\
  The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
BackRefresh Options Favorite

Wife & I Cannot Afford to Buy a House

This is a big problem. We both work. We don't have kids. Yet...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
move away from the city centre and use trains/boats to commu...
hairraiser indigo station windowlicker
  04/25/14
Hopefully u will not be commute cost pwn3d but Titcr
Tantric Water Buffalo
  04/26/14
The government backs the vast majority of home loans these d...
arousing area
  04/25/14
Fair point, but before that happens, the Government will hav...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
You obv live in a coastal city. Move to Houston, Atlanta J...
passionate stage alpha
  04/25/14
right: http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm ...
comical organic girlfriend mother
  04/25/14
I live in one of these cities. Single family homes in a reas...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
Check out fannie mae and their program.
Opaque elastic band
  04/25/14
DEM PROGRAMZ
Sepia degenerate
  04/26/14
The problem is likely your definition of reasonable.
Startled mustard brunch
  04/25/14
You can't afford a house in Jax? Make more money you fucking...
Boyish school cafeteria
  04/25/14
Houston and Atlanta are going nuts right now. The inventory ...
galvanic green legend
  04/25/14
This seems odd. In the current low interest rate environmen...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
LOL.
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
I live in a major eastern city, and my mortgage payment is s...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
Our rent is $1,675/month for a 4-2 that is a painful commute...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
Wait it out. Prices are likely to go down than up.
Jet-lagged hall headpube
  04/25/14
Fuck 20% down. Do that for your second home. Depending on yo...
Exhilarant Abusive Principal's Office Milk
  04/25/14
Don't be a whiny bitch. If you think that house price is go...
mind-boggling crackhouse love of her life
  04/25/14
"Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willin...
haunting public bath
  04/26/14
...
hateful karate piazza
  04/26/14
just do negative equity when rates go up and house values go...
Jet-lagged hall headpube
  04/25/14
Dude, you still need the down payment. If the OP is only abl...
Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national
  04/25/14
FHA is 3.5% down. You can also find 90% LTV conventional lo...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
I think you can get 5% down on conventional if your credit i...
Opaque elastic band
  04/25/14
That was not my experience with the houses I have bought...
Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national
  04/25/14
Probably true I haven't checked in a while. I mean this guy...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
I am not familiar with FHA. Seems like a bad idea to buy ...
Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national
  04/25/14
As long as he has stable income it would be dumb not to buy ...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
Actually, I couldn't afford a house a couple of years ago. I...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
You are clueless. Do you know what PMI is? If you're doing F...
Jet-lagged hall headpube
  04/25/14
No. The FHA loans provides subsidized mortgage insurance. ...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
PMI is approx 60 a month per 100K
marvelous becky school
  04/25/14
Lmao u fucking idiot
marvelous becky school
  04/25/14
LOL "uncertainty that comes with renting"
marvelous becky school
  04/25/14
YOU MADE BAD LIFE CHOICES AND DESERVE TO DIE.
Impertinent Dull Theater Stage Multi-billionaire
  04/25/14
Harsh, but fair.
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
...
Jobs
  12/16/25
Move to real America and this won't be a problem. But, I bet...
Useless Box Office
  04/25/14
Titcr
marvelous becky school
  04/25/14
It's not about the culture jackass. There are no jobs in rea...
galvanic green legend
  04/25/14
If you have a mortgage, it is basically just as uncertain to...
Multi-colored chartreuse athletic conference
  04/25/14
Well, with a fixed rate you have locked in monthly payment. ...
misanthropic titillating parlor double fault
  04/25/14
bro needs to move to a place with rent control
Multi-colored chartreuse athletic conference
  04/25/14
What do I need to do to start the pre-approval process for a...
internet-worthy feces
  04/25/14
pre approval is flame. just go to a mortgage broker and have...
hairraiser indigo station windowlicker
  04/25/14
LOL...no. That's prequalification. Pre-approval is general...
Opaque elastic band
  04/26/14
say what ? i never did any of that and still sent multiple o...
hairraiser indigo station windowlicker
  04/26/14
Yeah...but then you're sending contingent offers based on lo...
Opaque elastic band
  04/26/14
Start off easy ... go visit two or three different new const...
Exhilarant Abusive Principal's Office Milk
  04/26/14
Minimal savings, zero family help, live in NY/SF/DC area. A...
racy bespoke theater roommate
  04/26/14
Just rent a house from an individual owner. I owned before ...
aqua messiness stage
  04/26/14
Don't buy a house. Rent and save money.
Flickering trailer park
  04/26/14
This is almost always wrong on the timescale of a human life
Bonkers orange corner gaming laptop
  04/26/14
One other thought: if you are still in your 20s or even earl...
Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national
  04/26/14
Lawyers are less likely than average to change cities given ...
Geriatric crimson new version
  04/26/14


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:32 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

This is a big problem. We both work. We don't have kids. Yet, we cannot afford to buy a house. I would like to because I'm tired of all of the uncertainty that comes with renting, but the costs are just out of control. Why is housing so fucking expensive?

Further, the more expensive home ownership gets, the less appealing it becomes overall. I'm starting to think it's a pointless exercise and I may just kill myself.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447523)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:55 PM
Author: hairraiser indigo station windowlicker

move away from the city centre and use trains/boats to commute. its very doable if you know what youre doing. i live out in the boonies but can take the train in as the rail line is close to my place.

cheap place, decent plot, good life and i can get into the city without much effort daily.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25448793)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:52 AM
Author: Tantric Water Buffalo

Hopefully u will not be commute cost pwn3d but Titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451013)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:33 PM
Author: arousing area

The government backs the vast majority of home loans these days, artificially inflating housing prices. The 30-year fixed rate mortgage wouldn't exist without government-backed mortgages. You won't have housing prices collapse until the federal government's finances collapse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447532)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:36 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

Fair point, but before that happens, the Government will have already appropriated most of my wealth and I'll have lost my jerb in the deflating economy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447555)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:35 PM
Author: passionate stage alpha

You obv live in a coastal city. Move to Houston, Atlanta Jacksonville Phoenix and you'll find a nice place.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447546)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:37 PM
Author: comical organic girlfriend mother

right:

http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm

Home Prices by Region

Last Updated: 4/7/2014

The median price in the Midwest rose to $140,900, up from $139,800 in January and it rose 8.6 percent from the one year earlier.

In the South, the median price increased to $163,400 in February, up from $159,900 the month before and up 8.3 percent from the previous year.

In the Northwest, the price fell to $237,800, down from January's $241,200. Still the median is up 1.5 percent from the year before.

Prices in the West reached $279,400, up from $272,200 in January. The median price was up 18.0 percent from February 2013.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447559)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:39 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

I live in one of these cities. Single family homes in a reasonable neighborhood are exorbitantly priced.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447568)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:47 PM
Author: Opaque elastic band

Check out fannie mae and their program.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447595)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:55 AM
Author: Sepia degenerate

DEM PROGRAMZ

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451025)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:24 PM
Author: Startled mustard brunch

The problem is likely your definition of reasonable.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447748)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:35 PM
Author: Boyish school cafeteria

You can't afford a house in Jax? Make more money you fucking poor

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447808)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 11:02 PM
Author: galvanic green legend

Houston and Atlanta are going nuts right now. The inventory is very low and prices are rising 20% year over year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25448826)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:35 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

This seems odd. In the current low interest rate environment unless you live in the bay area your mortgage won't be much more than your current rent. Plus with FHA loan you will only have to put down a very small amount.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447547)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:39 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

LOL.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447570)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:42 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

I live in a major eastern city, and my mortgage payment is significantly less than my rent was before I bought. I put down 20%, but the FHA loan isn't a bad option at all for a first time buyer. If the economy goes to shit you can always just walk away.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447576)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:51 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

Our rent is $1,675/month for a 4-2 that is a painful commute and in a shitty neighborhood. Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willing to buy in would be $550-650k. We don't have the $110k-$135k in cash for that 20% down payment at the moment, and it would probably take us almost 3 years to accumulate that given our retirement contributions. By that time, the prices will probably be $800k+. More significantly, the mortgage would consume so much more of our monthly take home it just wouldn't be worth it. I think we need to downsize and find cheap rentals and say fuck buying although my wife really wants a house. She'll probably force me to buy. Fuck my ass.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447617)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:52 PM
Author: Jet-lagged hall headpube

Wait it out. Prices are likely to go down than up.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447620)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:57 PM
Author: Exhilarant Abusive Principal's Office Milk

Fuck 20% down. Do that for your second home. Depending on your credit, you could do 10% down with another 10% as a second mortgage with payments less than mortgage insurance. Or, go FHA. 3% down or whatever and pay the MI FOR 5 years.

To sum: stop whining like a little bitch. You can buy a house if you want to so long as your credit score is like 630 or higher.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447638)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:17 PM
Author: mind-boggling crackhouse love of her life

Don't be a whiny bitch. If you think that house price is going to increase $250k in 3yrs then buy it now with as little down as you want.

If you believe the naysayers and think it's going to drop then you don't want to buy now even if you could pay cash



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447730)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:50 AM
Author: haunting public bath

"Entry level house in a neighborhood we would be willing to buy in would be $550-600K."

There's your fucking problem hoss. Adjust your expectations. There are PLENTY of nice places in ATL/Houston for half as much.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451010)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:02 PM
Author: hateful karate piazza



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451319)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:40 PM
Author: Jet-lagged hall headpube

just do negative equity when rates go up and house values go down

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447571)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:44 PM
Author: Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national

Dude, you still need the down payment. If the OP is only able to save $10k a year and needs $60k-$80k for the down payment on the sort of house he wants, he has a bit of a wait.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447580)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:45 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

FHA is 3.5% down. You can also find 90% LTV conventional loans.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447587)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:48 PM
Author: Opaque elastic band

I think you can get 5% down on conventional if your credit is even average.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447602)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national

That was not my experience with the houses I have bought...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447614)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:54 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

Probably true I haven't checked in a while. I mean this guy missed the bottom, but I think it is still a reasonable time to buy. The identical condo in my unit to the one I bought in 2010 just sold for $80k ore than my purchase price. Best ROI I have ever gotten. Obviously prices could drop tomorrow, but I doubt it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447625)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national

I am not familiar with FHA.

Seems like a bad idea to buy a house if you can't save up even a 10% down payment.

Can OP raise $40k?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447607)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:55 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

As long as he has stable income it would be dumb not to buy now and lock in the current low rates. He is actually a few years late already.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447632)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:58 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

Actually, I couldn't afford a house a couple of years ago. I got married and dramatically improved my financial outcome. I didn't 'miss' anything. I just wasn't born a boomer or come from the womb of a rich-as-fuck boomer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447642)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:50 PM
Author: Jet-lagged hall headpube

You are clueless. Do you know what PMI is? If you're doing FHA in the first place and paying the bare minimum down payment, PMI alone will likely make your monthly cost prohibitively esspensive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447610)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:54 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

No. The FHA loans provides subsidized mortgage insurance. It isn't very expensive at all.

For a 300k mortgage the FHA insurance is like 150 a month.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447628)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:33 PM
Author: marvelous becky school

PMI is approx 60 a month per 100K

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447791)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:46 PM
Author: marvelous becky school

Lmao u fucking idiot

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447591)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:43 PM
Author: marvelous becky school

LOL "uncertainty that comes with renting"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447578)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:45 PM
Author: Impertinent Dull Theater Stage Multi-billionaire

YOU MADE BAD LIFE CHOICES AND DESERVE TO DIE.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447588)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:52 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

Harsh, but fair.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447619)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 3:42 PM
Author: Jobs



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#49514474)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 7:55 PM
Author: Useless Box Office

Move to real America and this won't be a problem. But, I bet you would miss all the culture, right faggot?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447630)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:33 PM
Author: marvelous becky school

Titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447794)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 11:06 PM
Author: galvanic green legend

It's not about the culture jackass. There are no jobs in real America. All the white collar jobs are in the urban core of big cities. How the fuck are you going to commute to your jerb in downtown Atlanta living in fucking Augusta?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25448843)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:05 PM
Author: Multi-colored chartreuse athletic conference

If you have a mortgage, it is basically just as uncertain to own (because you really are just a renter with upside).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447676)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:07 PM
Author: misanthropic titillating parlor double fault

Well, with a fixed rate you have locked in monthly payment. Its basically a very long term lease with an upside.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447684)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 8:08 PM
Author: Multi-colored chartreuse athletic conference

bro needs to move to a place with rent control

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25447687)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:28 PM
Author: internet-worthy feces

What do I need to do to start the pre-approval process for a mortgage or is that just flame?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25448636)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 25th, 2014 10:56 PM
Author: hairraiser indigo station windowlicker

pre approval is flame. just go to a mortgage broker and have him to an assessment. then divide by two and away you go.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25448796)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 10:19 AM
Author: Opaque elastic band

LOL...no. That's prequalification. Pre-approval is generally needed before you can make offers and involves sending in shit like W2s, pay stubs, bank statements, and them looking over assets and debt, etc.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450742)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:08 AM
Author: hairraiser indigo station windowlicker

say what ? i never did any of that and still sent multiple offers etc and bought the house over the phone.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450897)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: Opaque elastic band

Yeah...but then you're sending contingent offers based on loan approval. You're in a better bargaining position if you have the pre-approval and you can close quicker and sellers like that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450900)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 10:25 AM
Author: Exhilarant Abusive Principal's Office Milk

Start off easy ... go visit two or three different new construction developments in your area. Homes, townhouses, whatever. Talk to the realtor/sales people for the development. You'll get your feet wet that way as well as start to learn what features you value, as well as understanding pricing in your area. Then, if you decide to want to buy an existing home, research and talk to buyers agents in your area. Talk with a few and choose the one you connect best with. Buyers agents can discuss your financing options, and they often times have folks that they know they can recommend. You don't want to go through this alone.

SHORT ANSWER - If buying new construction, you'll go with the financing tied with the building. If buying a resale, get a buyer's realtor first.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450750)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: racy bespoke theater roommate

Minimal savings, zero family help, live in NY/SF/DC area. Am I renting 4 lyfe?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450901)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:44 AM
Author: aqua messiness stage

Just rent a house from an individual owner. I owned before and am now a very happy renter, for a bunch of reasons:

-Maintenance is a big time suck.

-If you're renting from an individual rather than a big company they will be thrilled to have you as a tenant and are unlikely to increase your rent that much over time. They will also be likelier to give you a good deal on rent than you would get from a big company or in the home purchase market.

-You can have as much house as you need at any particular point - no need to get extra bedrooms because of future plans for extra kids.

-Plowing your down payment $ into dividend-paying stocks is way easier and since stocks appreciate more over the long haul than real estate foregoing the RE tax/financing advantages isn't that big a deal. Plus if you're really counting on a house to fund a comfortable retirement you should probably not be exposing yourself to the downside risk of the 2014 housing market.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25450994)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 11:59 AM
Author: Flickering trailer park

Don't buy a house. Rent and save money.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451035)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: Bonkers orange corner gaming laptop

This is almost always wrong on the timescale of a human life

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451049)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:15 PM
Author: Alcoholic fluffy preventive strike national

One other thought: if you are still in your 20s or even early 30s renting May still be a better plan.

Why?

Well, I am betting you are still moving around between jobs. As a result you are likely to change cities.

Remote rental of the property or selling and then buying both have transaction costs that are not insignificant.

Just something to think about.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451371)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 26th, 2014 1:38 PM
Author: Geriatric crimson new version

Lawyers are less likely than average to change cities given their licensing requirements and the nature of business development.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2552013&forum_id=2...id#25451457)