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Debevoise
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Date: February 6th, 2010 3:50 PM |
Date: February 6th, 2010 4:22 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:49 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:48 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:31 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:47 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:33 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 5:42 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:48 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:49 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:33 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 5:25 PM |
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Date: February 8th, 2010 11:42 PM
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Date: February 6th, 2010 4:32 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 6:22 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 6:31 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 6:38 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 6:51 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 6:54 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:10 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 8:18 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:36 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:22 AM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:22 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:30 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:33 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:39 PM
Oh, let's throw in Cravath too. So three total. |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:48 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:49 PM
when I hear cravath (and SullCrom, for that matter), I think "sweatshop" and "misery," not "prestige" |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:56 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:10 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:16 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:49 PM
Based on some truth I think. |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:49 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:50 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:50 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:51 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:54 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 7:52 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 8:20 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:08 AM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:41 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 8:24 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:17 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 8:59 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:20 PM They are, however, brilliant at marketing themselves as a lifestyle v10. HTH. |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:21 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:23 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:24 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:27 PM
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:24 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:27 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:29 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:32 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:25 AM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:34 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:35 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:42 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:45 PM
Gibson Dunn is good. |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:48 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:21 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:45 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:46 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:51 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:15 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:17 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:17 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:21 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:25 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:27 AM Edit: EB. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:27 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:30 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:31 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:32 AM
In other news, sometimes it's not polite to stare. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:33 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:35 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:36 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:40 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:41 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:47 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:49 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:56 AM
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:06 AM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:23 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:31 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:33 PM
ROFL. this is true at all of these places, though. they seem much more into smarts - as reflected by grades, school rank, and journal membership - than anything else. the fact that the guy told you this outright is kind of strange. did you admit to being an aspie somehow? |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:34 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:35 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:36 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:39 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:37 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:33 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:32 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:47 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:49 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:50 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:14 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:16 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:24 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:30 AM Also the being forced to leave within 5 years is something that is more acute in the v10-v50 range. So if you weren't such a prestige whore you wouldn't have to account for this as much. But, of course, we're on xo so just call me a prole or beta faggot and let's end this thread. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:33 AM
The only reason I went to law school was to improve my earning potential doing things I have a competitive advantage doing (reading dry, complicated materials and writing about them). If that's somehow evil or greedy, sorry.
"being forced to leave within 5 years is something that is more acute in the v10-v50 range."
What good alternatives are there, assuming your goal is to make a lot of money? |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:36 AM And he alternatives are non v50 firms. Of course we probably have a different definition of "a lot of money." |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:39 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:41 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:44 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:37 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:40 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:42 AM
Edit: your very sensible response to my superbowl comment makes where you work matter much less to me in terms of my respect for you. engaging in football conversation competently = respect earned. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:44 AM
no its not |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:45 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:51 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:52 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:56 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:04 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:36 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:50 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:51 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:59 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:02 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:25 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:28 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:37 AM
"your decision on which offer to accept should not be based on the very wrong assumption that there will be any real difference in exit options"
Outside of prestige/selectivity, the firms are virtually indistinguishable. They have these ridiculous personas - S&C as a sweatshop, Debevoise as a refuge for elitist nerds, Cleary as a "nice, laid back" place, etc. - but that bullshit 2L chatter shouldn't be a factor in this kind of decision. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:51 AM
honestly id just accept at the place where i had the most friends.
IMO the mto associate will not be at a disadvantage except the kind of place at which the mto associate would never want to work |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:54 AM
that actually sounds kind of smart, although another way of looking at it is that if your friends are in different places, your network's more diversified. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:52 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:53 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 12:57 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:01 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:17 AM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 11:17 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:26 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:35 PM
The partnership track at the firm I'm going to is about 6 years. That was something that greatly appealed to me. |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:36 PM |
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Date: February 6th, 2010 9:40 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:46 AM
as a former summer at a firm with a similar reputation to deb, here are my impressions:
- there is absolutely a difference in culture between deb/cleary/etc on the one hand, and cravath/s&c on the other. it's a self-perpetuating phenomenon resulting from self selection by law students. people who care more about a marginally nicer culture than a marginally better vault ranking self-select into the friendly firms, and those with the opposite preference self-select into the other firms. its no surprise that you see law review and YLS types gravitate toward the former and typical T14 corporate monkeys gravitate toward the latter.
- re responsibility for junior associates, this is a function of associate-partner leverage and quantity of work. after its recent summer classes, cravath will probably have a leverage ratio of like 7:1. good luck getting responsibility and face time with partners in that situation. cravath aside, all the top firms have plenty of litigation work to keep associates busy, and have the same type of needs w/r/t research, drafting motions, etc. i'm not too knowledgeable about deb's white collar practice, but i imagine that it attracts lots of ausa-aspiring gunners who want to work with mukasey et al, and there's probably lots of other types of work they get from their corporate clients that you can do if you're interested in getting motion practice.
- exit ops depend on two things: the firm's clients, and your own resume. obviously if you want to go in-house at a particular company, it helps if you're coming from that company's outside counsel. so if you want to go in-house to goldman, work at S&C. however, all these firms have a broad array of financial and industry clients, so if you just want to go in house somewhere, you'll have similar opportunities at all the top places. if you want to exit to a non-client company or leave law altogether, the name of your firm is only relevant as a proxy for your individual merit. since deb is as competitive/selective as s&c/cravath, it will signal basically the same thing. whether or not you end up getting the job will then depend on your individual experience and accomplishments and the quality of your interview. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:51 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:55 AM
sorry about your debevoise ding btw |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:00 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:55 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:57 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:59 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:36 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 1:59 AM
top 40% grades and a pulse at a top school will get you an offer at cravath and s&c. this is definitely not true for deb, dpw, cleary, covington, wilmer, etc. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:01 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:05 AM
But now that I think of it, I know people who had better grades who were dinged by Deb but got offers at Cravath and Cleary.
So yeah, who gives a fuck really. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:06 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:07 AM
i've personally observed a significant culture difference between the friendly firms and cravath etc. my theory is that it has to do with self-selection. you're free to disagree. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:09 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:17 AM
here's a better method to compare the student intakes at the firms. look at where the people on your school's law review have ended up working. if it's anything like my school, you'll see an even distribution among DC firms, cali firms, and wachtell/dpw/cleary/deb. cravath, skadden, s&c will be conspicuously absent. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:19 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:24 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:30 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:36 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:41 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:43 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:43 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:46 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:50 AM |
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Date: February 8th, 2010 8:15 PM |
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Date: February 8th, 2010 9:28 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:16 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:23 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:27 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:30 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:31 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:35 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:35 AM
but seriously, wtf are you talking about. as a summer associate you have tons of opportunities to shoot the shit with associates and talk to them about the firm and how they get on with biglaw life. maybe you were too edgy and cool to take advantage of this but it seemed to me a pretty obviously reasonable thing to do. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:37 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:42 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:49 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:49 AM
Hilarious how you criticized "0L opinions" meanwhile you're a FUCKING LAW STUDENTS telling practicing lawyers how it is.
Edit: You make me want to give up being a pumo, you pumo faggot. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:54 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:02 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:04 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:09 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:13 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:42 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:39 AM
I don't care what firm you chose and why, I just think you've seen about 15% of what you need to see to make the type of statements you're making. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:47 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:56 AM
Are you the only one who doesn't get the purpose of summer programs? You realize there are people at the end of the summer at Cadwalader and Cahill stoked to come back and starting working will all the cool people they met over the summer? |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:05 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:07 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:11 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:13 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:20 AM
£0$€® |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:11 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:15 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:17 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:33 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:35 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:39 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:40 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:48 AM
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:40 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:11 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:02 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:34 AM
FACT: Vault rankings are primarily driven by revenue/PPP (like schools are LSAT/GPA). Firms cannot have high revenue/PPP without being highly leveraged and then sweatshopping the shit out of its associates.
The further down the vault list you go, the more likely you are to find a firm where you can achieve some semblance of work/life balance. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:37 AM
Don't more prestigious firms also charge higher rates? |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:43 AM
rates for grunt work is pretty uniform |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:44 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:47 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:36 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:42 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:34 AM
civil work environment != lifestyle. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:20 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:23 AM
EDIT: looking back over this train-wreck of a thread, i don't think the way things went was entirely my fault, but i said some stupid, mean, fucked up shit, and i definitely should have done my part by taking a step back |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:24 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:26 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:22 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:35 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:37 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 11:43 AM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 2:08 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:10 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:12 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:18 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:16 PM
btw cravath's TTT-ness has been well documented on this board
see, e.g. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=693081&forum_id=2#8698456 |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:19 PM |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 4:25 PM
the supposed difference, which i think is probably true, is that people are more low-key and polite at those places. you might say passive aggressive instead of aggressive aggressive. |
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Date: February 7th, 2010 3:58 PM |
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Date: February 8th, 2010 8:12 PM
and, unlike what the pumo claims, i wasn't defending cravath or sullcrom, which are both sweatshops. i was saying that debevoise is also a sweatshop, while this pumo was talking about how DIFFERENT deb was and how everyone who works at csm/sullcrom is a corporate monkey and deb is full of interesting and laid-back YLS law journal editors.
take it for what you will, and i guess for this thin-skinned, debevoise-bound pumo 3L time will tell who's right |