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shitlibs every year: "did we REALLY have to bomb the Japs?"
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Date: August 6th, 2015 8:36 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale jfc stfu already (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489775) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:04 AM Author: green double fault mental disorder Truth. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490289) |
Date: August 6th, 2015 8:47 AM Author: abusive sneaky criminal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489804) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 8:49 AM Author: sick awkward codepig http://www.salon.com/2015/08/05/americas_overdue_hiroshima_reckoning_the_revisionist_history_that_haunts_the_good_war_partner/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489807) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 8:52 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale "Here we are, 70 years after the nuclear obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I’m wondering if we’ve come even one step closer to a moral reckoning with our status as the world’s only country to use atomic weapons to slaughter human beings. Will an American president ever offer a formal apology? Will our country ever regret the dropping of “Little Boy” and “Fat Man,” those two bombs that burned hotter than the sun? Will it absorb the way they instantly vaporized thousands of victims, incinerated tens of thousands more, and created unimaginably powerful shockwaves and firestorms that ravaged everything for miles beyond ground zero? Will it finally come to grips with the “black rain” that spread radiation and killed even more people — slowly and painfully — leading in the end to a death toll for the two cities conservatively estimated at more than 250,000?,"
wrote the shitlib, violently sobbing over his mac book |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:29 PM Author: Lemon incel prole "wrote the shitlib, violently sobbing over his mac book"
cr |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 8:55 AM Author: Gold Meetinghouse Bbw holy shit not flame
do any of these people read? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:08 AM Author: Startling dingle berry menage I refuse to click and refuse to believe this is not flame "Will an American president ever offer a formal apology?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490311) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 8:57 AM Author: big point fanboi I oppose the bombings on moral grounds. It's never acceptable to intentionally butcher civilians.
Here's an article that helped change my mind on the issue:
http://www.andrewcusack.com/2010/debating-hiroshima/ |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:03 AM Author: stirring elite main people It was horrible, no doubt But from the rationale point of view of the Americans, the route they chose was the most peaceful, least violent way to end a war the Japanese started. It was the most humane option we had. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489839) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:11 AM Author: big point fanboi I can dispute that on factual grounds because it's laughably untrue (just for starters we could have used the bombs in a manner that didn't deliberately obliterate civilians), but for me it's not necessary. In Christian morality one cannot justify evil acts simply because the end may allegedly be better. Murdering civilians is evil, period, and is unacceptable. People once understood that. For example, Sherman is remembered for his OMG TOTAL WAR tactics, but he explicitly prohibited any action that harmed civilians or their basic subsistence; very few people were actually killed by the March to the Sea. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489856) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:27 AM Author: nubile parlour "Murdering civilians is evil, period, and is unacceptable. " why? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:30 AM Author: big point fanboi Because they are innocents. It is wrong to deliberately, willfully kill innocent non-combatants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489911) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:44 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale does that mean it's OKAY to kill conscripted troops who want nothing to do with war? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489949) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:33 AM Author: big point fanboi Sure, as long as the war is still just and they are bearing arms. Similarly, it'd be acceptable to kill a woman who is running at U.S. troops with a grenade.
That doesn't mean you can blow up a high school because two years later a bunch of the people in it could be conscripted. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:53 AM Author: Razzle international law enforcement agency A regular civilian doesn't ever deserve to die, but a civilian forced by the threat of death to fight deserves to die. Ok. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490236) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:01 AM Author: big point fanboi It's not about "deserving" to die. By and large almost nobody outright deserves to die in a war. But there is such a thing as a just war, and unfortunately it's going to happen that innocent people are killed as collateral damage even in just wars. But it's our responsibility to minimize those deaths and avoid them whenever possible, not actively seek them out as some sort of morbid min-max exercise.
Come on, stop using absurdly childish arguments. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:33 AM Author: Poppy Judgmental University (guy who doesn't min max RPGs) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490453) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:33 PM Author: Lemon incel prole There's no such thing as a "just war".
All wars are fucking bullshit by their very nature:
Human killing Human
There is no logic behind it, but it is the most basic human institution there is.
All Wars are fucked up. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:20 PM Author: Razzle international law enforcement agency Well, you need to actually be able to address absurdly childish arguments before you can move up to more difficult ones. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492415) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:00 AM Author: nubile parlour me: no it isnt u: yes it is me: no it isnt welcome 2 the rabbit hole of human rights |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:17 AM Author: Maize passionate therapy private investor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490082) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:47 AM Author: sexy elastic band (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490192) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:02 AM Author: irradiated den hissy fit Why did American troops lose their innocence by virtue of being attacked? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490019) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:34 AM Author: big point fanboi I don't recall saying we should deliberately execute our own soldiers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490129) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:44 AM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Yes you are. You're saying we should send innocent US soldiers to certain death to avoid killing innocent Japanese civilians. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490174) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:47 AM Author: yellow mad-dog skullcap that's just the nature of the assignment (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490191) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:21 PM Author: Transparent gaping that argument doesn't work when there is a draft like there was in wwii XOXOHTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491144) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:47 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor This, exactly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490195) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:49 AM Author: big point fanboi And that would be morally justified, because we would be waging a just war. Protecting one's own soldiers does not justify the wanton butchering of innocent people. If you take that approach, literally any action can be justified. I guess it's your right to think that way, but it basically means you're thinking like Hitler. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490202) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:50 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor This statement is absolutely, 100% opposite of how the world works. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490209) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:51 AM Author: big point fanboi (Hitler supporter) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490218) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:54 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor For reasons having to do with my personal preference, the correct way to wage war is to incur 100,000's+ more deaths, specifically my own countrymen = your argument. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490242) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:57 AM Author: big point fanboi No, the correct way to wage war is in a morally just manner, and not to use war as an excuse to dispense with every moral principle in existence.
And I'm not being flippant with the Hitler analogy. The Holocaust was justified on the grounds that Jews were, as a group, "enemies" of the Nazi regime and it was safer to liquidate them. If you buy into a total war mentality, you rapidly run out of grounds on which to criticize abominable acts. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:02 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor First, any Hitler analogy is bad. Second, your use of it here is just horrible. This shit is just poorly thought out. I like you because it seems like you dislike shitlibs - big ups on that - but this argument bad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490273) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:05 AM Author: big point fanboi No, a Hitler analogy is perfectly acceptable. We're literally talking about WW2, and we're literally talking about a form of warfare that was adopted BECAUSE Hitler used it. When Hitler was bombing Rotterdam it was the allied position that deliberately terror-bombing cities was an abominable war crime. Then we copied him and suddenly forgot about that. The same goes for every other WW2 tactic that went after civilians en masse. Buying into those tactics was buying into the shitlib, totalitarian worldview that people are just cogs in a machine and not ends in and of themselves, of infinite worth. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490294) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:09 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor u know "war crime" is just a made up phrase, it doesn't actually mean anything.
Sorry bro, but this is xoxo - I'm calling it. You're a fucking idiot. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:26 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Sorry, I can't buy this. What you're saying may be correct in an academic sort of way. But we have to live in the real world. WWI was the first war in which full industrialization was used to kill armies. During WWII, that industrialization was used to kill entire populations. We were fighting pure evil ... there's no other way to categorize nazi germany and imperial japan. Not saying that the allies were saints at the time; but by comparison, the atheist states of germany, ussr, and japan were quite willing to slaughter anyone population who was inconvenient to them. And all three nations rose from the mistakes of WWI.
So the allies could have stopped and tried a more enlightened war and peace, just like the armistice of November 1918. Fortunately for us now, they did not. FDR & Churchill saw the mistakes of the past and pushed to really win this war, doing whatever was necessary to end it. And we had to strength and moral fortitude to do what was indeed necessary ... not only during the war, but in the decades afterwards, keeping our troops on the ground to change germany and japan's entire culture.
It worked. No one can realistically picture either Germany or Japan starting a war today. Instead of wars breaking out every decade or two in Europe and East Asia, wars of conquest and aggression, there has largely been peace.
tl;dr You're Wilson. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:34 AM Author: big point fanboi Out of interest...on what grounds do you consider Nazi Germany "pure evil," if not their proclivity for killing large amounts of innocent people in their war effort? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490461) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:40 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Medical experimentation, for one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490495) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:42 AM Author: big point fanboi Which the U.S. also did. Next. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490520) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:43 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Now you're just trolling. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490524) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:36 PM Author: Lemon incel prole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491233) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:48 AM Author: irradiated den hissy fit waging aggressive war of racial conquest and annihilation rather than defending itself after being attacked?
Japan had already abandoned any notion of conventional warfare, subjecting GIs to what certainly would have occurred on the mainland would have also been a deeply immoral decision |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:52 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor You're wasting your breath. Modern liberals cannot grasp these concepts, this stuff is totally at odds with equalism, pacifism and white guilt that is now standard curriculum. This crap gets a B+ in UC______ 400 level classes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490582) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:02 PM Author: big point fanboi LOL, it's not "modern liberalism" to hold to basic concepts like "don't massacre innocent people in a war." These ideas are old and it was shitlibs who fought to undermine them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490656) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:24 PM Author: Transparent gaping "atheist state[] of germany"
You lost me there. There was a minister of religion in Nazi Germany, and the leadership even founded a new Protestant church. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:28 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action A church that revolved around Hitler as its God. Let's not try and claim that Hitler was acting on behalf of Christianity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491191) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:08 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Except I'm not calling for wanton butchering of innocent people. I'm calling for dropping an A-bomb on a city that had a high concentration of military facilities, military factories, and, in particular, the the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan.
Also, many of these "innocents" worked in factories that built airplanes, tanks, guns, bayonets, for soldiers that massacred tens of millions of actual innocent in SE Asia. These "innocents" supported a government that invaded other countries for its own gain, raped and massacred tens of millions of people, and preached racial superiority of the Japanese.
These "innocents" were training to fight US soldiers to the death once they landed on Japanese shores. Innocent is not something I'd assign to many of the victims of the A-bomb. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:13 PM Author: big point fanboi (guy classifying a farmer as a military target because he grows food that people can eat)
(guy who thinks children under age 5 can be trained to do much of anything)
(guy who thinks people who can't vote and live in a military dictatorship can meaningfully "support" or "oppose" their government) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:19 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action (guy who's understanding about war is entirely based on book he read on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table)
(Guy who gives Germans a pass for the Holocaust because Hitler was really mean) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:26 PM Author: Transparent gaping "(guy classifying a farmer as a military target because he grows food that people can eat) "
nigger what are you smoking, there was no farmland in hiroshima, and the surrounding area's farmland was untouched |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:30 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action I think he's trying to use that as an example of what I would consider acceptable in a total war. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491196) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:34 PM Author: Lemon incel prole How the fuck did Hitler invading Poland "protect one's own soldiers"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491224) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:31 PM Author: Lemon incel prole Hey Jackass, General Tecumseh ALPHA AS FUCK Sherman wasn't dealing with a Gov't that encouraged the civilian population to engage in TOTAL WAR.
Your average Southerner was dumb, poor, and impoverished due to the crumbling Southern War effort, they would not have put up a fight against Union forces.
The Japanese was ACTIVELY involved in training civilians to use any weapon possible to repeal an invasion by Allied forces. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:12 PM Author: vibrant pozpig range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492339) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:13 AM Author: honey-headed plaza "It was the most humane option we had"
Its sad that you actually believe this. Cant we just admit we made a horrible choice. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:15 AM Author: Mint ratface What would have been the consequences to the civilian population of a full-scale invasion? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489867) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:16 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale (jap)
why the fuck should even one more US troop die for a war that they started?
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:20 AM Author: stirring elite main people In part he is making an Ezra Klein type argument or the argument that shitlib tried against Bernie Sanders: the only moral stance for the USA would have been to treat Japanese and US lives equally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489880) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:44 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale ljl (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489951) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:07 AM Author: irradiated den hissy fit Basically right. You either think American lives have more value than other lives because they are Americans or you don't. The Pope might not support that distinction but ljl at having a nation without it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490038) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:09 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale why does it just have to be americans who think this way?
i bet 80% of asian women support the atomic bombings |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:45 AM Author: Galvanic puce newt volcanic crater Even if you do assume jap and Americans lies hold equal value:
We would have kept bombing the fuck out of them with conventional weapons for months during an invasion build up
If you think we shouldn't have bombed on civilians at all, then the japs would have fought even longer.
They had plans to turn all civilians into combatants or to mass suicide. They would have made women and children do human kamakazi attacks. After a few of your buddies get killed by some twat with a grenade, U.S. Soilders would just start shooting them.
There is no way a full scale invasion of Japan doesn't at least kill over 200k civilians. Plus we'd still bomb cities anyway.
Bombs saved lives. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:31 PM Author: Underhanded exhilarant gaming laptop I've always been somewhat swayed by the fact that they still didn't surrender after the first one.
Im not a scholar but it doesn't seem clear that the emperor was even in control by that point, and rather the military was just bullshitting him and doing what they wanted. Some believe the Japanese wanted to surrender after the first bomb, but I don't buy it.
They seemed perfectly willing to let their cities be nuked and/or firebombed completely and/or all their citizens die somehow, up until they believed they had no chance of winning without being completely destroyed and radiated in the process.
Seems reasonable to go all out and end it ASAP with the bombs. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:21 AM Author: Swollen Wild Genital Piercing Property Jesus. Eat shit you America-hating caricature of a liberal. There were no "civilians" in Imperial Japan. They were training schoolgirls on weaponry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489881) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:49 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor LIB: it would only be fair if we suffered equal casualties.
Shit like this is the reason libs cannot run a country. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:06 PM Author: Bearded Water Buffalo putting opinions in absolutes is stupid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491450) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:01 AM Author: stirring elite main people http://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS1300MET/v12/undervisningsmateriale/Fussel%20-%20thank%20god%20for%20the%20atom%20bomb.pdf
Great piece. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:04 AM Author: big point fanboi It's a justification for atrocity like all the others.
Nothing shows the triumph of shitlibbery like support for the atom bombs, because the core tenet of all shitlibbery is that a nebulous end can justify ANY means. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:06 AM Author: stirring elite main people Just as part of the argument, are 20,001 deaths (military and civilian) by conventional war less morally problematic than 20,000 deaths by atom bomb? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489843) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:15 AM Author: big point fanboi It's not the raw numbers that matter in themselves, but the moral actions involve. America was waging a just war against Japan and killing Japanese soldiers (and inevitably some civilians as collateral damage) would be acceptable in the pursuit of that just war. But that doesn't make it suddenly acceptable to exterminate Japanese civilians en masse. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489868) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:17 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale in a totalitarian fascist society everyone contributes to the war effort (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489876) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:22 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Your argument is the same regardless of the means of war. Spears, poison gas, shells, and atomic weapons. You're bringing up a distinct issue apart from whether the use of atomic weapons was appropriate at the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489885) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:29 AM Author: big point fanboi I am well aware. I also reject the mass bombing of cities, butchering every living thing in a small Vietcong-held village, etc. This debate just comes up more often with the A-bomb. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489909) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:41 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Fine. Then don't play into the shitlibs hands with this issue. They aren't capable of making that intellectual distinction. Remember, they learned what passes for critical thinking from public union-run schools and contemporary liberal arts departments at universities.
Given the facts at the time -- total war, unconditional surrender demanded to avoid the mistake of WWI, Japanese military fighting delaying action leading to increasing numbers of allied casualties, those same Japanese units not surrendering, requiring our military to literally dig them out of holes and kill them to stop the fighting -- and looking ahead to an invasion of the Japanese homeland with all of this ... was the use of the atomic bombs justified? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:52 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor Good luck with that. To libs, US victory in WWII cannot be justified. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490226) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:53 AM Author: big point fanboi The "total war, unconditional surrender" approach was in itself buying into shitlib logic. Total war is a left-wing concept that, again, treats people as cogs in a machine. It's entirely against conservative and Christian thinking to engage in total war in the first place, and this was pointed out by plenty of people at the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490235) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:56 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor I can't tell if you are a strange flame or just out of your mind. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490254) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:03 AM Author: big point fanboi There's nothing flame about pointing out that tons of conservatives were appalled by the A-bombs when they were dropped. That's absolutely, objectively true. Here's a good starter link:
http://www.andrewcusack.com/2010/debating-hiroshima/ |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:22 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Yeah, those Japs were so liberal in executing their total war strategy on China, Korea, the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc., that they were practically voting members of the Democratic party. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490805) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:13 AM Author: Racy Lodge Crotch Although not the preferred view of our choices--what if we had landed? Not only military deaths but I cannot believe civilians would not have died in larger numbers as well. We just would never hear of it. German civilians died en masse. Russian civilians died en masse (not just starvation).
If 250,001 Japanese civilians would have died with a ground invasion--were the nukes worth it? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:16 AM Author: honey-headed plaza Retroactive justification based on imaginary numbers is not justification. Truman was a war criminal. Lets just own it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489872) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:19 AM Author: stirring elite main people We had lots and lots of real numbers to look at (the kill rate so far in the Pacific), and as a moral matter we were required to make sober assessments (imaginary numbers, if you want) of what it would take to end the war. Not thinking about those numbers, real and "imagined" would have been immoral. They did think about those numbers. Thought very hard. They chose the path of least human death. I cannot sit in judgment over them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489878) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:21 AM Author: honey-headed plaza We chose the path of least American deaths. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489883) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:23 AM Author: stirring elite main people By all estimates at the time, also the least Japanese deaths. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489889) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:23 AM Author: honey-headed plaza nonsense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489890) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:27 AM Author: stirring elite main people Well, on this point we are disagreeing about an easily proved historical fact. We did lots of estimates at the time, including Japanese deaths from an invasion. Are you claiming that those studies didn't happen and have been subsequently fabricated? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489904) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:53 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma To be fair, in this point you're actually right. I don't believe that our war decisions in the Pacific took into account anticipated Japanese civilian death tolls. An intractable enemy which until now has never surrendered, preferring to kill as many of us as possible while leaving us no choice but to kill him in his hole ... and now we have to invade his home? The estimates of US casualties for went were 1,000,000+. If the bomb could stop that and finally get them to surrender, it was a simple choice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489983) |
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Date: August 7th, 2015 4:11 PM Author: Chest-beating lascivious national "An intractable enemy which until now has never surrendered, preferring to kill as many of us as possible while leaving us no choice but to kill him in his hole "
You exaggerate. Thousands of Japanese soldiers were taken prisoner. The Japanese were very averse to surrendering, but some surrenders did happen. It would be accurate to say that they rarely surrendered and often fought to the death. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:17 AM Author: stirring elite main people I think he's now swtiched to an absolute moral argument. it's a perfectly coherent argument but it seems very much besides the point to me. it would condemn all acts of war and killing as immoral. that leaves him no room to argue that there is something distinctively wrong about the atom bombs as opposed to the other ways of ending the war, all of which would have involved massive killing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489875) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:24 AM Author: big point fanboi Again, unlike whiny libs I don't view this as some numbers game. The problem is the deliberate butchery of civilians, not the number ultimately killed by one path or another.
Now this doesn't mean I'm totally ignorant of what's best in the "long run," because I believe that the approach of rejecting individual evils will have the best long-run outcome. The en masse deliberate killing of innocent civilians is a modern innovation, after all. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:00 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor "The en masse deliberate killing of innocent civilians is a modern innovation, after all." Demonstrably not true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War#Casualties_and_disease
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:04 AM Author: razzle-dazzle olive nursing home messiness mess with the bull... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489840) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:06 AM Author: hot brunch Reminder shitlibs: we had to use TWO of those motherfuckers before the nips quit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489844) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:23 AM Author: Mint ratface The japs were tough, man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489888) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:24 AM Author: honey-headed plaza The second one was merely a message to USSR that we could do it again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489892) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:24 AM Author: Mint ratface Lol ok (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489894) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:25 AM Author: Impressive Slap-happy Dilemma Wow. Which of your shitliberal arts professors told you to believe that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489899) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:09 AM Author: Iridescent medicated church building (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490045) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:55 AM Author: Crimson Curious Pit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490603) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:28 AM Author: stirring elite main people "Merely" that because the Japanese surrendered after the first one? Is that the argument? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489905) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:29 AM Author: Crawly orange round eye reading party (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490115) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:29 AM Author: Crawly orange round eye reading party Yeah that's why everyone sat around for three days after Hiroshima, just to let that shit marinate in Russia, you stupid fucking twat. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489908) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:30 AM Author: honey-headed plaza LOL ITT grandma and babykillers in deep denial (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489912) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:49 AM Author: Tripping exciting resort So, no civilians were killed or wounded at Pearl Harbor? Go fuck yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489974) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:36 AM Author: Mint ratface (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489927) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:52 AM Author: big point fanboi The Japs basically took three days to find out what even happened at Hiroshima, bro. They were just starting to get a handle on it when Nagasaki was hit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489982) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:55 AM Author: Mint ratface Japanese general: "Wait. I swear to God there was a city here five minutes ago." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489989) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:35 AM Author: big point fanboi (guy who thinks Japanese high command 500 miles away could just look up a video on YouTube) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490131) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:49 AM Author: Galvanic puce newt volcanic crater (Guy who thinks nips didn't have radios, telegraphs, and recon air craft.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490204) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:14 AM Author: big point fanboi Which they used. It still took two full days for them to even get a handle on what had happened, and by then Nagasaki was getting hit.
BTW the Hiroshima telegraph office was blown up so no they couldn't use that. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:22 AM Author: Crawly orange round eye reading party http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/09/09/national/emperor-hirohito-notified-about-hiroshima-a-bomb-half-day-after/#.VcN7XIpOKnN
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:51 AM Author: Mint ratface Pwn3d (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490570) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:06 PM Author: big point fanboi Yeah, the emperor got a report. Big whoop. Meanwhile the Japanese military leaders only got their atomic scientists to the city a day later. They confirmed it the damage was in accordance with an atomic blast on August 8. On August 9 the Cabinet met to discuss things and during that meeting the 2nd bombing was announced.
People are being dumb and acting like Japan was run by a single dictator with absolute authority when it was actually run by a feuding cabinet that had to have meetings and shit before it could make decisions. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:13 PM Author: Mint ratface And there was a coup to launched to prevent surrender after the second bomb was dropped, which should give even a low-iq moron such as yourself some insight into the mindset of the japs and what shit would have been like if we invaded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490740) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:17 PM Author: big point fanboi Yeah man the Japanese military was fucking nuts bro. It's why we were waging a just war to stop them.
That doesn't mean it's moral to deliberately kill their children. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:23 PM Author: Mint ratface Which would have occurred en masse had we invaded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490812) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:32 PM Author: big point fanboi Sure, but morally speaking it's different to kill people in direct self-defense (like if they're attacking you) or as accidental deaths while attacking enemy soldiers. It's not simply a matter of running the numbers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490857) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:34 PM Author: Jade Athletic Conference Abode There is no morality in war, which makes this entire fucking philosophical circle jerk a waste of fucking time.
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:35 PM Author: big point fanboi Of course there is morality in war. It's shitlibs who say otherwise, and then take things to their logical conclusion by making everything a war, and therefore eliminating all conventional morality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490879) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:37 PM Author: Jade Athletic Conference Abode No, it's limp-wristed faggots who shit their pants if someone's yarmulke gets knocked off that say otherwise.
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:47 PM Author: Mint ratface Why? It's an inevitable consequence. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490971) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:12 PM Author: vibrant pozpig range c-fucking-r (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492337) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:08 AM Author: Crawly orange round eye reading party Japanese general: "the Emperor must know about this. Find the freshest horse in camp and send a runner immediately." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490313) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:59 AM Author: Confused fluffy stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490265) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:08 PM Author: vibrant pozpig range lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492317) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:55 AM Author: Nudist jet set yeah but they could have totally evaluated the effects of the nuclear bomb if we had detonated it on some remote island "as a demonstration" like shitlibs always suggest (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489990) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:35 AM Author: big point fanboi Well, yeah, they probably could. It's a fucking A-bomb.
Better yet, do it in Tokyo Bay so they could see it themselves. Or blast a military base. There's a lot of options between "never use a nuke ever" and "deliberately kill as many civilians as possible," which was the approach towards Hiroshima. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:13 AM Author: Crawly orange round eye reading party And yet we dropped it square in the middle of a city, and it took two of those fuckers to do the trick. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490342) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:35 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action lol. Yeah. We could drop some leaflets beforehand.
ATTENTION JAPANESE PEOPLE, WE WILL BE FLYING A HIGHLY DANGEROUS AND TOP SECRET WEAPON OVER YOUR BAY AT 1:00 PM LOCAL TIME. PLEASE DO NOT FIRE AT THIS PLANE OR SEND ANY FIGHTERS TO INTERCEPT AND SHOOT DOWN SO YOU CAN STEAL THE TECHNOLOGY FOR YOURSELVES. ALSO, YOU WILL PROBABLY WANT TO COVER YOUR EYES AND THEN PREPARE FOR A TIDAL WAVE/DEATH OF ALL ANIMAL LIFE IN THE BAY. WE SINCERELY HOPE THIS CAUSES YOU TO RECONSIDER YOUR DESIRE TO KILL US AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:41 PM Author: charismatic people who are hurt kitchen I mean, after Hiroshima and before Nagasaki we DID drop leaflets saying pretty much that. And even so, the Japanese high command sat around flicking their critpeens.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/
Leaflets dropped on cities in Japan warning civilians about the atomic bomb, dropped c. August 6, 1945
TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE: America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet.
We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.
We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city.
Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan.
You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.
ATTENTION JAPANESE PEOPLE. EVACUATE YOUR CITIES. Because your military leaders have rejected the thirteen part surrender declaration, two momentous events have occurred in the last few days.
The Soviet Union, because of this rejection on the part of the military has notified your Ambassador Sato that it has declared war on your nation. Thus, all powerful countries of the world are now at war with you.
Also, because of your leaders' refusal to accept the surrender declaration that would enable Japan to honorably end this useless war, we have employed our atomic bomb.
A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s could have carried on a single mission. Radio Tokyo has told you that with the first use of this weapon of total destruction, Hiroshima was virtually destroyed.
Before we use this bomb again and again to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, petition the emperor now to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better, and peace-loving Japan.
Act at once or we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.
Source: Harry S. Truman Library, Miscellaneous historical document file, no. 258.
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:13 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Yeah I knew they did that. However, for a demonstration in water to be effective, you kind of have to be looking out the window when it happens. Just a massive cloud of smoke probably wouldn't convince you had you not been paying attention or been elsewhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491100) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:13 PM Author: vibrant pozpig range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492351) |
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Date: August 7th, 2015 3:02 PM Author: Transparent gaping We only had two and couldn't make more. We couldn't afford to waste one as a demonstration. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28501969) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:48 PM Author: Dark gas station Actually some historians believe that Japan did try to surrender, but their message to the U.S. was ambiguous so Truman said fuck it and nuked them a second time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491296) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:58 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action I think Japan tried to surrender to just the US and not to the Soviets, but the US had to decline or Stalin would be MAF. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491377) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:02 PM Author: Dark gas station We should have nuked the soviets when we had the chance. Patton asked Truman to do this but was shut down. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491413) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:07 AM Author: Nudist jet set It was a lib president who dropped the bomb too, before libs became SHITlibs. The transformation of the left from people like Truman to people who lisp "NOT OKAY" is tragic.
As for atomic bombs, they saved hundreds of thousands of lives in WW2 and have saved more lives in the 70 years since by serving as a powerful deterrent. Thank god for the atom bomb indeed. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:03 AM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor full credit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490287) |
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Date: August 9th, 2015 2:43 AM Author: sapphire depressive (Lisping lib dressing up in his British schoolboy uniform and masturbating with the Union Jack)
What a fucking disappointment |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:09 AM Author: honey-headed plaza YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489852) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:10 AM Author: Garnet yarmulke institution Son, we live in a world that has Japs. And those Japs have to be bombed by atom bombs. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Shitlib? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for gooks and you curse whitey. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping the atom bombs, while tragic, probably saved lives. And the atom bombs, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you wanted to drop those bombs. You needed to drop those bombs. We use words like PROBLWMATIC, EQUALITY, and NOT OKAY ...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent riding faggot AIDS cock. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who penetrates and pounds the very faghole I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you, atom bombs, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you put on a dress and chop off your dick. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to! |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:07 AM Author: green double fault mental disorder Underrated. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490307) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:16 PM Author: vibrant pozpig range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492378) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:10 AM Author: Iridescent medicated church building https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2zty7o/in_one_my_my_professors_lectures_he_mentioned/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490061) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:24 AM Author: pink center becky Atomic bombs. Because that's a thing. In 1945. REALLY. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489895) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:33 AM Author: slippery aphrodisiac cruise ship it's a reasonable question (no shitlib). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489922) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:45 AM Author: Tripping exciting resort The answer is yes. Now kindly STFU already. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489954) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:46 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale the argument hasn't been won for 70 years, it's just that the shitlibs now have more ways to make their emotional arguments via shitlib clickbait sites (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489963) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:50 AM Author: big point fanboi The original critics of the bombings (atomic and otherwise) were Christians and conservative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489975) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 9:50 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale you mean "bend me over and fuck me in the ass" quakers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28489977) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:04 AM Author: slippery aphrodisiac cruise ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490024) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:08 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale i'm familiar with it, so whats your point? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490043) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:09 AM Author: slippery aphrodisiac cruise ship it's coming from catholics rather than quakers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490049) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:12 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale there's plenty of catholic arguments justifying the atomic bombings (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490068) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:12 AM Author: Nudist jet set ok so "bend over and fuck me in the ass catholics" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490069) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:28 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale if you just glance at the link he posted you will see that the most prominent catholic scholars on the issue do not believe in pacifism (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490112) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:47 AM Author: big point fanboi No, I mean people like:
-Fulton Sheen, a premier Catholic bishop in the U.S. -David Lawrence, conservative owner of U.S. News -The conservative editorial staff of the Chicago Tribune -The editors at National Review, who condemned Truman's decision to use the bomb in the 50s -Conservative writer George Schuyler -Catholic philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe -Catholic World editor Fr. James Gillis -Anglican bishop George Bell -Ex-leftist and major conservative thinker Richard Weaver |
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Date: August 7th, 2015 3:34 PM Author: Transparent gaping Is it conceivable that, just like today, prominent people in the other party just fucking hated the guys in power and did everything they could to shit on the cabinet's decisions? Put another way, if Dewey had been POTUS, would all those people have been like FUCK YEAH BEND THOSE JAPS OVER and the Democrats been like DROP AN A-BOMB? I CAN'T EVEN! |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:11 AM Author: Histrionic Ungodly Church It's really weird when you think about it. The biggest conventional war in world history ends with the use of nightmarish space age technology that obliterates two cities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490065) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:46 AM Author: fishy 180 striped hyena casino (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490181) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:46 AM Author: sexy elastic band did US know what would happen? it seems like hiroshima is justified but nagaski might not be.
did y'all read the john hershey new yorker stories? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:50 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale link us, fag
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:51 AM Author: sexy elastic band from 1946. extremely long, it was published as a book: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1946/08/31/hiroshima (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490215) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:55 AM Author: Bateful Bronze Locale lol, read that in the 8th grade. like some melting jap eyeballs is gonna sway my opinion (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490244) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:55 AM Author: sexy elastic band just think it's interesting man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490249) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 10:55 AM Author: fishy 180 striped hyena casino great link, thank (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490250) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:02 AM Author: Citrine fragrant location black woman hersey's "the child buyer" messed with my head. still a good read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Child_Buyer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490278) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:55 PM Author: Dark gas station Not really. One of the reasons we wanted to drop it on Japan was to test its effects in a populated city. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491355) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:01 AM Author: avocado swashbuckling factory reset button shitlibs are right, we should have just kept fire bombing them instead. much more humane (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490272) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:07 AM Author: big point fanboi The firebombings were also evil. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490305) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:13 AM Author: Jade Athletic Conference Abode All wars are evil you fucktwat. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490343) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:42 AM Author: big point fanboi Indeed! And that's why we ought to avoid fighting them.
But nevertheless there are just wars and unjust wars, and both just and unjust ways of fighting them. Deliberately massacring civilians is an unjust way of fighting them, and embracing such tactics is a retreat back into barbarism. It's an appalling excuse, given that people in substantially tougher times rejected such lines of thinking. The American Civil War was just as desperate a struggle as World War 2 yet there was no deliberate embrace of mass murder by either side. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:04 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor This is actually getting kind of fun. You are aware that the Union Army deliberately shelled civilians in Charleston with the "Swamp Angel" battery on Morris Island. They didn't cause much damage but they were firing incendiary devices intended to cause fires and civilian casualties - that it occurred on a much smaller scale was only a result of a lack of technology. However, at the time, it was a technological marvel, as it was both the first long range bombardment of an area using mathematics to aim cannon and the first area bombardment of a civilian population (they used St. Phillips church steeple as aiming point).
That is in addition to the Burning of Bluffton early in teh war (1862?) to where the Union Army intentionally attacked a small civilian village after the fall of Fort Wagner. There was no real military target and the purpose was to punish the civilian population and destroy property.
But go on, I'm enjoying your educating me about history. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:10 PM Author: big point fanboi (guy citing the unusual decision by a local commander to burn a small town's buildings without massacring its civilians as evidence the Civil War was a TOTAL WAR with mass targeting of civilians)
(guy totally ignoring Sherman's March to the Sea which had deliberate rules intended to preserve civilian lives even though it was supposedly "total war") |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:14 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor Bluffton burning - odd decision by local commander.
Targeting of civilians in Charleston (a major campaign of the civil war) - dudarama, that shit happened.
Sherman, the humanitarian. Run with this some more. Motherfucker burnt Atlanta and Columbia to the ground.
How old are you? |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:30 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Also, it's odd that he's comparing a war in 1940 to a war in 1860. Pretty sure the Japanese weren't going to play by the rules and stand in a line in a field and wait for the US soldiers to march up in their line and just stand there and fire at one another until one side broke and got bayoneted to death.
If the South had high powered rifles, booby traps, no morals, and a desire to fight to the death, I'm pretty sure Sherman's march would've been much, much worse than it already was. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:36 PM Author: big point fanboi Bro I think there is a different between burning buildings to the ground and burning people to the ground. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490888) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:39 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action Yeah, people love living outdoors so much that we have fur and shit to help us survive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490919) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:41 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor I'm laughing thinking about the union army conducting safety checks of the buildings prior to opening fire on them/ burning them.
Lower casualties was only for lack of technology i.e. most civilians had warning to run for their fucking lives htmfh |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:52 PM Author: big point fanboi Laughably untrue, bro. We have plenty of instances in the Civil War where people had the opportunity to be murderous and refused it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491000) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:26 PM Author: Jade Athletic Conference Abode Holy shit dude, learn some fucking history. Just lol at using SHERMAN as an example of restraint during wartime. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490825) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:29 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor I was hoping that this guy was a delightful flame, but I fear not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490839) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:38 PM Author: big point fanboi That's the entire point, man. Sherman is supposedly this ALL-OUT, TOTAL WAR guy who took the Civil War to its most extreme...and he was still just mostly just burning buildings while trying to minimize civilian deaths and leaving specific instructions to ensure they didn't starve and the like. That shows the incredible divide between the world he inhabited and the one that fought World War 2, where absolutely anything was allowed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490912) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:41 PM Author: Jade Athletic Conference Abode "You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out."
-General William Tecumseh Sherman
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Date: August 6th, 2015 7:48 PM Author: irradiated den hissy fit Sherman wrote Grant that "we must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children."
o what a humane warrior! |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:57 PM Author: Dark gas station No, fuck the Japanese for starting the war by attacking us. You think we should have sent a few hundred thousand more Americans to their deaths instead of vaporizing a couple Japanese cities? Well fuck you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491367) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 1:29 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action So we should've just waited to fight Japan until we developed precision bombing like 30 years later? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491192) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:09 AM Author: green double fault mental disorder I just responded thusly on FB to a Japanese American dude who posted something to this effect regarding the use of the atom bomb:
Uh, if you fuck with the bull, you get the horns. The only people to blame for the atom bomb being dropped on Hiroshima are the Japanese. Period. End of story. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:14 AM Author: avocado swashbuckling factory reset button lol @ shitlibs trying to judge history. after decades of HERSTORY bullshit they are completely disassociated from the reality of war and real decisions. an entire country mobilized for total war in an epic do or die conflict the world has never seen before? heh yeah, those 2 bombs were just too much, really ashamed of my cuntry now. smh, thank god for all the NEW and RIGHTEOUS americans we are importing. they will have a more diverse and LOGICAL perspective on the white devil and his imperialistic SLAUGHTER of the innocent japanese (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490349) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:03 PM Author: mustard quadroon (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491430) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:10 PM Author: stirring elite main people agreed. read that Fussell piece i linked to. understand what the Americans understood would happen if there were an invasion of the Japanese homeland -- what would happen not just to us but also to the Japanese civilians. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491486) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 11:56 AM Author: Crimson Curious Pit Yeah it is ludicrous. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490609) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:15 PM Author: hateful duck-like site puppy keep in mind that even after the second bomb was dropped elements of the Japanese army STAGED A COUP to try and keep the war going (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490760) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:28 PM Author: dun concupiscible orchestra pit tank ITT: Roman Catholicism gaping the opposition (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490838) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:43 PM Author: Brindle Aromatic Kitty Cat RAN HERE. The only mass murder ITT is CharlesXIItp firebombing immoral positons. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490948) |
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Date: August 9th, 2015 2:47 AM Author: sapphire depressive 180, man spits truth. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28511998) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:39 PM Author: charismatic people who are hurt kitchen CharlesXII brother you are getting unhinged itt. you know full well that the atomic bombs weren't used to "maximize civilian deaths." Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mid-size cities chosen for their industrial and military importance. You're being a disingenuous fag for arguing otherwise and doing so in a way that is unbecoming of ur IQ and ur historical and political knowledge.
The Potsdam Declaration in late July laid out the terms for Japan's surrender, lest it face "prompt and utter destruction." Japan told us to STFU. We bombed Hiroshima (then dropped a bunch of leaflets and Truman gave speeches saying there was more coming and telling Japanese civilians to evacuate their cities). Still the Japanese leadership said "ndb, they probably don't have any more and couldn't invade for a while anyway." It was only after Nagasaki AND the Soviets declaring war and moving into Manchuria that Hirohito and Tojo decided to surrender, and EVEN THEN, tons of military officers went apeshit and tried to storm the palace to prevent Hirohito from broadcasting the surrender.
Up above you referenced Sherman's march to the sea. As you well know, Sherman didn't HAVE to go house to house killing civilians and getting roadside bombed, because Lee set the tone for how the South waged war, and as horrible as it was, when the decision came as to how they would proceed at the end -- surrender or dissipate into the woods and launch guerrilla attacks -- Lee recognized there is more dishonor in civilians being bands of robbers than there is in laying down ur arms when beaten. The Japanese believed differently. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:47 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor You know, Lee owned slaves, bigot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28490970) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 12:49 PM Author: big point fanboi 1. Other than Kyoto (which was avoided for political reasons) Hiroshima was the largest city that hadn't been substantially bombed during the war, so it pretty much WAS the city that would probably see the most casualties in an attack. Its military significance was not that great, which helps to explain the lack of bombing despite its size.
Still, I'll retract my claim that the U.S. was literally "maximizing" civilian casualties, though I do believe they were callous about them and ignored viable alternatives that could have lowered the body count.
Keep in mind that as far as strat bombing goes in general, killing lots of civilians WAS a goal.
2. The Potsdam Declaration and leaflet shit are disingenuous hack arguments and hardly worth addressing. Decisions by leadership don't justify the massacre of innocents; nor does the inability of the powerless to act.
3. Your Civil War argument doesn't make any sense bro. Lee did not fight in the Western theater, and you're also creating a fictitous, super-noble Southern approach to war. In fact, out west the South actually DID have murderous guerrilla fighters, but that still didn't lead to the wholesale extermination of towns and cities. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:06 PM Author: floppy coffee pot At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of both industrial and military significance. A number of military units were located nearby, the most important of which was the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan,[104] and was located in Hiroshima Castle. Hata's command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly anticipated.[105] Also present in Hiroshima were the headquarters of the 59th Army, the 5th Division and the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit.[106] The city was defended by five batteries of 7-and-8-centimeter (2.8 and 3.1 in) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division, including units from the 121st and 122nd Anti-Aircraft Regiments and the 22nd and 45th Separate Anti-Aircraft Battalions. In total, over 40,000 military personnel were stationed in the city.[107]
Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military, but it also had large stockpiles of military supplies.[108] The city was a communications center, a key port for shipping and an assembly area for troops.[73] It was also the second largest city in Japan after Kyoto that was still undamaged by air raids,[109] due to the fact that it lacked the aircraft manufacturing industry that was the XXI Bomber Command's priority target.
The goal wasn't to kill the most civilians. It was to allow for the biggest impact in order to convince Japan that they needed to accept the terms of surrender. The geography of Hiroshima was thought to allow for enhancement of the blast, and would create a wider amount of destruction (yes this would generally mean more casualties, but the important thing was to destroy as much of the city as possible with one blast, even if it was empty).
Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target."[70]
The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released. Kyoto had the advantage of being an important center for military industry, as well an intellectual center and hence a population better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value."[70]
The only reason they didn't warn civilians in advance (not that they would or could have listened) is that they were worried the Japanese would intercept the plane and be able to steal the weapon. It seems disingenuous to assume that the goal was mass casualties. Military heads even discussed allowing for a demonstration of the bomb's capabilities to try to convince Japan to surrender, but they saw nothing that would convince them to short of direct military use.
And even then, it still took a SECOND bombing AND Russia declaring war to convince them to stop. War is ugly and civilian casualties are tragic but unfortunately inevitable. Shitlibs act like someone said "ok, the bomb's ready, let's throw it on the biggest city they have!" The President and military leaders spent MONTHS carefully selecting targets, trying to come up with peaceful alternatives, and simultaneously planning a land invasion. They weighed all the options before them and selected what they thought would lead to the quickest end to the war with the least amount of casualties on BOTH sides. They didn't just say "fuck it, burn 'em all." |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:44 PM Author: Scarlet turdskin There is little moral difference between the bombings of Tokyo, Hamburg, and Hiroshima. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492193) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:01 PM Author: Dark gas station We were right to use them and we should have also dropped them on the Soviet Union immediately after WWII like General patton wanted to. Would have said us the trouble of the Cold War. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491408) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:02 PM Author: arousing misanthropic stead affirmative action We had a chance to use them again in Korea when McArthur asked Truman to use them on the Chinese. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491417) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:12 PM Author: stirring elite main people Think about what the Soviets did to human lives before and after WWII. The human slaughter they committed. Shitlibs and lefties in the US pretend that it never happened. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491497) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:15 PM Author: Magenta wonderful address There actually was a third alternative to bombing and invasion: an indefinite blockade. Japan was in no position to rebuild its forces without outside resources.
I'm sure shitlibs would tout this as the humane alternative, but it would've wrought mass starvation, doing much more harm to civilians than nukes.
Yes, nukes were the least evil of all options on the table |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:11 PM Author: Dark gas station you fucking dipshit. the soviets were invading japan from the north and weren't stopping to ask our permission. if we hadn't nukefucked them and ended the war ASAP japan would have had an iron curtain like europe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491879) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 4:17 PM Author: Magenta wonderful address umm, how many aircraft carriers did the USSR have?
They weren't doing going to do jack fucking shit in Truman's Pacific. hth |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 2:49 PM Author: Spectacular anal cuck masturbator For various reasons I don't want to go into here, the "just war" argument given above doesn't sway me.
Someone I know recently argued that the Japanese were going to surrender anyway and that the primary purpose of the atomic bombs was to intimidate the USSR. If true, I probably would condemn the act as a senseless massacre. However, this does not appear to be the case. See this reddit comment by a professional historian, which I have copied below.
TheGuineaPig21 14 points 4 months ago Research from the 1990s has fundamentally changed the answer to this question, and using sources like Alperovitz or even Bernstein that are fairly out of vogue misrepresents the current historical consensus on the matter, in my opinion.
Prior to the decision to drop the bomb, some members of the Japanese political leadership were working behind the scenes to try to negotiate a conditional surrender whose terms did (in many ways) closely resemble the unconditional terms of peace that was later accepted. This is true. There were individuals, particularly in the civilian government, who urged surrender. The Japanese ambassador to the Soviet Union is a prominent example. Likewise, the military establishment was dead set against it. One of the key impacts of recent research has been efforts to qualify the relative importance of each, and the conclusion has been that it was the military, and most importantly the six-person War Council, who ultimately had real control. The War Council met on August 9th, 1945 to discuss suing for peace, in response to the bombing of Hiroshima and the attack by the Soviet Union. During the course of the meeting news was delivered that Nagasaki had likewise been destroyed by an atomic bomb. At the end of the meeting their opinion on surrender was the following: all six rejected unconditional surrender three supported surrender on the condition that the Emperor remain unaffected three supported surrender on the further conditions that Japan try its own war criminals, conduct its own disarmament, and not be occupied It's obvious to see how these terms were non-starters. And this was the situation after two atomic bombs and the Soviet attack. Tsuyoshi Hasegawa concluded in his work Racing the Enemy that “without the twin shocks of the atomic bombs and Soviet entry into the war, the Japanese would never have accepted surrender in August". This is accepted position among most publishing historians on this subject matter. I have a ton of sources, but if you want to read about historiography there's a pair of articles by J. Samuel Walker from 1990 and 2005 that charts the historiography of the subject that give some insight into the way opinions have shifted. The former is called "The Decision to Use the Bomb: A Historiographical Update", and the latter there is a free link to here. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:15 PM Author: aqua odious psychic lol @ libs pretending to care about asians (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28491909) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:36 PM Author: Scarlet turdskin Dan Carlin does a great job with this debate. He does a full recap of the history of carpet bombing of civilians, from Guernica to Hiroshima. His general conclusion is that, as far as human suffering goes, there is no significant difference between being A-bombed or fire-bombed or carpet-bombed otherwise for the people on the ground. USA is therefore morally no different than any of the other powers of WWII. Honestly, there's no point in debating this among amateurs when you can listen to the HH episode about it.
http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-42-blitz-logical-insanity/
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:40 PM Author: Scarlet turdskin Also, the assumption that precise bombing to avoid killing civilians was possible in WWII was false. Remember, raids occurred at nighttime. Average bomb had a margin of error of greater than 3 miles. So you couldn't just target a big factory or train station--you just had to fly over population areas and let it do what it do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492169) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:47 PM Author: big point fanboi Well, the upshot of this wasn't "I guess we just had to kill civilians to destroy factories," it was "Strategic bombing was a massive failure at everything except killing people." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28492213) |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:53 PM Author: Scarlet turdskin Listen to the hh history episode. People thought that carpet bombing was actually more humane, because it would end the war quickly. No one really knew how societies would respond to mass bombing. Many assumed societies would completely give up after getting bombed. They would overthrow their governments to make it stop. That didn't happen--it just pissed people off, or eventually made them resigned to their fates.
Similar to how the effects of technical advances of machine guns caught everyone off guard with how to fight with. |
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Date: August 6th, 2015 3:47 PM Author: Vivacious walnut fortuitous meteor This
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Date: August 6th, 2015 6:32 PM Author: Cheese-eating hall stock car saved many more civilian lives in japan and the countries japan invaded by shortening the war by a few months. full stop. worth it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2955065&forum_id=2#28493444) |