On racism and achievement
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Date: May 28th, 2017 1:56 PM Author: naked office roast beef
I have been watching some moot court competitions today on Youtube. I've got to tell you something on racism and achievement that I hope starts to sink in. Finally.
I see these poor kids of color talking in front of white judges and my heart goes out to them. All you white boys see when such a judge stares you down is your father sternly lecturing you on some teenage shortcoming - you stare back at him defiantly thinking what a better man you're going to become in 30 years. A black girl looks at that white judge and sees 400 years of racial and gender subordination and oppression, or someone who is going home reading articles on black genetic inferiority in his smoking jacket over a brandy.
Yet you fail to see the subconscious triggers that would keep her from juggling a Socratic method style interrogation in the competition, and would even use her nervousness as fodder for your stereotypes.
Not fair. I don't know the ideal way around it but I say judge her on her written skills - let her write the briefs - and step into reality about what she's up against as an oralist. Take this observation and apply it to all other scenarios where a fortiori she won't perform as well under pressure.
That's my perception based on years of observation.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33414854) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 2:15 PM Author: naked office roast beef
Yes. I'm actually thinking about it as I watch.
My observation wasn't just about the young black woman.
She was paired with a young Asian woman who I thought was incredibly prepared. But then the old white male judge asked her a question, and wouldn't let her give a nuanced answer but just kept saying "I think you should be able to answer with a yes or a no," and she caved - worse than the black girl. That judge didn't stare down either of the white oralists that way. In fact, I feel like the white team confronted a much more collegial atmosphere with the white male jurists, almost mirthful at one point.
And you can tell that the team of color just started out more rigid and anxious, but I don't think that their more harrowing experience was altogether self-fulfilling. Maybe somewhere in the middle.
It's such a shame because I doubt either one of the girls of color is going to win best oralist, and yet they no doubt poured hours into the preparation.
That's racism and achievement in America.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33414965) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 2:23 PM Author: naked office roast beef
I'm not disputing that.
I would have never strived to be a litigator, I *know* my head and mouth will never be completely connected the way a well-bred and carefully nurtured students would be.
But I am a hell of a writer, and the chief justice of the competition even said that these cases are won on the briefs not at oral argument.
So the answer might be, put the pen in their hands and shut up about the genetic inferiority theories for a couple of generations. Back before there was any HYS and you were all taught in law offices, getting whipped and bringing coffee to the lawyers - you have no way of knowing whether you were any better than that black girl on the podium getting stared at in the eye by a scary white old.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33415013) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 2:55 PM Author: naked office roast beef
I'm in no way saying that inferior writing, analytical or other legal skills should be accepted. But I think the deck was stacked against the non-white team in this moot court competition.
Further, what's interesting is that your rigidity in not understanding my POV is part of the problem. You are not looking at the situation objectively.
Imagine a sporting event where you are given a sandbag, and told that you need to run with it for 500 yards, while your competitors don't. Are you likely to win, even with traits that otherwise put the odds in your favor?
Now, imagine a sporting event where you are given a sandbag, told to hold it for 5 minutes, drop it and then run the race - better chance then?
The sandbag is what the girls are holding in the moot court competition. It is the years of mental impressions in all walks of life that "you can't do it". We can all agree to disagree how heavy the sandbag is, but you have less of a chance when you try to argue that there's no such thing as the sandbag.
The second race is what you, I and those girls are expected to run when we perform any legal task away from the sandbag (ie., the ominous gaze of those judges and our leering moot candidate audience classmates). Things like writing a kick-ass legal brief, drafting a prospectus, even tasks like attending meetings, day to day strategy sessions and advising clients.
We would be such a better society if we understood everything that goes into creating a level playing field and stopped avoiding awkward conversations.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33415284) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 3:14 PM Author: naked office roast beef
There is no "far more prestigious" law school than mine, ty, and you don't know what firm I work(ed) for, so I call flame outright. And given that I went to HYP I really doubt you have anything on me.
Ever read any Lani Guinier, or did you just coast through your LS reading "I am a white man and can perpetuate my white man law into perpetuity" treatises? Which is entirely doable.
Fire away with your opposing theories, I am sure they are fascinating.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33415429) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 4:49 PM Author: naked office roast beef
I can see how charged this subject is, but I will not be moved away from the meaning of my original post.
I am not asking for special accommodations, merely common understanding for why skills appear in different people as they do.
This is more for an audience that would propound theories such as generic inferiority.
It is not a request that minorities who are not qualified move up the ladder.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33416008) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 9:32 PM Author: provocative tanning salon sound barrier
Where is my evidence? Lol. Achievement gaps across the world. Iq gaps across the world. Anatomical cranial differences between the races.
Now tell me some more anecdotal garbage about how you happen to kick ass.
This is why I hate hate dealing with blacks on this subject. They just don't get it. And when pushed they end w how "das rayciss" or "i got a BMW."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417441) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:06 PM Author: provocative tanning salon sound barrier
Lol at "good faith" not being racial realist, you mean.
The way to advance race relations is to create policies in a race realist perspective.
Edit: Btw I am having trouble following the sequence of your thoughts. Are you sure your a good writer?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417624) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 9:51 PM Author: naked office roast beef
I don't know how I would figure out what percentage of the blacks or whites I went to school with were off the charts smart vs. average. Some of the blacks seemed average to me, as did some of the whites.
Where are these studies that show that blacks who are admitted to law schools in the T14 are for the most part charity cases who can't hack it and end up ringing up people at Walmart? And how do such studies define success in the law, given that there are so many positions a capable lawyer can hold other than being a law firm partner?
Show me the good and nonbiased studies.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417547) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:04 PM Author: Very tactful area
just look at the SAT, MCAT, LSAT shit and bar passage rates w/r/t mismatch theory. there's no old white man scowling over you on standardized tests.
yes, there are plenty of black kids who are smart enough to be local DAs, crim guys, family lawyers, whatever. there are a handful of blacks are who are smart enough to be at the very top of the profession. but no one should wind up being anywhere based on anything other than their abilities, and all objective measures of intellectual verbal and written ability we have show blacks to be inferior regardless of their parents education level or income. yes i'm well aware a ton of people wind up in places they don't belong due to connections, and while that's bullshit too, it's worse bullshit to make that kind of bolstering official like AA.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417610) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:39 PM Author: naked office roast beef
Not sure how this became a thread on AA anyway since this was not an AA discussion. We're unpacking a chicken/ egg problem here, with me advancing in my OP that propounding a racial inferiority theory is patently racist and leads to underperformance in high pressure settings, and you ignoring that and somehow thinking you have the privilege to just go right ahead and advance these theories anyway despite the social costs. But there must be some benefit to offset the costs or you wouldn't be bothering to further the agenda, and it's hard for me to believe that the benefit to you would be to keep that black kid out of your HYS seat.
That said, if we're going to talk about AA, standardized tests etc., I can tell you that I had an LSAT question in the reading comprehension section that CLEARLY was biased in favor of those whose caregivers were either lawyers, political scientists or politicians and had talked to their kids about the issue, because there was a subtlety in it that you just could NOT get on the spot. It assumed knowledge that wasn't part of the fact pattern.
That doesn't help all whites, granted, but it does help whites disproportionately to the exclusion of blacks. That's one example, a drop in a rainstorm of advantages that keeps adding up. Like New Deal legislation was dissproportionately advantageous to whites, like Jim Crow was...
There is no study that controls for all of that and you just can't quote me a good nonbiased study on the topics you are trying to advance.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417833) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:57 PM Author: naked office roast beef
no trust me, in this one competition I saw one of the judges only asked one tough question and it was to the non-white team, and he didn't just interrupt her when she gave her answer, he made her rephrase the answer as a yes or a no. No one else had to do that, and he didn't ask anything substantive to the white team. Others had to probe deeper and answer questions more fully that were challenging, yes, but that question was particularly intimidating. And another judge basically said he didn't understand the answer that a non-white team member gave, he didn't do that to anyone on the white team. Yeah, yeah, maybe her answer wasn't clear. Well, I thought she made sense.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417930) |
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:10 PM Author: provocative tanning salon sound barrier
What on earth is this mush.
Yes slavery etc was disrespectful. And we ended it.
I am harmed personally by aa in any number of ways.
We all should have to work hard. Including blacks.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417655)
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Date: May 28th, 2017 10:20 PM Author: Very tactful area
you mean the descendants of the ones who were smart and capable enough to completely conquer and control the ones who wound up here?
through my career and my wife's, i've had exposure to way more than an average amount of nigerian lawyers, doctors, engineers, academics, and pharmacists. they're almost always extremely capable, friendly, calm, and orderly. i wonder why they're so successful?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417720)
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Date: May 29th, 2017 2:46 PM Author: naked office roast beef
It iseems as if you are deliberately inventing straw men to avoid the real issue, and thereby a solution. No one is arguing that anyone should be handheld past a training period. But to use your parlance to make you more comfortable, school -ALL of that time - IS the training period.
I am sorry for the fact that you haven't received any special accommodations in your life. Life is a shit show for a lot of us. I also started as a busboy etc, and I was assaulted and harassed all through school, including Ivy League schools. Would you prefer that kind of life?
As for your dad, I have no idea whether he was intellectually inclined let alone what kind of a bump would have led him to lead an academic or professional life. As for you and the scores of white immigrants who came to the US and succeeded after a generation or 2, well, perhaps that can give you a window into how easy it is for whites to assimilate and what the barriers of skin colour are, or how insidious the pathology of race relations truly are. It can't just be looked at through your lens of "how I personally should have gotten more help" or my lens of "I'm so glad I did, without it I might be dead." It needs more study and is getting just that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33421116) |
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Date: May 29th, 2017 2:55 PM Author: Very tactful area
isn't the issue here that blacks are intimidated by the courtroom? don't you think plenty of other people are intimidated by it, but aren't going around asking for and receiving special treatment? i agree that law school is the training period, but you're suggesting that rather than hold them to the same speaking standard as everyone else, we should evaluate them more on their written product, even though when they get out of school they're going to be competing on their verbal presentation in the courtroom, and indeed be evaluated as a professional every day in every verbal interaction they have. does your plan ever circle back around and teach these kids how to talk like a lawyer on their feet? lowering the bar in their education is a disservice because no one is going to lower it in the real world.
i didn't get help due to my lot in life, i shouldn't have, and neither should anyone else. it's not societies role to lift up average people past their limitations. extraordinary people will find their way out as long as their are no structural, legal restrictions in place. if you're being held back by an idea in your head, that's a personal problem.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33421204) |
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Date: May 29th, 2017 3:13 PM Author: naked office roast beef
No, that's not what I said. I said that these judges were not treating the non-white team with the same tone of voice and that their tone was less collegial and more intimidating when addressing the non-white team, that this generally has an impact on performance to the detriment of the non-white team, that this sort of treatment is generally exacerbated by privileged whites running around touting their genetic superiority theories, and that it's a shame that this primarily white audience of students needed to see the beat-down. I was exaggerating a bit, it was a very subtle dynamic. But it did give them (and would have given you) a chance to pat themselves on the back for being white and smarter. I thought I would address that tendency.
But in no way did I say black lawyers should get to argue cases in court if they didn't have to skills to do so.
I also pointed out how these skills aren't necessary for 80% of practice areas, yet your entire post above suggests that you need these skills to be a great lawyer. You don't. I question why modern law schools place such an emphasis on oral advocacy for this reason, these should be electives.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33421397) |
Date: May 28th, 2017 10:18 PM Author: adventurous insane death wish halford
lol
tell us your embarrassing lsat score fgt
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33417704) |
Date: May 29th, 2017 7:12 AM Author: Sexy glittery location
Oral arguments are flame precisely because of shit like this. It becomes a gotcha game of who says what and how and what the "truth" of anything is actually becomes secondary. This shit right here is why Clarence Thomas is right never to engage is that retarded 18th century BS. Everything should be decided on the papers and this relic of a bygone era needs to die.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3628923&forum_id=2#33419263)
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