let the senior associates in your group know (if they are not aligned with that particular midlevel) and defer to their judgment on whether the partners should know. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12763146) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 2:54 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #15: As a lawyer, you are defined by the work you no longer do. When you come in, you mostly do doc review, diligence and summarizing (I will admit I have no idea what you do in shit groups like Tax). At some point, some members of your class will begin to have opportunities to do more meaningful work and "graduate" from the entry level garbage. Some of this will be randomness and chance, but on the average the market is efficient.
Then, some of your class will begin to spend most of their time reviewing the work done by others. The next step is to move on to spending your time selling your services and advising clients.
Your value as an attorney is determined by where you stand along this continuum. Many fail to move past the doc review and diligence phase and find themselves on the lateral market with no skills. More fail to graduate to the reviewer (senior associate stage), and many more fail to progress to spending all of their time advising clients and selling legal services.
I laugh when I hear fifth years at other firms brag about how they spend "all their time doing real work, like writing motions." That is lower level midlevel associate work and you are behind the curve.
At some point, you will be able to talk to your law school friends and understand very easily where people stand at their firms by the work they are doing and the clients they are doing it for. This is how the lateral market works, but more on that in another post. |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 1:14 PM Author: brindle alcoholic house preventive strike I have no doubt this is all true. My firm is awesome, however, because I just finished my firsy year but I already handle small matters for partners - I have tried a case and argued numerous motions and petitions, and I have an appellate argument coming up. Its interesting how everyone goes with the herd to cities, but if you venture out into smaller markets, you can actually be a lawyer early in your career. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12743812) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 3:21 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #16: All menial work is a learning experience if you treat it that way. If you are given tons of doc review and you treat it like an opportunity to learn how to fit facts to law you will gain legal skills. If you treat it as an opportunity to spend the day idly clicking while flagging things non-responsive, you will gain nothing more than an entry on a time sheet.
Try to always have a sense of the big picture and how your piece fits in. This is harder at some firms and I appreciate that, but it is still worth trying. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:11 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic While the most meta, this is some of the cleverist advice in this thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675671) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 9:21 PM Author: Red nowag clever how? if you can delude yourself into thinking that doc review is meaningful, it's a sign that your life really sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676986) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:12 AM Author: ungodly brunch What is bad about?
Try to always have a sense of the big picture and how your piece fits in. This is harder at some firms and I appreciate that, but it is still worth trying.
I think that is one of the most important parts of biglaw. helps to rationalize the pain |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 6:49 PM Author: cream trip cuckold brilliant thread, basically the xoxo version of The Prince (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12675874) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 8:17 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #17: Credentials cut both ways. Partners love to have Harvard Law Review people around because it makes them feel good to have smart people working for them (some partners actually care about mentoring you, but this is rare). Partners also love it when that same Harvard Law Review guy fails ("Gee, Jonny was magna cum laude at Harvard but he couldn't write motions well enough to work at this firm!") because it makes them feel good to see smart people who aren't able to do the work at the level they see themselves at. It affirms their sense of self-worth, which is based in large part on their belief that they are among the very best practitioners of their craft in the world. It is always nice to know you are the best and to see very smart people who are not good enough.
So be aware, if your credentials are good for your firm, there will be people who will be looking for you to fail. You are still much better situated than those whose credentials are below average at their firms, because they will find themselves having a hard time being taken seriously ("This research assignment is over the head of a Fordham associate."). The tyranny of low expectations is a much harder trap to escape. |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 9:10 PM Author: ungodly brunch This is ultimately why non-t10 associates must bust their asses twice as hard to shine the first few years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676922) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 8:38 PM Author: Amethyst point this has been really helpful. please continue updating this thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676742) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 9:09 PM Author: vermilion mewling dysfunction cp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12676920) |
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Date: September 5th, 2009 11:07 PM Author: chestnut flickering electric furnace Date: September 3rd, 2009 1:30 AM "Author: cap'n crunch
I think you are missing the fact that, for the people who truly enjoy practicing law and are good at it, practice at a high level offers a combination of fast-paced stimulating work, challenge and excitement that family life just can't hope to match. It's a choice you might find sad, but it's a choice that isn't without upside.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12658973)"
YFWGI |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 12:20 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #18: Take the hints the more senior associates offer you. For example, some groups have a dinner culture where the associates all eat together every night, and it is important for you to be there with them if that is the case. This is true even if you did no work and could have left at 3, because otherwise someone will mention at dinner how "available" you are (which you should not be, as your skills should be in demand by your group). Respect your group's culture.
I have a law school friend who worked in a finance group during the boom where the culture was for the associates to leave together around midnight every night. He left at 9 sometime in his first month and was promptly called back in by another associate. He left at 10 the next night and was called back in again, and at this point he took the hint and realized how things worked. That associate was not tormenting him; he was teaching him how to practice law at that firm and in that group. That's called mentorship. He billed slightly over 3000 hours that year.
You get more flexibility to do things your way as you prove yourself, but it takes a while for that to happen. Assuming you have proven yourself before you actually have can be fatal. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 12:57 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12679864) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:18 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Certainly not everywhere. I was as horrified as you when he told me this story (he was my age, but a class year ahead in law school so I was an innocent 3L). At the time, he told me: "There are far worse things that happen to you in BIGLAW besides working all the time." He is on his way to being a meaningful finance lawyer at a top New York firm and that is what matters the most.
(As an aside, a law school classmate summered in his group and came back and told me: "I'm so excited about <Finance Group X>! It's a lifestyle group!" I kept a straight face). And now I see he was completely right. You would heavily prefer to be a star associate who works 24/7 to someone who is disregarded and can't get quality work. The lack of quality work leads to a lack of quality exit options, and so on. I have another friend who is a third year in a large group at a V5 and has been completely written off by his group and will never be able to advance beyond very menial due diligence. He was HYP, HYS and his career basically ended 3 months in when he couldn't find a way to fit in in his group. Sitting there watching your peers surpass you is far worse than sitting there watching the clock strike midnight, at least if you ever intended to make a career of doing sophisticated work for sophisticated clients.
If you are routinely leaving hours before your colleagues to make it home for dinner, it is not because you are "clever" or your colleagues are "gunners." It's because nobody trusts you to do the demanding, time-intensive assignments that are the bread and butter of practice at this level. I would rather work all the time than suck at my job.
If your goal was to leave Simpson Thacher to go work at Desutsche Bank performing some horrific compliance function with no upward mobility, feel free to walk out at 6. But some of us want real careers. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:28 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680007) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:34 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Lots of people do and they go on to clear debt trades for a living at BNP Paribas. Carry on if that's your goal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680037) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:29 PM Author: ruby awkward boiling water Do you think the better exit options come about because you are exposed to better clients and better work or because senior people would be willing to go to bat for you for exit options?
I don't think I've seen particularly meaningful differences in exit options between star and not star associates (equalizing for credentials) though admit I haven't had a lot of exposure to this yet. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:32 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Both -- better work, better clients, and partners who like you and will help you make it to where you want to go.
In my experience, star midlevels can go on to do really cool things while guys who were basically bodies end up taking something through a recruiter that isn't especially interesting. The great exit options seem to come from the clients you work for reaching out to you or partners offering to place you somewhere after a client reaches out to them with an offer to go somewhere. But some partners definitely use those opportunities to place their below average associates who are not great lawyers to build a network, but they aren't getting great jobs out of them.
Where do you typically see people go and at what level do they do it? |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:34 PM Author: irradiated parlour gaping can you describe some of the fantastic exit options? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680041) |
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Date: September 7th, 2009 11:20 AM Author: ruby awkward boiling water Nobody's leaving nowadays but when I was very junior, I saw a bunch of people go inhouse at investment banks, but mostly as compliance type roles you've been denigrating but with inflated VP titles, a few as actual bankers (Associates), a couple go to pe firms/hedge funds as general counsel type or assistance general counsel positions (and a couple as actual principal investors - Associate/Senior Associate).
I was too junior/not well connected enough to really know all the details regarding why people left, how they got their positions, etc.
Right now, people are going to less prestigious firms since they are being forced out/told early that they aren't making partner. Have not seen anyone go to an attractive looking opportunity in the past year. |
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Date: November 21st, 2011 10:43 PM Author: Lemon Temple Rigpig your friend's former finance group colleagues sound like asshole commies (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#19417804) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 1:40 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12680072) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 10:23 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #19: The biglaw daily schedule can be cruel for new associates. The people who have work to pass out will often spend the entire "workday" (say, 9-6) on the phone with clients, opposing counsel and others. Thus, they may not get around to passing out the work that must be done before 6pm or 7pm, and sometimes even later. Sometimes, this process won't be complete until Friday evening, when the weekend's work will be passed out.
This can be harsh for a junior who does not have a steady diet of work from other cases or deals and who is forced to put in "face time" from 10 until 6 and then work until midnight to only record four or five hours of time. It is annoying to spend all week sitting around nothing only to be told you are spending your entire weekend in a conference room proofreading prospecti for a Monday offering.
Suck it up and live with it. As you grow and become more skilled, you will be able to fill in the "workday" with client matters.
You will tell your friends what is happening and complain: "<my senior/mid-level/partner> is inefficient." But it's just the nature of the work and how things get done. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 11:11 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12683922) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 11:13 PM Author: Infuriating floppy state coldplay fan We don't appreciate sarcasm around here. We don't feel like your a team player. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12683955) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 8:02 PM Author: Ivory address idiot "But it's just the nature of the work and how things get done." When I hear this I automatically think "inefficient." Stop making excuses for terrible management at BIGLAW. |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 10:44 PM Author: Infuriating floppy state coldplay fan PROTIP #20: BIGLAW sucks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12683709) |
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Date: September 6th, 2009 11:46 PM Author: vivacious stage watch this video on mute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEzh10_xoqw
while listening this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHxoEKoM1Ew |
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Date: September 7th, 2009 10:42 AM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #21: Never trust the work product of a paralegal, secretary or service partner. If you turn something in, it has your name on it and "Oh, the paralegal must have missed a comma" is never an acceptable excuse. Always check everything you delegate with a fine toothed comb and never be caught flatfoot explaining why your secretary screwed up.
Secretaries are basically bored with their jobs and uninterested in doing a good job for associates, since they stay employed by kissing partner ass. Don't be brought down because you thought your secretary would be able to enter all of the partner's changes on her own -- double check those changes. |
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Date: September 9th, 2009 11:25 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #22: Your coworkers are NOT your friends.
Many, especially those who went straight from college to law school, start at their firms and believe they are starting another version of the same experience they've had for the past 7 years. They go into a place full of older people with a huge group that is roughly the same "age," and have a (often randomly assigned) "officemate." They may even have a base of shared "good times" from the summer. It's law school all over again, right?
Wrong. Your associate mentor is NOT the older girl in your sorority and your partner mentor is not the kindly professor who took favor of you when you acted like you a gave a shit about their worthless research into the sociology of the internet. This is BIGLAW. You will not part ways after 3 years as in law school, or after 120 college credits. You do not "graduate" from biglaw on a regular schedule; rather, you and your classmates will lose touch when one of you reaches your ceiling as an attorney and is asked to leave.
This is cruel, especially for those of you who grew up at good law schools where "there are enough spoils to go around." But in BIGLAW, the pyramid must shrink and the weak must go and at some point you will be the next person in line.
This filters down to how you interact. Act like a professional. Be cordial and embrace the camaraderie inherent in working long hours and on huge deal teams and doc reviews, joke and bond over the soul-crushing working conditions and your plans to "exit" to personal training or teaching grammar school. But don't plan on meeting the godfather of your child or your next BFF. One day, you will be gone and these people will be too busy reaching for the corner office to ever remember that a person with your name worked there. Vaguely, someone might remember that your class used to have 6 Columbia people and you are now down to 4, but you will not leave your mark and your presence will not be missed. |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:04 PM Author: Amethyst point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12730849) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:42 PM Author: insane frum dingle berry BEST ADVICE/THREAD EVER. Do you have any callback advice? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731292) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 8:42 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Act natural, be confident, do your research and understand what BIGLAW is all about. Then, communicate having done these things.
I've spent entire callback interviews talking about people's summer internships, so I am not particular on what the conversation is. I just want to know that you are smart, can hold court on a variety of topics and have some logical nexus to corporate law.
If your resume screams "do-gooder who is selling out" I tend to ding you. |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:45 PM Author: Mahogany Offensive Plaza cavet to Protip #22: getting drunk with partners is a great way to figure out how things really work and to get information that is helpful to your career (both for leverage and development). I tuned the carbs on a partner's sports car when I was a summer, people were like that is dumb, this is about how you practice law, not how you tune carbs, but the partner was very appreciative and when I showed up for work after my clerkship, he threw me a big case because he figured if I could tune triple side draft carbs (after two professionals could not) I could run a case without senior associate help. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731313) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:52 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic this is very highly credited (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731352) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 8:03 PM Author: Mahogany Offensive Plaza Harder to fire someone you actually like. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731458) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:10 PM Author: titillating mint dilemma psychic yep, as long as you do a modicum of quality work and don't let anything big slip, it's entirely personality driven (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738232) |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:42 PM Author: Mahogany Offensive Plaza Protip 23: It is unlikely as a junior that you will be able to be the "go to" associate for the uber-top partners, however, it is very possible for you to be the "go to" assocaite for the top younger partners. You will be able to identify who they are and 7-10 years down the road they will be the uber-partners who make the partnership decisions when the old gaurd is retired or semi-retired.
Protip 24: To become a go to associate you need to be available 24/7. This means sleeping with your cell or preferably your blackberry on the night stand so the 2am emails can be answered. If the partner you work for has tons of work you should not take on time consuming work from other partners without his approval. He will whore you out on appropriate cases so that other partners have a good impression of you, but that it is still clear that you are his bitch. |
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Date: September 12th, 2009 7:56 PM Author: multi-colored canary mediation Wow, the law blows, glad I didn't go into it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12731389) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 7:37 PM Author: bipolar crystalline genital piercing theater So obviously law is for people without any real skills who in turn get bitched at and shit on by older people without any real skills. I'll stick with the skilled trades, thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738037) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:31 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738494) |
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Date: September 13th, 2009 8:33 PM Author: pea-brained school cafeteria potus at quixtar, work and play fit together. we are the real lifestyle firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12738510) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 4:12 AM Author: Slap-happy contagious theatre pocket flask Just a recipe for burnout. Very few people can be fully dedicated to the job to this extent. The people who are rarely make good business developers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12742717) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 2:50 AM Author: stimulating spruce base striped hyena Clearly, where OP works defines the utility of this thread. Frankly, it reeks of Latham. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12742555) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 8:39 AM Author: Blathering range coffee pot some great PROTIPS here.
my question: how to get sheltered by the rainmakers in your group so as to avoid working on crappy projects for the service partners? |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 3:21 PM Author: vermilion mewling dysfunction this thread is depressing the hell out of me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12744523) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 5:05 PM Author: poppy locus This thread kind of makes me laugh. My first question; cap'n crunch, are you a partner or a mid-level? A lot of this stuff sounds like great advice if you want to avoid getting fired as a first year, but working hard alone is not going to make you partner. Where are the business development tips? The fact that you aren't including these makes me think you aren't a partner.
My second question is: seriously? Why anyone would gladly devote themselves to their career to this extent is beyond me. It's not like you're going to make partner. If you're at a V10 NYC firm, you're not. Just accept it. Be a good associate, work hard hours, and aim for getting good enough experience to get you a good exit opp. Don't slave away like this. |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 5:10 PM Author: poppy locus Here, I'll give some real protips, though I'm not a partner.
PROTIP No. 104: Spend a few hours every month networking with federal gov'n attorneys.
PROTIP No. 105: Plan to leave NYC as soon as possible or, better yet, never work there.
PROTIP No. 106: Learn how to develop a book of business. You probably won't become a rainmaker when you are a fifth year associate, but if you can show that you have the potential to bring in business, firms will be much more likely to make you partner. Want to know how to do this? I have some great ideas (or, at least, some ideas that seem great to a non-partner), but I'm not telling. |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 9:47 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I won't reveal my class year, but the entire premise of this thread is to help associates starting this fall. See: title of the thread, supra.
This advice will help you across the mighty spectrum of BIGLAW. It is perhaps LEAST helpful at certain V10 firms where the firm itself is the draw to clients and baller partners are paid lockstep with the riff raff.
Perhaps you haven't heard of ITE. Firms used to have a place for people giving 90%, and they still do -- the unemployment line. |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 5:29 PM Author: mauve masturbator A+ thread, should be stickied. Reminder for current law students: this is the mountaintop. You've "made it" if you get here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12745351) |
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Date: September 14th, 2009 8:20 PM Author: Blathering range coffee pot yeah rach sticky this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12746578) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 12:28 PM Author: poppy locus Lol don't sticky this thread, it's a bunch of crap. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12751751) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 9:57 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: Hmm. Pro tips?
All right. Figure out whether you are a short timer or gunning for partner. It's an important choice. Because what you do in the year or three after will matter more.
For the short timers?
1) Get on a long term, never ending case. It's your biggest duty. Be the best damn doc reviewer or supervisor or interrogatory drafter or whatever. But choose a long term case. You want something that's going to trial in 2013.
2) Start launching the freedom launch. It's either clerking (if you haven't), mid law, or the federal government.
3) If you're 31-33 and married, start thinking about having your first kid. You need to take an assessment of your life, what sort of parent you want to be and whether time is on your side. I'll start a pregnancy and biglaw firm post if there are enough people interested in family life. |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 10:06 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house These "protips" are guaranteed to foreclose the possibility of a meaningful career.
If that's what you want, feel free to follow marrymejane and gun hard for that 50k DA job. |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 10:17 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: Ha! Well, I guess my "career" was a fail.
I worked at v-50 (well, V-20) firms on the east and west coasts for a few years and managed to land enough bonuses to pay off my and my spouse's student loans and save a bit. I clerked (and enjoyed salary matching). I took maternity leave while in big law (twice) and I am now working for the federal government as a GS-15 making 100K (plus). So yes. I am a fail. I am a very, very big fail in terms of having that "meaningful career" you are talking about.
But luckily I get to work four ten hour days. So, is it the lack of Mondays that is the big fail? Because I do know for the kind of person who loves Monday, my choices might not be boss.
Fool.
My pro tips might be the most useful comment in this entire thread. |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 11:16 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house you are the breadwinner in your house? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12756908) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 11:25 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: here is the story morning glory... Together. My husband and I are a team (another marriage lesson, babies). We both work. But our careers are family friendly. It is wash, love. I've been the pauper and he's been the prince. And vice versa. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12757026) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 11:41 PM Author: Flushed death wish jew Ty for this. I was about ready to start looking for exit opportunities before even starting work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12757210) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:08 PM Author: poppy locus God, I agree with this 100%. My plan is to make something between $100K and $200K and combine that with my wife's income of something between $100K and $200K. We will certainly live well on a $200-400K annual income (plus whatever savings we have left over from my 2-3 years in biglaw). I will then use my free time to do the things that I enjoy--reading, playing sports, spending time with friends and family, etc. Sure, there's a cost to this lifestyle--I won't be able to travel to Europe (as much), I won't work on Enron-size cases, and paying for my kids' college will be something I will really have to plan for. But I'll take that tradeoff.
What crunch proposes is a different lifestyle. He suggests that you should work 80 hour weeks in the hopes that you will make between $400K and 5M per year. There are costs to his path too. Less free time. Higher chance of divorce. Less time with the kids (if you have them). Etc. If you are OK with those kind of tradeoffs, then by all means follow his advice. There's nothing wrong with wanting expensive stuff and doing what it takes to get it. But don't pretend that it's your only choice. (Also, if your goal in life is to make a ton of money through hard work, reconsider whether the law is the best path to do that. You'd make a ton more in finance, even ITE.) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:15 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: Exactly The game is to cash in and cash out. I loved every second of my time in firms but I have to say we do quite well even though I make much less than before. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12760529) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 5:00 PM Author: Bearded Disturbing Private Investor Laser Beams Good shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930763) |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 10:09 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #23: As you first experience the full force of BIGLAW, you will begin to tell yourself little lies about how you "don't need this job" and "could live happily on half the money."
Take a good look at your budget and your tastes and your loan statements. Imagine a wife and some babies. You cannot afford to live on "half the money." Realizing this is important, because it can discipline you into doing good work. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:01 PM Author: poppy locus Lol, of course you can live on $100K per year. The median household income in America is $40K. Crunch, you have made some life choices that are by no means wrong in any way, but don't pretend that your path is the only correct one.
The other statement of yours that makes me laugh is the one above about "someone didn't work on thanksgiving, and now they can't provide for their family." Is making $100K as a gov'n or midlaw lawyer not providing for the family? Is making $500K but never being home providing for the family? Personally, I think that once you make more than a certain amount, you're not providing for the family, you're satisfying your own ego, or your need to buy expensive things. Hell, if you want to work super hard to be able to afford vacations in Italy, more power to you. But don't kid yourself; you're not "providing for your family." They will be just fine if you make $100K or $150K and go camping in the nearby mountains. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:04 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house The individual I am talking about did not work on thanksgiving and now sits on unemployment making 400/wk. I would call that not providing for family.
100k in gov't can be fine, if you are willing to sacrifice certain material comforts. But why suffer through five years of BIGLAW to reach a 100k job? Go teach in a good suburban school district or work your way up in a Fortune 500. |
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Date: September 15th, 2009 10:15 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house PROTIP #24: Try to find where the bodies are buried. How many people started in the class ahead of you? Who are the people who were canned almost immediately who nobody talks about? Where are they now?
It is important to learn these things so you can avoid joining them in the career graveyard. The firm's alumni database can be very helpful in this regard. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:09 PM Author: cracking lilac native *is depressed* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12760470) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:14 PM Author: poppy locus Message to everyone: Crunch's advice is great if you're a first year trying to avoid layoffs, but this is not the way to make partner. Ever hear of the phrase "finder, minder, grinder?" It's a description of what law firms are looking for in potential partners, and the gist of it is that law firms are looking for people who can work hard (grind) and bring in business (find). I'm not sure what "minder" is supposed to signify; maybe management. In any event, crunch is telling you how to be the ultimate grinder. But he's giving you no tips on business generation, probably because he doesn't know anything about that yet. I'm not going to share what little I know, but I'll say this: If you spend 80 hours a week doing grinder stuff, you won't be spending any time building your business generation skills.
One response is that you're not supposed to bring in business as a first year. Yes, this is correct. In fact, going the 100% grinder route as a first year probably isn't terrible. But by the time you are a fifth year, you do want to be in a position where even if you can't actually bring in a ton of business by yourself, you are able to contribute to your firm's generation efforts, and you are developping a promising strategy for creating your own book of business. Of course, this takes time, and you should be building towards this as a second, third, and fourth year.
This is why crunch's posts are such epic fails. Sure, some of his advice is good. Work hard. Work weekends. Whatever. But if you want to be a partner, you have to learn how to develop a book of business.
Edit: But I should reiterate, if you're a first year who is afraid of layoffs, crunch's advice is probably good. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:01 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house I agree with all of this.
The reason I did not give business generation advice is because this thread is for people who have no skills to sell.
Business generation advice will also be VERY firm-specific (and practice group specific) and trying to bring in clients too early is stupid because you won't have the ability to run their deals for them.
By keeping people away from service groups and service partners I am doing my best to set them up to generate revenue.
Obviously, there comes a point when the goal becomes building a book of portable business so you can cash in. But that is the matter for another thread. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 3:26 PM Author: poppy locus More criticism of crunch's advice. One other reason to slave away in the hopes of making partner at a top firm is to get the better work and professional recognition that comes along with it. But how badly do you really want this? At best, what crunch's approach will get you to is this: You go to a firm social event or luncheon, and everyone whispers behind your back: Man, that guy is a baller lawyer. Sometimes they say it to your face. Young lawyers listen to you and sometimes look up to you. Not too shabby, right?
But remember, you are working 80 hours a week for years to get here. (And you may not even make it; it's tough to make partner at a top firm even if you do everything right.) You are not going to be the best parent in the world. You are going to lose touch with your college, high school, and law school friends.
So imagine, instead, that you work moderately hard (say 50-60 hours a week) and become a reasonably successful lawyer who does not make partner at a top firm. Now you have more time for your family. Your kids grow up to love you, and they let you know. You have nourished long-term friendships. You have a good relationshp with your wife/husband. You go camping with the guys/shopping with the girls.
Which would you rather have: The respect of colleagues and professionals, or the love and friendship of friends and family? |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 6:55 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: Exactly There are too many arbitrary factors out of your control to make it worth grinding for years to finally land the big PPP payout. I've seen too many partners get dropped by clients for bad results which were bound to happen. I've seen clients pack up and move when rates got too high. I've seen promising young partners get tossed under the bus by greedy boomer partners who are more than happy to milk the profits per partners until they get booted for retirement.
I kind of realized that it wasn't worth the hassle. We had a toddler, spent a ton on childcare, I had two more kids, and we both just decided enough was enough. I didn't want to fight biology and put off having a family. It's all a risk and there are tradeoffs. These tips will let you keep your job for five years. It will be of no use after that point since you need to make some serious game day choices, including dedicating time to land clients, fight firm politics, and work 70 hour weeks.
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Date: September 16th, 2009 7:10 PM Author: Federal sex offender you're a woman. your viewpoint is only valuable for members of the TTT gender. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12762080) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 7:39 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: Tell that to your mother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12762324) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 7:41 PM Author: domesticated adventurous turdskin property (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12762329) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 7:42 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: I'm around for a bit tonight, so I'll start a new post (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12762339) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 8:22 PM Author: poppy locus Lol, I'm a man. Maybe there are differences, but that doesn't mean every man has to make the choices crunch made. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12762673) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 10:15 PM Author: lime water buffalo people who are hurt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12763786) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 8:57 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Dated advice. Firms are ruthlessly cutting people who aren't committed to the work of the firm ITE, and that may continue if the industry trends towards lower levels of leverage more generally.
It's also much easier to have some balance in your life once you establish yourself as a baller associate and people won't question certain liberties. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:43 PM Author: Apoplectic adulterous wagecucks shitlib Subject: That won't work If your kid ends up with Autism or if your wife suddenly passes away.
Life is random and you can't control everything. |
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Date: September 17th, 2009 1:47 AM Author: poppy locus Well, my advice is more about long term balance than short term balance. If you think your firm is cutting people who don't work 80 hours a week, it may make sense to work 80 hours a week for the year or two it takes for that mentality to go away, or for you to find another job. It all depends on how marketable you think you are, whether you are at the point in your life where you really need the free time (i.e., do you have kids, are you married, etc.), and other stuff. But, for the medium and long term, you want to have a career plan that allows you to reduce your work week to at least 60 hours. And there are ways to do this--going in house, working for the gov'n, smaller firms, smaller cities, etc.
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:04 PM Author: Marvelous metal area Don't suck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12763104) |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:10 PM Author: Dead Fragrant Indian Lodge Milk (1) When you get assigned to work on an existing matter that already has a substantial file (i.e. complaint, motions, discovery, etc) you should take the time to review these materials.
If its a huge matter, then you'll likely be billing tons of hours on it. That means you can thoroughly review the file, then find somewhere to bill those hours.
Even if it takes you 6 or 7 hours to run through the docket and get up to speed, that is time well-spent. You can make yourself much more useful on the case by actually knowing what the fuck is going on.
(2) Endeavor to know shit related to the case that partners/senior associates will not expect you to know. This means doing (1) above. This also means anticipating questions that will crop up and tracking down the answer.
(3) Provided that there are no apparent conflicts, you should not hesitate to use lawyers at other firms as resources. Somebody at Firm X ran a similar case last year? Sure, you can pull their motions off of Pacer. But if that doesn't answer your question, just call the attorney of record in that case. Lawyers generally love to talk. And if you're a first or second-year associate at a reputable firm, and you're working on similar subject matter, I'd wager that most lawyers would be willing to talk with you for a couple of minutes. How do I do this? I generally introduce myself, say I'm working on a similar issue, and that I thought their motion was exceptionally well-written. At that point, they usually answer whatever questions I might have.
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:13 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house 1 & 2 are both great advice.
I question 3. I've never called someone outside the firm who wasn't a good friend for advice. Partners do that sort of stuff all the time, but it's part of the tit-for-tat favor trading that characterizes client service of this level.
I would not call a partner at another firm and ask them stupid questions because that partner could get me in trouble with my partners. Stupid questions are for senior associates. |
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:17 PM Author: Dead Fragrant Indian Lodge Milk If you don't ask stupid questions, then this is not a problem.
Granted, 1 & 2 are applicable across the board. 3 really depends on (1) who you are (2) where you work.
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Date: September 16th, 2009 9:25 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Give an example of #3. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12763338) |
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Date: September 17th, 2009 2:17 PM Author: Federal sex offender Proclaim loudly and often that Tucker Max is your hero. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12768772) |
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Date: September 17th, 2009 2:30 PM Author: vivacious stage Subject: lbc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sz61R2acuo&feature=related (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12768865) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:52 PM Author: aphrodisiac cruise ship kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930686) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:54 PM Author: Bearded Disturbing Private Investor Laser Beams It is precisely people like the OP who make me hate my fucking job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930710) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:58 PM Author: Supple faggotry quit now, you won't like it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930743) |
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Date: October 7th, 2009 4:58 PM Author: chrome place of business den sad flame is sad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12930744) |
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Date: October 11th, 2009 5:24 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house maybe you wouldn't be jobless if you'd had a thread like this when you were a first year (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#12964261) |
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Date: November 4th, 2009 9:57 PM Author: light tantric codepig (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#13180277) |
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Date: December 9th, 2009 9:09 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Bump. Any questions, 09s?
The 09s at my shop are hungry as hell. They work like absolute dogs and don't look at you upset when you hand them a weekend's work of drudgery. There is one who hasn't slept since September. She looks like shit.
Several of them are clearly surpassing the 08s and reviews are imminent. |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 5:48 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house Any questions kids? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#15795293) |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 5:45 PM Author: Olive quadroon chapel lol, what flame.
taking this advice is a great way for partners to think you're a dumbass suck up who's not too bright but enjoys putting in "face time." |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 5:52 PM Author: exciting rusted step-uncle's house This isn't flame. Notice the number of established BIGLAW posters who comment above that the advice is "credited."
I have done everything described above, to enormous career benefit. |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 6:00 PM Author: Olive quadroon chapel and i have done none of the above and i'm a great associate.
the point is if you do a good job and make yourself generally available, nobody gives a shit if you're in the office or not at 10pm to ask around for work. at least for lit, it's really hard to just a discrete assignment for somebody w/o having the background facts, so it's not even pausible that you can just jump into a new case and do some random assignment at 10pm. in the 10 min they need to explain things to you, they could've already done it themselves.
the way to be a good junior associate is to go the extra mile in your own cases/deals and rather than just brainlessly completing your assignments. if a partner says "find me cases that apply the beyond a reasonable doubt standard" you come back and say "actually i think we can argue that only a preponderance of the evidence standard applies," you're helping to dictate the strategy. 90% of associates will not question things and just spend 24 hours looking for every case they can find under the reasonable doubt standard and dutifully report it. the latter racks up more hours, but it adds "less value."
your advice, if it's not flame, will prevent you from getting fired, but it won't separate you as someone who has partnership potential b/c you're jsut another biglaw billing machine. |
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Date: August 15th, 2010 6:32 PM Author: cyan vibrant legend Yeah, this thread is pretty hilarious. It's so cute to watch people with the OP's mentality flame out and break down after a few years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#15795603) |
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Date: August 19th, 2011 1:33 AM Author: insecure home goal in life (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18787819) |
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Date: August 20th, 2011 12:53 AM Author: Startled clown sanctuary A couple things that have always paid off for me:
1) When you're assigned a case, learn the shit out of it, even if the assigning partner doesn't "need" you to. This is, of course, subject to time constraints. Don't shirk time-sensitive work to do this, but use your spare time to do it. Read the docs, look stuff up, etc. At some point you will become useful because of this.
2) This one dovetails nicely with #1 -- when you get an assignment with a partner who doesn't know you yet, spend some time prepping and come up with some good questions to ask, and then go to the partner and ask if he has a minute and ask a few questions. This will show that you're smart, curious and want to get things right. But make sure they're relevant and on point and not stuff you could figure out too easily yourself. It can be anything from questions about missing facts to questions about case strategy to just why a section of a certain document was approached a certain way. Almost invariably if you do a good job at this and seem smart, the partner will say something like "by the way, what else are you working on right now." At least that's been true for me. |
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Date: August 20th, 2011 12:55 AM Author: Startled clown sanctuary In a bigger picture sense, I think it's about striking the right balance between "I recognize that I'm the bottom of the pole here and I'm willing to unquestioningly do grunt work" with "I'm a sharp and highly responsible person who can be very useful to you here and more than just a grunt" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18793963) |
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Date: September 1st, 2011 6:43 PM Author: house-broken scarlet corn cake do you think OP killed himself after he got The Talk from his firm? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#18886248) |
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Date: November 22nd, 2011 3:02 PM Author: lascivious magical forum Yes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1077491&forum_id=2#19421299) |