Date: March 30th, 2021 9:17 AM Author: concupiscible apoplectic stage
when i got out of school back in 2006, i got stuck in shitlaw (insurance defense) for a few months in DC. i worked at a total shithouse that paid us as contractors per hour billed. i worked with two GULC grads. and this was well before ITE, when the market was fairly hot. GULC should have been knocked out of the T14 years ago.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:15 AM Author: Floppy Brindle Whorehouse
The H bomb isn't what it used to be
But honestly, H grads are getting pickier about jobs which is hurting their recruiter score (students collect offers and don't accept) and % employed at graduation/3 months after.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:12 AM Author: Deranged Laughsome Station Dingle Berry
We don't care any more because we're all olds. The ranking of our schools sort of mattered when we were first year biglaw fags, nobody at are chill 9-5 200K job cares.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:21 AM Author: propecia mathematica (formerly chuck's)
do you think wustl will crack the t14 at least once before 2030? seems like georgetown is in decline and all the schools 15-20 are just playing musical chairs now
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:55 AM Author: aromatic drunken tanning salon
Not an expert on what exactly determines these rankings, but they will probably burn money trying to make it happen, for a few of the following reasons. Also, I'm not a 3L anymore; these are just my experiences.
1. People from Saint Louis love their city unironically, in a way that you can't really understand if you are from one of the coasts. WUSTL is the best university for 300 miles around, and has a Harvard level status there, except that common St. Louisers don't hate WashU. They also want to restore the city to its past cultural level. The 3rd Olympics were held in Saint Louis, and the track and field stuff happened on WashU's campus.
2. Desire to get the law school up to the level of the other grad/professional programs. WUSTL Med is a top 5 school. Same with the design school and the social work school.
3. They have a shit ton of money. WashU's endowment is something like ~8B. Georgetown's is ~1B and change. They have and will throw(n) heavy scholarships to people to get the GPA/LSAT numbers where they think they need to be.
Date: March 30th, 2021 2:00 AM Author: Pale location
That's interesting; I knew they were monied, but I've always thought of the school as having virtually no institutional identity or culture; an Orlando of Academia, if you will.
Also, it's kind of like how ppl used to say Hillary Clinton's biggest asset was how she was a "shrewd, calculating politician": if everyone *knows* wustl is a rankings-gaming stat-whore school, it isn't working.
Date: March 30th, 2021 9:05 AM Author: bonkers chad
They might. Their peer rep scores have gone way up -- I assume they buy a lot of professor talent in addition to throwing money at high LSAT and/or GPA students.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:28 AM Author: Pale location
Goddamn GULC sucks. As does Michigan. I'd go to / hire vanderbilt over either.
CLS and Chi tied, with NYU a step down tied with UPenn, seems right to me and is always how I've subjectively ranked them (I put Duke with Penn and NYU, too, but whatever). NYU sucks and REEKS of that second-choice smell (vis-a-vis CLS), and Penn always struck me as stronger than, particularly, UVA and Mich.
Cornell should be higher but it being #13 is like a tradition now.
University of Florida ("Levin", lol jfc) is apparently going to be a top-20 school soon? Can't stop thinking of that place (the U. as a whole, not necessarily the LS, about which I know nothing) as a joke. Seeing it above UNC-Chapel Hill and William & mary and notre dame and shit doesn't pass the smell test for me. Of course, noted educational powerhouse Alabama is like 3 ranks down.
My worry about H isn't that it'll ever be thought of badly, but when you've got 700 kids/class to place, you really don't want to start being thought of by even a portion of BL firms as "NYU but with prestige".
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:32 AM Author: Pale location
Emory's a weird one in that georgia natives love that place, but it's a half-step behind tulane in being a southern school that's been coopted almost entirely by northeastern jews -- to no apparent benefit to the schools academic reputation. Although I'm sure they pay full freight.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:36 AM Author: Pale location
The nothereasterners I knew from LS liked duke and UNC, although I admit you didn't hear about emory from them. My perception on vandy was warped by the fact that I was close friends with a vandy kid in LS.
Date: March 30th, 2021 9:52 PM Author: mildly autistic transparent school
This is false.
Everyone in Georgia knows that if you want to attend a school that will get you placed OUTSIDE of the South, then you attend Emory.
If you want to maintain a great reputation and network in the South, then you attend UGA (or even Georgia State). Both are affordable and Boomers trip over themselves when you tell them, "HOW 'BOUT DEM DAWGS!?"
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:10 AM Author: vivacious sneaky criminal death wish
you think it’s funny now, wait until it goes from second best law school in georgia to second best law school in atlanta after GSU passes it in 5-10 yrs
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:36 AM Author: propecia mathematica (formerly chuck's)
i'm from the midwest and knew tons of people who applied/went to Duke/Vandy/UNC/Emory. never heard of "William and Mary" until i was researching law schools though
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:44 AM Author: Pale location
It had a good rep at my sourthern prep school and got a couple dudes I considered to be smart well-rounded multi-sport athletes. The UG is apparently wildly competitive for out-of-state students. I think it's technically public, and is the 2d oldest college in america.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:33 PM Author: Spruce swashbuckling pervert
I also grew up in VA and applied to both schools. Yes, William and Larry is a "good" school, but it's weirdo Tribe flame to suggest that it is a peer school with UVA.
Date: March 30th, 2021 11:17 AM Author: bonkers chad
It's considered kind of nerd school, but admission is similarly competitive to UVA, and tougher than the other VA state schools. A lot of people would rather go somewhere more fun if they don't get UVA though.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:39 PM Author: Spruce swashbuckling pervert
What is not being conveyed through any of this discussion is how hard William and Larry sucks. Yes, in state it's perceived to be only a little worse than UVA academically, and maybe in some idiosyncratic nerdy way it's as good. but the place really sucks.
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:43 AM Author: Turquoise Masturbator Weed Whacker
Youre entitled to you opinion, but I’m not sure it’s borne out by the facts on the ground. While I wouldn’t group NYU with CC, P and D field weaker classes
Look at their 25%s; incredibly TTT
25% of P’s class scored 163 or lower; by contrast NYU’s 25% is 167
Not sure how (based on the strength of the class) they’re even comparable tbh
Date: March 30th, 2021 1:56 AM Author: Pale location
Alright you've persuaded me with data. But mostly that penn (and I assume the other MVPBN?... I remember Boalt was famously hippy-dippy about LSAT scores) sucks.
A 163 is *really* fucking shitty, and getting to the level where a class where a quarter of them got that or worse is going to reliably be a stupider class with dumber comments and analysis than what's tolerable.
Date: March 30th, 2021 2:01 AM Author: Pale location
To Boalt's credit, every grad I've ever personally met has been down-to-earth, politically normal, and bright. Of course bear in mind I'm meeting the ones you run into in the commercial lit world.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:01 AM Author: Turquoise Masturbator Weed Whacker
V10 and judges seem to think so and that's all that really matters
Truth be told, if NYU had as tiny of a class as Chicago they'd probably have more impressive stats; even with double the class size they have the same LSAT stats
If anything it should be: Y SH CC N MVP; but if you think Penn with its smaller class and pink little 25% 163 LSAT is comparable to NYU I'd tend to disagree
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:12 AM Author: elite garrison
we get it; you went to a state school for ug and strived your balls off to get a 169 on the lsat and pay 300k for an nyu law degree. congrats on your "t6" "prestige" and "career" at kirkland.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:50 AM Author: maize vibrant crackhouse
Correct. But that's equally true of Penn. As I've said in other threads for purposes of filling the ranks of the V10 it's more like
HS
CCNP
But no one outside of an NYU grad thinks that their school is in the same tier as far as prestige / access / clerking / reputation as CC. And I'd argue if you look to the V5 you'll more clearly see the CC vs. N distinction anyway.
Date: March 30th, 2021 11:06 AM Author: Turquoise Masturbator Weed Whacker
"equally true of Penn"; I'm just not seeing it; especially considering their 250 person class size, if what you're saying is true then they'd have better representation.
Wrt UChi, I'll concede that their clerking access is better, but I'd reckon that's a result of the school taking an active interest in pushing their students in that career direction. I won't argue about CLS bc they're clearly better represented in V10 (for clerking I'm not sure).
Again, based on the facts (outcomes, LSAT, class size), it's not clear to me where all this UChi and Penn fetishizing comes from and if it's even warranted. V10 breakdown below.
Date: March 30th, 2021 11:29 AM Author: maize vibrant crackhouse
Listen, everyone is proud of your NYU degree, you have nothing to be ashamed about. If you'd like to actually do this analysis start by normalizing for class size and provide composite breakdowns by geography.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:11 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle cruise ship
Chicago's enrollment is a joke. If NYU (or Columbia) cut down to a tiny, pink 200 person 1L class they would have 25/75 medians in the mid 170s. Chicago being so tiny is also a clear impediment in terms of alumni network and allows Chicago to overperform on a percentage basis in clerkship placement (along with all the boomer judges being familiar with Chi as a high end law school brand and thinking NYU sounds like the law school version of Zima). The value of a Chicago degree decreases after 2L OCI relative to NYU and Columbia and other than in Chicago you rarely see Chicago grads out in the wild as like a joe schmoe Legal Director at a big company making a chill 300k, but you see assloads of NYU and Columbia grads doing this. And it's a lulzy troll to even mention Penn in this conversation unless you're specifically talking about getting hired at Morgan Lewis in Philly.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:24 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle cruise ship
CR. A good one, but sort of like Stone in that they do what they do and did it a decade before anyone else did, and they made their rep by pushing to the edge and if you don't like it you can go fuck yourself.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:17 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle cruise ship
My sense has been that bottom half at UCLA has consistently placed better than bottom half at UT. I don't have any data to back that up, but the knock on UCLA relative to UT seemed to be that tuition (especially in state) was laughably higher at UCLA (like 50k v 25k or something like that). UT has always seemed like an awesome value if you have law review/MCL level grades, but very have v. have not while T6 you had to pretty much puke on a series of interviewers during 2L OCI to not walk away with a v100 biglaw offer.
Date: March 30th, 2021 10:22 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle cruise ship
Seems so weird that GULC has never bothered to reduce its class size and get rid of the PT backdoor. I feel like they'd be pushing to the top of the MVBP stack if they admitted a 250-300 person 1L class like most of the rest of these schools do.
Date: March 31st, 2021 11:51 PM Author: Pale location
They're an actually poor school; I'm not sure their endowment is over a bill yet. They've got a good (i.e., monetizable) location and in the last 25 years or so some mild prestige. They've got to whore that shit out like Hillary Clinton on the speaking circuit just to make ends meet.
Date: March 30th, 2021 11:03 AM Author: Racy tattoo university
They got absolutely buttfucked by the huge in state requirement and a small state’s pool of talent to draw from. Does anyone remember the “wolverine scholar” attempt to address this? Basically if you were a MI resident (maybe you had to be a UM UG, I don’t remember) mouth breathing retard who had a 4.0 in identity politics studies, you could get into UM but only if you did NOT take the LSAT so they didn’t have to report your would-be 158 to the board. They got laughed out of town and quickly dropped the program, but the stench remains. Honestly, I’d advise a prospective student to go anywhere else in the T14 other than GULC.
Date: March 30th, 2021 11:16 AM Author: bonkers chad
I think a lot of the southern state schools like Alabama benefit from admitting high GPA undergrads from their TTT school and not requiring the LSAT and giving them early auto admission. Alabama has something like a 3.9 median GPA by doing this.
Date: March 30th, 2021 3:39 PM Author: black submissive pit stain
In one of his more bizarre routines, Savage contrasted the teams of lawyers the Bush and Gore campaigns sent to Florida to contest the 2000 election results. The Gore lawyers, according to Savage, were "NYU red diaper doper babies," but also "curly-haired boys from NYU," "little guys from NYU with big glasses" (12/10/02; 12/24/02).
Savage made it clear these exotic creatures were no match for the Bush lawyers (12/10/02):
"But then, as Republicans called out the high-powered WASPy lawyers . . . guys I hadn't seen for years, guys that gave me a chill. . . . The guys they got looked like they could pose for dollar bills. You know, fifties, hundreds . . . the WASP establishment! And I love these guys. I mean, they built a great country; it's a great nation. I don't like little guys from NYU with big glasses. I don't want them on my fifty-dollar bill. You know what I'm saying?"
--
We don't want little guys with big glasses from NYU; we want Mainline WASPs from UPenn!
On a more serious note, I could see this happening; NYU will predictably respond by going on a fundraising-spree anticipating the same
However, I don't think NYU will debase itself by changing its name to the NYU Carey Law School anytime soon
Unlike its UG, NYU grad schools have cachet, and I don't anticipate the Law School rolling over like a dog and letting Penn State steamroll it, regardless of how large Penn's war chest is
I think it's more likely that the administration, which is all too cognizant of the fact that it's lost steam the last few years, will pull some NYU Langone fuckery
For reference, in the span of 3 years, NYU Medical School went from #15-#20 to #2
Date: March 30th, 2021 9:26 PM Author: sienna lay party of the first part
nyu will "debase" itself asap. other schools in other depts have already done so and its common, plus what actual cachet does "NYU" have compared to even UPenn? absolutely zero, youd have to be a law teen or autist to even know about nyu law as a powerhouse of international and public interest scholarship filled with CENTERS within CENTERS achieving practical and academic excellence.
UPenn suffers two problems, one intangible and the other non. The first is that its in philly and no one wants to live there. CAREY can do nothing to remediate this except hope that NYC futher declines into a rancid ttt thus mitigating the problems of philly to an average applicant.
second, it has no identity or character except to be a biglaw mill. this can be exploited in two ways a) come to us and youll get BIGLAW and b) to create some sort of an identity. the identity can be easy to create considering it it flush with cash like an nyu grad cannot believe. just create the supreme national center for racial justice and the preeminent obgynglbt clinic and transition center and you should have enough to draw people away from nyu, which has no natural claim to the 6th position.
Date: April 1st, 2021 2:47 AM Author: Pale location
Good poast. I mean it's counteracted a little bit by the fact that Penn's cachet is itself pretty shitty -- pretty crazy that everyone just accepts that NYU is way less prestigious than the school literally >80% of the country confuses with sandusky's school -- but still good points.
i appreciate the thought but i don't think it should factor in the same way as LSAT/GPA/employment. if your cost of attendance is low because your family is helping you/you got a scholarship, it doesn't make sense that your school is "worse" because your peers are poor/taking out loans.