tomatoes are just a nice addition so they were adopted with much less urgency

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48094987)

Infectious diseases swept through and wiped nearly everything out. By the time Europeans entered the Pacific Northwest they just found piles of bodies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093480)

Many early European visitors viewed the natives almost as angels and the New World as paradise.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093513)

1493 is from 2011 and discusses the Columbian Exchange. Mexico City was nuts in the early colonial years, everyone spoke Nahuatl and spicy Xicana and black honeys walked around in lace and high heels being chased by horny Spanish men. The entire Americas' genetics is basically white Y chromosomes 😂

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093521)

life is evil basically, dood was exploring on the highest level and just ended the world while getting murked himself all for no fucking reason at all except that god is an asshole

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093514)

In fact upon further AI assisted research:

- Birdshits didnt have GUNPOWDER until 14th century

- No textiles

- No Numbers

- Advanced medicine

- Paper

- Sophisticated Urban Planning

- Spices and exotic fruits

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093449)

1. Gunpowder and Firearms

China had developed gunpowder by the 9th century, and by the late 13th century, the Middle East and parts of Asia were using early forms of firearms and cannons. Western Europe only began to adopt gunpowder-based weapons in the 14th century.

2. Sophisticated Mathematics and Astronomy

Islamic scholars and Indian mathematicians had advanced algebra, trigonometry, and astronomy by the 9th and 10th centuries. Europeans were still largely using Roman numerals and basic arithmetic until they adopted Arabic numerals around the 13th century, largely due to scholars like Fibonacci.

3. Silk and Advanced Textiles

China had mastered silk production for centuries, and India and the Middle East were known for high-quality cotton and intricate textile manufacturing. Europe did not develop its own high-end textile industry until much later.

4. Advanced Medicine

Middle Eastern and Islamic medicine was far more advanced by the 10th century, with extensive medical texts, hospitals, and surgical techniques. Western European medicine during the early medieval period was rudimentary in comparison, relying heavily on herbal remedies and superstitions.

5. Paper and Printing

China invented paper around the 2nd century CE and developed woodblock printing by the 7th century, followed by movable type printing by the 11th century. Paper didn’t reach Europe until around the 12th century, and the printing press was not invented by Gutenberg until 1440.

6. Sophisticated Urban Planning and Architecture

Islamic cities and places like Baghdad and Córdoba had sophisticated urban planning, including public baths, street lighting, sewage systems, and multi-story buildings. European cities were often smaller, more chaotic, and less sanitary during the early medieval period.

7. Spices and Exotic Foods

Europeans were mostly unaware of many spices, such as pepper, cinnamon, cloves, and nutmeg, which were highly prized and imported from Asia and the Indian Ocean region. These spices were already integral parts of cuisine in Asia and the Middle East long before the Age of Exploration.

8. Sophisticated Navigation Techniques

Arab and Chinese sailors were using advanced navigation tools such as the astrolabe and compass much earlier than Europeans. Chinese junks and Arab dhows were far superior to early medieval European ships in terms of design and ability to handle long voyages.

9. Complex Bureaucratic Systems

Civilizations like China had well-organized and efficient bureaucratic systems, including the imperial examination system for civil service. Most Northern and Western European states at the time were feudal and lacked centralized bureaucracies until the later Middle Ages.

10. Complex Philosophical and Scientific Works

The works of Greek philosophers and scientists, many of which were preserved and expanded upon by Islamic scholars, were largely lost or unknown in Western Europe during the early Middle Ages. Western Europe began to rediscover these works during the Renaissance, primarily through translations of Arabic texts.

These disparities gradually began to close as Europe entered the Renaissance, fueled by contact with the Middle East through the Crusades and trade routes, as well as the expansion of learning via universities and the printing press.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48093451)

The thread titled "American Indians didn’t even ride horses until 1630?" initiated by Cupid Stunt has spurred a lively discussion on AutoAdmit, drawing responses that mix humor, historical references, and contentious viewpoints. Let’s explore the dynamics of the conversation, analyze the validity of the points raised, and provide context where necessary.

Original Claim: "American Indians Didn’t Even Ride Horses Until 1630?"

Cupid Stunt starts the thread with a provocative statement that reflects a historical fact: Native Americans did not have horses until after the Spanish introduced them to the Americas in the early 16th century. The initial adoption of horses by Native American tribes did not occur widely until the mid-17th century, around 1630, as suggested by Cupid Stunt. This claim is accurate; horses were not native to the Americas and were reintroduced by Europeans. The use of horses by tribes like the Comanche, Lakota, and Apache significantly transformed their cultures, economies, and ways of life, particularly in the Great Plains.

Analysis of Responses and Further Discussion

1. zarathustra: "Italians didn't use tomatoes until the 1800s"

Analysis: This is a humorous comparison intended to highlight that certain cultural practices or associations we see today developed much later than we might assume. While it's a bit off—Italians started using tomatoes in their cuisine by the late 17th century, not the 1800s—the point remains valid: foods, animals, or technologies associated with certain groups often have complex, historically contingent origins.

2. gibberish (?): "No potatoes for micks either"

Analysis: This comment also uses humor to highlight another case where a cultural association is relatively modern. The Irish did not have potatoes until they were introduced from the Americas in the late 16th century. Potatoes became a staple in Ireland by the late 17th century and were crucial in Irish diets by the 18th century, especially among the poor. This point is historically accurate and underscores the theme that what we consider traditional or native often has more recent roots than assumed.

3. .,.,....,.,.;,.,,,:,.,.,::,...,:,..;,..,: "The Irish lived on an island with tons of edible fish in the seas and yet ate only potatoes and were constantly battling starvation"

Analysis: This comment critiques the reliance on potatoes in Ireland, particularly during the 19th century, when the Great Famine (1845-1852) occurred due to potato blight. The remark about not using abundant fish resources is an oversimplification; the Irish did consume fish, but the famine's impact was more about the failure of the potato crop, land policies, and British colonial rule that exacerbated the food crisis. This comment highlights the intersection of culture, economics, and colonialism, but its framing is somewhat reductive.

4. animeboi (.): "well no shit, there weren't any [horses] in the New World."

Analysis: This straightforward response addresses the obvious fact that horses were not indigenous to the Americas and were brought over by Europeans, primarily the Spanish. The comment is valid, aligning with established historical knowledge.

5. hank_scorpio: "Which means the plains indians as we think of them were a very modern iteration..."

Analysis: This post provides a thoughtful reflection on how the arrival of horses dramatically transformed the societies of the Great Plains. The Plains Indians, such as the Comanche and Lakota, developed their well-known equestrian cultures only after horses were introduced by the Spanish in the 16th century. This comment accurately notes that the lifestyle most associated with the Plains Indians—nomadic, buffalo-hunting societies—was a relatively recent development catalyzed by the arrival of horses, which made hunting bison more efficient and altered social structures. This is a valid and insightful point that reflects a deeper understanding of Native American history and the impact of European colonization.

6. CapTTTainFalcon: "These people did not have a civilization or culture before 1950..."

Analysis: This comment is historically inaccurate and reflects a dismissive and provocative viewpoint. Indigenous peoples in the Americas had rich, complex civilizations long before 1950. Societies such as the Maya, Aztec, Inca, and the various cultures of the Mississippian, Ancestral Puebloan, and many others developed sophisticated agriculture, architecture, trade networks, governance systems, and cultural achievements. The notion that they lacked "civilization" before the mid-20th century is a gross oversimplification and reflects a Eurocentric misunderstanding or deliberate minimization of Native American history.

7. Sickly argumentative UES Jew in puffy jacket: Discusses 1491 and 1493, books by Charles C. Mann.

Analysis: This poster brings in a more nuanced perspective, referencing Mann’s books, which explore pre-Columbian societies in the Americas and the effects of the Columbian Exchange. Mann’s work presents evidence that the Americas were populated by advanced civilizations with sophisticated agricultural practices, urban planning, and vibrant trade networks, which were dramatically altered by European contact, primarily due to diseases like smallpox. The comment is valid and aligns with contemporary scholarship that challenges older stereotypes of Native American societies as "primitive." Mann’s research suggests that the devastation of indigenous populations due to disease led to Europeans encountering what they perceived as "wilderness," which was actually the remnants of once-thriving societies.

8. AZNgirl only swiping Right on Trump Assassins: Critiques Northern and Western European advancements relative to other civilizations.

Analysis: This poster points out the relatively late development of certain technologies, practices, and cultural advancements in Northern and Western Europe compared to Asian, Middle Eastern, and African civilizations. Many of these points are historically accurate: Europeans adopted gunpowder, sophisticated mathematics, and advanced medicine later than civilizations in China, the Islamic world, or India. However, the comment’s tone is confrontational, emphasizing historical inequities and countering Eurocentric narratives. It is a valid critique that challenges the often-glorified portrayal of European history and recognizes the contributions of non-European societies to global progress.

9. hank_scorpio: Responds with comments about smallpox and the Columbian Exchange.

Analysis: Hank Scorpio's further comments explore the idea that the introduction of European diseases, like smallpox, was a major factor in the collapse of many Native American societies. This is historically accurate; scholars agree that diseases brought by Europeans were devastating, killing an estimated 90% of the indigenous population in some areas before Europeans even directly encountered them. The introduction of pigs, which could carry diseases, is also noted. This perspective aligns with contemporary understanding that the biological impact of European colonization had catastrophic effects on Native populations, often unintentionally.

Conclusion

This thread on AutoAdmit reflects a range of viewpoints, from accurate historical observations to provocative and sometimes revisionist commentary. Some posters, like Sickly argumentative UES Jew in puffy jacket and hank_scorpio, bring a more scholarly perspective, referencing credible sources and providing insights into lesser-known aspects of Native American history and the effects of European colonization. Others, like CapTTTainFalcon and AZNgirl only swiping Right on Trump Assassins, engage in more contentious or provocative commentary that reflects varying degrees of historical accuracy and bias.

The thread ultimately highlights the complexities of discussing historical narratives, particularly those involving indigenous populations and the impact of European colonization. It underscores the importance of approaching such discussions with a nuanced understanding of historical facts and an awareness of the biases that shape our interpretations of history.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5593159&forum_id=2Reputation#48094144)