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Lethal threat to my Christian faith: its apparent plasticity

Perhaps some other Christmos can help save me here. I thi...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/b/ba/Fr...
brindle native
  11/15/17
The way of Jesus has been unfortunately twisted and manipula...
mind-boggling step-uncle's house feces
  11/15/17
I can get on board with Prot criticisms of the RCC until I t...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
Don’t forget the rainbow flags
Razzle-dazzle blue pervert
  11/15/17
And yet if the Pope decided gay was ok, catholicmos like you...
ungodly sex offender chad
  11/15/17
That's an exaggeration. But you can see this is really happe...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
Lol @ Protestantmos. What did you think was the logical endg...
Razzle-dazzle blue pervert
  11/15/17
...
anal brunch water buffalo
  11/15/17
Im catholic and everything in my post is about catholicism.
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
...
mustard stead
  11/15/17
...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Or Orthodox
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
it's already the last church standing
Coiffed Mentally Impaired Library
  11/15/17
I’m a pretty conservative Christian and i don’t necessary ag...
ungodly sex offender chad
  11/15/17
I dont think you could take issue with my claim that Christi...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
There's something to this critique, but " There exi...
Sapphire university gaming laptop
  11/15/17
...
Apoplectic hot senate circlehead
  11/15/17
"It's a veneer painted over other systems that do the r...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
I cannot take your points seriously at all if you believe th...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
I put this point in parenthesis. You don't have to accept i...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
I think my OP and your non-parenthetical resonate. But I had...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
Okay. It's cool. People can disagree on that point (and ve...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
agreed. I dont need it to be "absolute truth". ...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
I think we are coming back around to the point I made at 9:4...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
...
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
*leans into mic* http://www.sheffieldphoenix.com/showbook...
Aquamarine Masturbator Mood
  11/15/17
Richard Carrier casually dismisses all of the methodology us...
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
"Essential reading on this point is my book Proving His...
Aquamarine Masturbator Mood
  11/15/17
There absolutely was a lower class carpenter/stone mason nam...
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
Woah woah woah woah --stone mason? (I'm familiar w this...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
...
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
Blessed are Christian autists for theirs is an autist lawbo...
naked boiling water
  11/15/17
...
carnelian theater stage striped hyena
  11/15/17
...
narrow-minded locale community account
  11/15/17
Can provide Scripture references for all argumentation if ne...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
smuckers
naked boiling water
  11/15/17
*highlights poster* I will actually print this out and re...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
Absolutely. If you ever want to talk more, email me at myver...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
57893427590247692
topaz reading party
  11/15/17
All of these points are basically arguments over what shape ...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
The inherent issue with plasticity that OP raises is the que...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
No, he's specifically asking about the legitimacy of the fai...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Think he’s saying that the plasticity shouldn’t bother OP be...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
See my edited add-on above please.
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Humanity having been unable to grasp something so far —/—>...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
So Christianity is legit we just haven't been able to "...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Idk ask a christmo
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
Even the "you just aren't doing it correctly and a goal...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
I already told you what the dude's argument is. you keep try...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
No, I think I've spelled it out properly. I'm not usually...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Actually you’re right, I was just getting tired of the argum...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
Cr. I agree. So whats the correct interpretation? &quo...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
Precisely what I'm saying.
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
So how is OP expected to find it when no one else has gotten...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Careful exegesis. It's important to understand that I'm NOT ...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
Did'nt biblical scholars do significant work on the problems...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
No, I'm not saying it's beyond man's grasp, but that it's qu...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
Okay, so "mainstream" whatever that means in the c...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
he does address OP’s concern, but it does read like a law s...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
Not really, because he's just sayig there's another way of l...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Edited
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
I think you and OP are using plasticity differently - OP mea...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
Yeah, I know what you are saying in the above response. You...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Ultimately, yes, there are parts of faith (and life as a who...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
Well wait a minute. There's Msytery because we just don't k...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Wasn't meant that way, but I think that a thorough response ...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
...
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
I didn’t mean it too harshly and if the topic’s something th...
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
What kind of church do you attend
Curious plaza main people
  11/15/17
I'm Presbyterian, currently working through my objections to...
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
make sure to get a good editor
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
seriously though
Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma
  11/15/17
lol
Dun twisted house
  11/15/17
"It's unkind not to help someone sustain part of a harm...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
...
glittery business firm cumskin
  11/15/17
Pretty accurate. My mind was slightly blown upon realizing t...
Comical disturbing kitty cat
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...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Author was Einstein.
Peach corn cake stock car
  11/15/17
yeah it's all bullshit lmao
Cocky casino pocket flask
  11/15/17
...
aggressive sable quadroon national
  11/15/17
Try to be a good person and do nice things. Find a church th...
Shimmering box office
  11/15/17


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:04 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

Perhaps some other Christmos can help save me here.

I think it's readily apparent that our fundamental understanding of Christianity now would be abhorrent to Christians only a few centuries ago. Today the dominant view of Christianity is that it stands for the inclusion of all outcasts, particularly the non-Christian. "Jesus would never reject anyone." Jesus stands for ultimate tolerance. His vicar on earth is most Christ-like when he is welcoming non-Christian migrants into the holy city and washing their feet. His vicar on earth loves gays and transexuals, because that is what Jesus would do.

The purpose of my post is not merely to condemn this interpretation of Christianity. There seems to be scriptural support for it. Why should we passively accept Muslims, even if they aim to kill us? Well, Christ emptied himself, even unto death. He valorized Samaritans in the face of Judeans. He passively accepted crucifixion at the hands of his enemies. Why should we eschew rigid sexual regulation? Well, whether it was with the woman at the well or the woman who would be stoned, Jesus of the New Testament seemed quick to embrace sexual deviants.

The purpose of my post is to point out that this Christianity would be completely foreign to Christians a few hundred years ago, who with great sincerity understood their Christian obligation to be to drive out Muslims and to convert any Jews. They understood, with scriptural support, that they had to fiercely condemn lustful behavior and any kind of sexual union that was not between a man and a woman.

So here's my problem -- if Christianity is that plastic, if it can be bent at will by any cultural trend, and is merely a prophylactic for *other*, more powerful moral systems, than what is it worth, really? It's a veneer painted over other systems that do the real heavy lifting, whether nationalism or shitlibbery, or whatever.

And that really threatens my faith.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691452)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:04 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692651)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:06 AM
Author: brindle native

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/b/ba/Francisgriffin.PNG

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691459)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:08 AM
Author: mind-boggling step-uncle's house feces

The way of Jesus has been unfortunately twisted and manipulated for a very very very long time. The RCC in particular.

The hierarchy, simony and monetary corruption that has plagued the organized Church in the past (and now all this crazy gay shit) is the Whore of Babylon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691465)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:11 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

I can get on board with Prot criticisms of the RCC until I take a look at Protestant churches. Sola scriptura is nonsensical. Who is reading the fucking text? Collating it, translating it, explaining it? Clearly you need tradition. And what authority and tradition do Prots have?

Worse, look at protestantism in action. It devolves into local churches that kook out at the first possible, low IQ moment, handling snakes and hosting rock bands. Or it mimics RCC in big, mainstream churches that become so second-rate and bland that no one ever goes.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691478)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:13 AM
Author: Razzle-dazzle blue pervert

Don’t forget the rainbow flags

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691486)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:21 AM
Author: ungodly sex offender chad

And yet if the Pope decided gay was ok, catholicmos like you would have to agree because of your “tradition” of the pope being the voice of God

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691527)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:25 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

That's an exaggeration. But you can see this is really happening right now. The pope, when questioned about gay priests, famously said, "Who I am to judge?"

Think about that for fucking second. A pope saying "who am i to judge?"

It was a typical shitlib move, because of course the pope HAS judged and he has judged that being gay is like having green eyes, unimportant to your soul, and that the moral christian response is to be blind to such unimportant matters.

While self-styled orthodox catholics are pushing back on the pope for things like this, he is only voicing how the majority of humans (in the west) understand jesus -- as the pinnacle in acceptance and tolerance.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691546)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:10 AM
Author: Razzle-dazzle blue pervert

Lol @ Protestantmos. What did you think was the logical endgame? Catholicism is the only Christian religion that stands a chance against modernity.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691475)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:11 AM
Author: anal brunch water buffalo



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691477)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:12 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

Im catholic and everything in my post is about catholicism.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691481)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:26 AM
Author: mustard stead



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691548)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:47 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692968)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 12:41 PM
Author: topaz reading party

Or Orthodox

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692910)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 12:58 PM
Author: Coiffed Mentally Impaired Library

it's already the last church standing

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693080)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:16 AM
Author: ungodly sex offender chad

I’m a pretty conservative Christian and i don’t necessary agree with this. Christianity hundreds of years ago had run amok to the point where the church was either selling salvation or forcing people to convert-neither of which would conform to the message of the Bible. The majority of churches today still agree that homosexuality is a sin. The idea that you kick out or completely reject someone for sinning runs contrary to the Bible. Most churches will not, however, allow a practicing homosexual to serve in leadership just like they would not allow an unrepentant adulterer to do so. You have to accept that you are winning before you can really come to accept what Jesus did for you on the cross. Most churches fundamentally agree on that principle.

Regarding nationalism, the church has always transcendsed national boundaries, which was why there was so much conflict between the Catholic Church and European kings in the 1300s-1700s.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691513)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:23 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

I dont think you could take issue with my claim that Christianity 2017 (TM) is a completely different product from Christianity 1450(TM) and not just with superficial differences, like language, or unrelated differences, like technology.

And it is most apparent in the understanding of who Jesus Christ is. There existed a Christianity where Jesus was a King and if one did not bend the knee at his name and receive the holy waters of baptism, one would very literally spend eternity in damnation. LOL at finding a contemporary Christian who truly believes that. Jesus today is a kind, soft friend, whose message is one of salvation for all. Both have scriptural support, but they make rival claims about reality.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691535)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 12:09 PM
Author: Sapphire university gaming laptop

There's something to this critique, but

" There existed a Christianity where Jesus was a King and if one did not bend the knee at his name and receive the holy waters of baptism, one would very literally spend eternity in damnation."

every church I've ever been in would still affirm this as the governing principle



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692690)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:47 PM
Author: Apoplectic hot senate circlehead



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693445)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:26 AM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

"It's a veneer painted over other systems that do the real heavy lifting, whether nationalism or shitlibbery, or whatever."

This is essentially correct. It also, because it's supposed to be treated as "the word of god" it also drives EXTREME behavior.

Jesus doesn't really get an A grade on morality teaching.

Also, we don't really get a clear sense of Jesus --who he was--from the bible--at one moment he's a pacifist or a quietist, at the next moment he's calling for bloody revolution. At one moment the Kingdom of God is here right now, inside us, at the next moment, it's coming from on high in the lifetime of the people who were around when the stories were written up some 300 years after the fact. (There's a reason for this: There was no Jesus. He's a heroic character like Moses. But that might be too much for you right now.) Just think on the plasticity some more, and you'll see how toxic and false religion is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691547)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:32 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

I cannot take your points seriously at all if you believe there was no historical Jesus.

This is a very dumb position and it is dumb because it betrays no understanding of history. It expects a modern version of a historical record.

We have about as much historical record of Jesus as we have of ANYONE who lived thousands of years ago. What the fuck do you think the new testament is? Written between c. 70 and c.110 AD, we have dozens of writings about a non-politician. Who else do we have any of that about?

Even using basic logic, Christmos were dying for Jesus by the 70s and 80s. You think that mere decades after an infernal conspiracy to invent a magic character, people (some of whom would have been eye witnesses) would die for the lie?

Or are all of those early christians invented, too?

Indisputably there was a controversial Galilean preacher named Jesus who purported to work miracles and who upset Jewish leaders and who was killed by Romans. Perhaps the rest is mythology, but dont be dumb



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691591)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:36 AM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

I put this point in parenthesis. You don't have to accept it to accept the rest of what I'm saying. It's pretty clearly detachable from the balance of what I say, and I intended it to be so.

If you have trouble doing so you just aren't thinking clearly enough about the issue yet. Think on your OP question some more.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691620)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:38 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

I think my OP and your non-parenthetical resonate. But I had to call out that enormous neon sign within the parentheses.

It's like agreeing with someone about some controversial climate issue and they throw in parentheses that the earth is flat.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691634)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:43 AM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Okay. It's cool. People can disagree on that point (and vehemently do.) Let's accept the premise that as you say there was a historical jesus who was teaching, made people mad, got kilt by the Romans via crucifiction.

You are right to say Christianity can be spread across to justify any act, like Smuckers jelly. And that plasticity suggests that its not an absolute truth.

Some very smart people who wrestled with this concluded that it must be some sort of faith thing--just believe in him and thru that belief you get the bennies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691668)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 9:49 AM
Author: Curious plaza main people

agreed.

I dont need it to be "absolute truth". If it is, all the better, but I think that is kind of a greek idea that is in tension with the more jewish ideas central to christianity.

i do need it to be sincere, however, and not merely.... my vocabulary and IQ fail me in finding the right analogy. I have used plastic and prophylactic and veneer, and those get close to what I mean.

Anyway, I will keep thinking about it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691714)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:25 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

I think we are coming back around to the point I made at 9:43 this morning.

You faggots should listen to me more than you do. I'm 140 plus IQ.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693712)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:47 PM
Author: topaz reading party



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693453)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 2:38 PM
Author: Aquamarine Masturbator Mood

*leans into mic*

http://www.sheffieldphoenix.com/showbook.asp?bkid=264

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 3:01 PM
Author: topaz reading party

Richard Carrier casually dismisses all of the methodology used by ancient historians with scarce materials tbh

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693963)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 3:59 PM
Author: Aquamarine Masturbator Mood

"Essential reading on this point is my book Proving History (on the widespread abuse of fallacies in Jesus studies) and my previous article on Arguments from Consensus. The former in turn cites every dedicated peer reviewed study any scholar has made of the methods used in Jesus studies, and every single one found them to be too fallacious or inadequate to establish the conclusions claimed with them. When every study of your methods by multiple experts in your own field finds those methods don’t work, you know “consensus” has become a fallacious argument. Your field is in need of major reform."

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13352

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34694403)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 12:41 PM
Author: topaz reading party

There absolutely was a lower class carpenter/stone mason named Yeshua who ran around 1st century Judea preaching. You cannot seriously deny this if you actually studied history

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692907)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:32 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Woah woah woah woah --stone mason?

(I'm familiar w this and know where it comes from) Stone mason? That's not the story I grew up w! Jesus or Y-SH-A or Joshua made wooden furniture bro. Surely your not telling me the story gets add-ons?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693763)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:37 PM
Author: topaz reading party



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693813)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:32 AM
Author: naked boiling water

Blessed are Christian autists

for theirs is an autist lawbort

Blessed are Christian race realists

for they shall have niggerthreads

Blessed are petty Christian clitdicks

for they shall have likeminded clitdicks

Blessed are the meek

for they shall know scholarship (and Darnell)

Blessed are those who hunger for misogny

for they shall have low IQ fempoasters to insult



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691592)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:52 PM
Author: carnelian theater stage striped hyena



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693020)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 9:42 AM
Author: narrow-minded locale community account



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34691663)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:05 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Can provide Scripture references for all argumentation if necessary.

I) I think that this dilemma is premised on a few false assumptions:

- A) That either the older Church or today's Church got it mostly right, in some way. This isn't necessarily true.

- B) That Scripture was/is not misinterpreted to provide the basis for either of those extremes. Closely related to the prior assumption, the assumption that one of these two choices is correct is uncertain, and probably false; there is often far less Scriptural support on both sides that you've referenced than there is purported to be.

- C) That Christianity is monolithic, and thus, mainstream ideologies are representative of the Church in its entirety or its purest. This is untrue; while mainstream Christianity today has deviated radically from what was orthodox for an overwhelming majority of the history of the church, that doesn't mean that all Christians today have done so.

- D) That the majority of professing Christians are doctrinally sound, and are thus representative of true Christianity. This is by no means certain, and in fact is unlikely; it is Scriptural to believe that many will apostatize or adhere to a false faith. This, in conjunction with point C, is heavily refutative of your plasticity argument; it is possible and likely that there are sects/denominations that have it right, but they may not be mainstream.

- E) That Christians who are saved cannot have radically differing understandings of what civil government should look like, and how Christians should interact with it. Much of these differences are due to differing views on the role of civil government. Calvin provided strong justification for using civil government to enforce moral regulations, but there are plenty of Christians who disagree with his argument; this is not, I think, an error of anti-salvific magnitude.

II) In my belief, many of these objections are resolvable with careful hermeneutics; I'm going to now attempt to provided some clarification/rebuttal/explanation on the issues you mentioned in your poast.

- A) There are multiple points within your first paragraph that merit response:

-- 1) This philosophy may be exemplary of mainstream liberal theology, but there are plenty of denominations that reject this philosophy. Moreover, there is an abundance of Scripture that indicates this view is likely at least partially incorrect.

-- 2) Conflating kindness to migrants with the acceptance of homosexuals and transsexuals is incorrect. These are discrete issues.

-- 3) Kindness to migrants has a plethora of Scriptural support.

-- 4) Kindness to homosexuals and transsexuals has Scriptural support in limited measures, however, this should not be construed to include governmental endorsement or inclusion into the Church without permanent repentance from these sins.

- B) Careful interpretation of Scripture should provide you the answer to these and other issues. (I see you're Catholic, so under your tradition you would be exhorted to consult tradition and orthodoxy as well.) It is incorrect to consider these issues without careful exegesis, and it is also wrong to simply accept a denominational platform "part-and-parcel" without checking it for Scriptural validity in each area. This paragraph seems to imply a binary dichotomy between liberal theology and conservative theology, when in fact there are likely errors in both that should be held under the microscope of Scripture. It is poor Christianity to accept at face value assertions made about Scriptural support for an issue; you have a responsibility to check because you have a moral responsibility to be as correct as you can be. In answer to the two issues you mentioned in your poast:

-- 1) There are varying answers on this, primarily contingent on two Scriptural questions: what is the Church's duty to Muslims (even violent ones), and what is the role of civil government? Thus, portraying this as having equivalent Scriptural support to the Crusades is incorrect; either one certainly has more or they aren't in conflict.

-- 2) Rigid sexual regulation is much clearer than the previous issue; nowhere in Scripture are homosexual or transsexual behaviors legitimized, and they are explicitly forbidden in several instances.

- C) I'll address both of your next two paragraphs in the next two points. I've already explained the issues with viewing theological paradigms as wholly binary; there can be errors in all. These are resolved through careful hermeneutics. However, new to your argument is the argument that Christianity is merely a conduit for other more powerful moral systems. I'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion from the above premises; unless one wholly rejects propitiatory atonement in favor of a works-based salvation or an inclusive pluralism, Christianity is still a virtually self-referential moral authority. There is no reliance on other moral systems without a clear rejection of the entire salvation doctrine. This is patently unScriptural, and should be rejected out of hand.

- D) Even assuming in arguendo that one were willing to wholly reject Christianity as a conduit for some other moral system, the systems that is could act as a conduit for lack basis without it; there is no good argument for the value of man or virtue of the type prescribed by Christianity without the Christian faith. Hence either one must reject all moral systems of that type, one must find basis for them outside of Christian doctrine, or one must accept Christianity.

- E) Here, I'll address your last sentence. You should arrive at your own philosophical and Scriptural justification for your faith independently of whether it is mainstream. Read Aquinas, Augustine, Leibniz, Hegel, Pascal, and others; most importantly, read Scripture and pray. You should not be shaken in faith by the heresy or apostasy of others unless it is inherently refutative of your own justifications for faith. Study Scripture and develop your own answers to this issue, rather than placing yourself in a binary dichotomy between worldviews.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692656)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:06 PM
Author: naked boiling water

smuckers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692668)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:18 PM
Author: Curious plaza main people

*highlights poster*

I will actually print this out and read it carefully

tyvm

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692754)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:47 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Absolutely. If you ever want to talk more, email me at myveryownzozothrowaway@gmail.com.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692963)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:48 PM
Author: topaz reading party

57893427590247692

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:50 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

All of these points are basically arguments over what shape of plastic not plasticity point directly.

Sure, "true" Christianity could be something other than how its been interpreted or applied or perceived by everyone at all times but isn't this just the justification for schisms rather than for the legitimacy of the faith itself?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693004)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:13 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

The inherent issue with plasticity that OP raises is the question of whether there can be two legitimately correct interpretations that contradict on fundamental principles. The issue is not whether people can disagree on interpretations; that's of course true, and simply means that some are wrong. The issue is whether that disagreement proves Scriptural contradiction, which it doesn't.

The legitimacy of the faith itself is another discussion entirely.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693224)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:27 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

No, he's specifically asking about the legitimacy of the faith in light of its apparent plasticity.

Your response, though well meaning, is simply to suggest more plasticity (though you wont acknowledge this).

EDIT: you are doing the "true Christianity is really beyond the ken of man to grasp" which when looked at carefully is tautological and means absolutely nothing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693321)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:30 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

Think he’s saying that the plasticity shouldn’t bother OP because the scripture can be read to be consistent and thus the opinions of others don’t matter. There does exist a true interpretation of the Bible and it’s up to OP to find it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693348)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:33 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

See my edited add-on above please.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693361)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:39 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

Humanity having been unable to grasp something so far —/—> humanity unable to grasp that thing.

I’m not religious and I don’t care to be so I can’t help OP, and I don’t know if the Bible is or is not consistent. But the original response to OP certainly is not just arguing for a “specific shape of the plasticity” like you originally stated. It’s offering OP a way to square christianity’s Plasticity with his faith, which was OP’s request.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693397)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:58 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

So Christianity is legit we just haven't been able to "do" it correctly yet?

Query: how does OP know when he's "doing it" correctly? Or close to doing it correctly?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693537)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:59 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

Idk ask a christmo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:01 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Even the "you just aren't doing it correctly and a goal of Christianity is to make you reach for the ineffable correct view" argument is very similar to just saying there are so many ways of applying it and the plasticity of its application suggests that its baloney.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693558)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:10 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

I already told you what the dude's argument is. you keep trying to fight straw men.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693615)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:14 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

No, I think I've spelled it out properly.

I'm not usually a straw man guy, particularly on this topic, where there are so many straw men arguments.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693641)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:23 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

Actually you’re right, I was just getting tired of the argument so skimmed the response. It’s not a straw man, It’s just that I don’t agree with the claim that the plasticity of Christianity’s application suggests that it’s baloney. There is either a correct interpretation or there is not, and the existence of a bunch of disparate interpretations doesn’t change that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693700)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:28 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Cr. I agree. So whats the correct interpretation?

"There's no Agreement," said in a ghosty voice.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693728)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 4:27 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34694637)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 4:32 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34694681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:20 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693676)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:50 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Precisely what I'm saying.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693485)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:59 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

So how is OP expected to find it when no one else has gotten it right yet. How does OP know when he's found it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693544)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:05 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Careful exegesis. It's important to understand that I'm NOT saying no one has found it; while I doubt perfect Christianity has been understood, I think people have gotten very close, and certainly close enough to understand salvation.

There is no way to achieve absolute certainty, but OP can study Scripture to the point that he has a degree of certainty about what Scripture says.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693583)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 2:13 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Did'nt biblical scholars do significant work on the problems even with transcribing parts of the biblical canon, much less agreeing as to what should be included and when? Should one learn greek and ancient semitic and all the other languages and go to old versions of the books of the bible first and then work out all the changes to the text? Is that part of what careful exegesis is? Or does the "spirit of the lord" guide them to read the text 'properly' in plain old English, particularly if they pray over it first?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693636)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 1:56 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

No, I'm not saying it's beyond man's grasp, but that it's quite possibly not practiced in the mainstream, hence the apparent dissonance between shifting mainstreams that OP references.

Far from beyond man's grasp, I think if it WERE beyond man's grasp, that would refute my argument, which is at least partially contingent on something closer to perfect Christianity than the mainstreams being practiced.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693533)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:21 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Okay, so "mainstream" whatever that means in the context of religion--"mainstream might not have it right but presumably it can be made right or gotten right and presumably some people have gotten it right before. Is that what you mean to say?

Maybe what you mean is there's a mainstream view of Christianity and theres a more esoteric or theologically, morally, ethically accurate view that is closer to the true spirit of the faith? Is that it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693692)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 1:27 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

he does address OP’s concern, but it does read like a law school exam answer where the number of arguments you come up with matters more than correctly and concisely answering the question

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:29 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Not really, because he's just sayig there's another way of looking at the religion other than how OP perceives it to be looked at by others. So that's just another alternative molding of the faith which looked at objectively only emphasizes its plasticity--the point that OP was making initially.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693338)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:31 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

Edited

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693353)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:02 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

I think you and OP are using plasticity differently - OP means that there is an apparent shift in correct Biblical interpretation; you seem to be using plasticity to mean open to several interpretations. The difference is that OP and I agree that for Scripture to be true, there must only be one correct interpretation. Thus, if correct interpretation can change, Scripture is faulty.

I'm arguing that the views he's looking at are both at least partially incorrect, and that rather than representing a shift in truth, they represent different misinterpretations of Scripture.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693564)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:05 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Yeah, I know what you are saying in the above response. You are saying they are both wrong. But that's just bananas if you are questioning the veracity of the religion overall because it just keeps sliding stuff out of reach. "Mystery" which you just ultimately have to accept on unexamined authority.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693586)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:11 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Ultimately, yes, there are parts of faith (and life as a whole, for that matter) that could be categorized as "mystery" about which there is uncertainty. However, I think that's a much smaller category than people think. Further, I think faith offers the best possible ontology to explain the world. I'm comfortable accepting there are some things I can't explain, but I think faith explains more than a lack of faith does.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693625)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:16 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

Well wait a minute. There's Msytery because we just don't know yet but we are well on the way to answering, and there's mystery which we will never know.

In Xty, too often mysteries of the former are confused w mysteries of the latter. If mystery of the latter, I'm just being asked not to think. And lots of harms come in when you are asked not to think and you don't think.

Please elaborate: "faith explains more than a lack of faith does"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693654)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 1:52 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

Wasn't meant that way, but I think that a thorough response is merited. I know that in my own life, I've wanted well warranted arguments for faith, and I think it's unkind not to provide them to someone that seems to be looking for them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693496)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:54 PM
Author: Curious plaza main people



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693513)



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Date: November 15th, 2017 1:54 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

I didn’t mean it too harshly and if the topic’s something that means a lot to you I see why you’d include more info

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693516)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:00 PM
Author: Curious plaza main people

What kind of church do you attend

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693547)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:09 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

I'm Presbyterian, currently working through my objections to Catholicism.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693604)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:11 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

make sure to get a good editor

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693624)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:12 PM
Author: Hairraiser insecure regret dilemma

seriously though

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693628)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:13 PM
Author: Dun twisted house

lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693632)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:02 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national

"It's unkind not to help someone sustain part of a harmful mass delusion when he's starting to bump up against its limitations," is another way of saying that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693567)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:58 PM
Author: glittery business firm cumskin



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693540)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:13 PM
Author: Comical disturbing kitty cat

Pretty accurate. My mind was slightly blown upon realizing the Christianity in the West was a collective of preceding pagan traditions and mores, namely cults of appollo. I know people get that Christmas, etc. were holidays before christ. But the extent the underlying ethos predates Christianity being grafted on top is more than people realize.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34692710)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 12:53 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693029)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:31 PM
Author: Peach corn cake stock car

Author was Einstein.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693355)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:32 PM
Author: Cocky casino pocket flask

yeah it's all bullshit lmao

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693360)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 1:33 PM
Author: aggressive sable quadroon national



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693365)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 15th, 2017 2:55 PM
Author: Shimmering box office

Try to be a good person and do nice things. Find a church that provides a supportive community. Don't worry about too much beyond that. Ultimately we're either elect or not, God was the original stats PhD, 50/50 shot.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3797932&forum_id=2#34693933)