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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
Tripping excitant national stain
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
Concupiscible really tough guy
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
Concupiscible really tough guy
  05/29/25
...
Concupiscible really tough guy
  06/03/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  06/08/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/01/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/03/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/06/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/08/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/13/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/14/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  07/16/25
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  07/20/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  11/16/25
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  11/18/25
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  11/23/25
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  11/24/25
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  11/24/25
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  11/24/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  11/26/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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  11/27/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  11/28/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  12/02/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  12/04/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  12/07/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  12/08/25
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  05/26/26
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  05/28/26
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Concupiscible really tough guy
  06/03/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
exciting international law enforcement agency
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
aphrodisiac piazza feces
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
exciting international law enforcement agency
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
aphrodisiac piazza feces
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
exciting international law enforcement agency
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
azure medicated toilet seat
  07/01/25
...
Thriller fantasy-prone crackhouse
  07/13/25
...
autistic circlehead
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
fear-inspiring vivacious scourge upon the earth
  05/29/25
cq
Chocolate magical party of the first part famous landscape painting
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
Purple rebellious gunner chad
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
azure medicated toilet seat
  07/02/25
...
beady-eyed principal's office
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
overrated vibrant idea he suggested nowag
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Bateful dog poop
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
Fiercely-loyal Menage Cumskin
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
mauve indian lodge jew
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
swashbuckling startling space
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
mauve indian lodge jew
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
Fiercely-loyal Menage Cumskin
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
Amber Electric Furnace Gaming Laptop
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
Amber Electric Furnace Gaming Laptop
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: Tripping excitant national stain

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: Concupiscible really tough guy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: exciting international law enforcement agency

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: aphrodisiac piazza feces

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: exciting international law enforcement agency

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: aphrodisiac piazza feces

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48969954)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: exciting international law enforcement agency

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48971066)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: azure medicated toilet seat

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065184)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: Thriller fantasy-prone crackhouse



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098592)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: autistic circlehead



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49098608)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: fear-inspiring vivacious scourge upon the earth

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48970037)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: Chocolate magical party of the first part famous landscape painting

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48970041)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: Purple rebellious gunner chad

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48985033)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: azure medicated toilet seat

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065206)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: beady-eyed principal's office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: overrated vibrant idea he suggested nowag

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Bateful dog poop

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: Fiercely-loyal Menage Cumskin

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: mauve indian lodge jew

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: swashbuckling startling space

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: mauve indian lodge jew

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: Fiercely-loyal Menage Cumskin

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Amber Electric Furnace Gaming Laptop

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Amber Electric Furnace Gaming Laptop

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2...id#49838410)