Ryan tax plan makes grad school impossible
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: November 21st, 2017 9:48 AM Author: Vivacious hell
Nbd just one less mechanism for moving up in the world. These UNCbrats need to pay their fair share
https://www.wired.com/story/grad-students-are-freaking-out-about-the-gops-tax-plan-they-should-be/
Grad Students Are Freaking Out About the GOP Tax Plan. They Should Be
Donald Trump speaks with reporters about his proposed tax reform plan.
Alex Edelman/Alamy
Amanda Coston was preparing for a meeting with her advisor Monday afternoon when her friend, another first-year PhD student in Carnegie Mellon's machine learning department, knocked on her door. Had she seen the email? A few minutes earlier, the university's Graduate Student Assembly had sent a Google Doc to department representatives across the university, and those reps had forwarded the document to their grad students.
That document, which you can see for yourself here, details the devastating impact the GOP's recently unveiled tax-reform plan could have on the university's PhD candidates. Buried in that plan is a proposed repeal that would cause graduate students' tuition waivers to be counted as income—making them subject to taxes. The document analyzes how the repeal would affect graduate students in colleges across Carnegie Mellon.
It's pretty bleak.
The annual stipend for a PhD student in Carnegie Mellon's school of computer science is about $32,400. The university covers the student's $43,000 tuition, in exchange for the research she conducts and the courses she teaches. Under current law, the government taxes only a student’s stipend; the waived tuition is not taken into account. But under the GOP bill, her annual taxable income would rise from $32,400 to $76,234. Even factoring in new deductions also included in the proposal, the CMU document estimates her taxes would amount to $10,209 per year—nearly four times the amount under current law. That would slash her net annual stipend by 25 percent, from $29,566 to $22,191.
"It was just such a shock," says Coston, who expects her degree will take another five years to complete. If the repeal were to become law, it would take effect in 2018–2019. "It really changes the calculus on my finances. This suddenly makes a lot of things like rent, car payments, groceries, all that stuff, no longer affordable."
And not just for her. Current and would-be graduate students fear that, were the bill to pass, getting a PhD in the US could become financially impossible. "I monitor all legislation at the state and federal levels that could affect graduate and professional students, and this is just—this would have the greatest negative impact of anything I've seen," says Samantha Hernandez, legislative director of the National Association of Graduate-Professional Students. "It would be devastating."
For years, PhD candidates have "paid" for their educations almost exclusively through research and teaching—working in labs, TAing courses, hosting office hours. It works like an apprenticeship: Trade five years of your life learning and working in a field that interests you in exchange for a meager, but livable, salary. "The point is to be stressed about class work and research—not finances," Coston says. Fewer than 10 percent of PhD candidates in STEM fields rely primarily on their own money to pay for grad school; and in 2015, more than three-quarters graduated with no debt. (At least from their graduate programs; plenty of graduate students complete their PhDs burdened with debt from their undergrad years.)
But removing the promise of a living wage would dramatically affect people's ability to pursue a graduate degree. "I think we'd see a shift in who even starts such a program," says UT Austin computational biologist Claus Wilke, who also blogs on the subject of professional development in academia. A graduate education would quickly become something you pursue only if you can pay for it.
That's a bad message to send to anyone driven to learn and innovate. You want talented people to study and contribute to what they're passionate about—not what they can afford. "The people who were doing it for the love of science, or who were excited about going into teaching, or even because they have a lucrative career in mind—they may just decide they can't do it," Wilke says.
The GOP's plan would also affect what PhDs do once they leave their graduate programs. PhDs are already less likely to go into academia than they once were, and a tax burden could compound the trend. Academic gigs can't compete with industry jobs on salary, and they have a reputation for being less stable, Hernandez says, which leads people to pursue what she calls "alternative academic routes."
In other words: The more debt students graduate with, the less likely they are to pursue relatively low-paying or financially risky jobs—in academia and elsewhere. That means fewer educated people teaching, experimenting, and innovating at research institutions, sure, but in other places, too. "Right now you can graduate debt free and work for the government, non profits, start your own company—you get to choose. But if you’ve accumulated a lot of debt, most students are going to look at high paying jobs that’ll let them pay off debt," Coston says.
Many academics fear the tax burden would waylay efforts to increase social and intellectual diversity at their institutions. "You have to advocate for folks who are coming down the pipeline," says UCLA neuroscientist Astra Bryant. She says that's especially true of women and underrepresented minorities. "I mentor two underprivileged undergraduate women, and my concern for them is that an increased tax burden would make it financially impossible for them to afford to pursue a PhD."
And what's bad for grad students is bad for universities. PhD students are a linchpin of the undergraduate education model. When they're not conducting research, they're teaching classes, grading tests, and holding office hours. "And to be frank, at this point, they're cheaper than adjunct professors," Hernandez says. "You start removing them, and innovation, research, education—all of those things start to slow down. So there's a huge impact on higher education as a whole."
Not all PhDs would be affected equally.1 "Tuition waiver" is not a legal term but a colloquial one used to describe several scenarios outlined in Section 117 of the US tax code. That section treats scholarships and fellowship grants (described in subsections a—c) differently from tuition reductions (described in subsection d). The GOP's tax plan would leave the first three subsections alone but repeal the provision on tuition reductions. An estimated 145,000 graduate students benefit from these reductions, some 60 percent of them in STEM fields.
Furthermore, a document similar to the one circulated by Carnegie Mellon's GSA is making the rounds at UC Berkeley, a public institution. That document estimates that the GOP's proposal would increase tax burdens for students at public schools by 30 to 60 percent, compared to the several-hundred-percent increase seen by private school students who pay higher tuitions.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738546) |
Date: November 21st, 2017 9:49 AM Author: Navy telephone
Can't universities like CMU just reduce PhD tuition for everyone to $1? And make TAing or RAing a required part of the program? It's not like anyone's actually paying the tuition price anyway.
Seems like just an accounting issue.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738555) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:02 AM Author: Out-of-control Mexican Idiot
"I have absolutely no data but I totally remember that at some places (which I won't name) some Ph.Ds got paid more than non-Ph.Ds."
Oh what amazing explanation. Anecdotes are useless in this case, because they can always be countered. Google "CS PHD salary" and one of the top results is this guy who basically says a Ph.D has little value in private industry besides a small salary bump over a masters:
http://blog.vivekhaldar.com/post/29296581613/what-is-life-like-for-phds-in-computer-science-who
Of course some Ph.Ds get great jobs. Some become professors, too. What matters is the overall picture, which is that most of them are targeting academia but not getting it (hence the high no-jerb/postdoc stats). With CS they can at least get industry jobs, but it's not obvious they get much better jobs than people with a masters or simply many extra years of work experience.
And keep in mind that if you're smart enough to get into a legit Ph.D program, you're probably smarter than the average undergrad and therefore could expect to beat the average result from simply entering the workforce.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739094)
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:20 AM Author: Mind-boggling orchestra pit international law enforcement agency
Unless they're seeking some very specific skill, most of those industry and finance jobs also hire very bright undergrads.
If you're the kind of person who can get an offer from BIGTECH, a top startup, quant hedge funds, whatever out of undergrad, doing a PhD is pointless.
And if you can't get those jobs then, you won't get one armed with a PhD either. Their interviews are effectively IQ tests.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739220) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:22 AM Author: Out-of-control Mexican Idiot
I didn't say it was "a scam like law school." I used law school as an analogy to relate the fact that individual success stories don't prove the whole program is legitimate. Work on your logical reasoning, bub.
Also, literally any scammy academic program, even in the humanities, could be described as a "calculated risk" for "a shot at academia." What matters is that academia is getting more costly (directly or indirectly, via taking longer, etc) while having declining upside. Even you should agree that a CS Ph.D is a worse bet than it was a decade ago.
And to take a step back, I initially just described "grad school" writ large as a scam. You're the one obsessively focusing on CS, which I've already acknowledged as the least scammy Ph.D right now. The fact that even CS shows scammy trends should be extremely worrisome.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739232) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:13 AM Author: Mind-boggling orchestra pit international law enforcement agency
It's much less than you'd think, especially if you compare cohorts where both could have completed a PhD.
CS PhD probably makes more than some mediocre CS BS from a bad school, but no better than an MIT/Stanford/CMU/etc. BS with experience. In fact I bet the PhD makes even less than his elite BS peers because PhDs tend to scoff at boring "commercial" work that can pay more.
The main reason people do PhDs is so they can work on more interesting research roles like machine learning or creating new programming languages.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739169) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:30 AM Author: Mind-boggling orchestra pit international law enforcement agency
Seems like the schools can solve this by reducing graduate school tuition costs for research programs, having grants go directly to departments instead of students, etc.
Also not really sure why someone receiving something of value in exchange for labor shouldn't pay tax in the first place.
I'd rather have this policy and let government subsidize actually useful PhDs later instead of giving a tax cut to Feminist & Queer Theory Studies types.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739303) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 10:04 AM Author: bateful rebellious idea he suggested new version
humanities/social science phds aren't the majority of degrees being awarded
breaking up the humanities scam should be the least of our worries considering how small the problem is. if people want to throw their lives away at an English PhD who cares? making life harder for STEM phds in no way benefits society. It's a monumentally stupid fucking idea.
Plus this would deter the more savvy students, not the idiots willing to take out loans
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738679) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 10:33 AM Author: bateful rebellious idea he suggested new version
Except it's still cheaper to go to an Ivy at full finaid even being taxed than a state school. It would change nothing in the case of undergrad beyond taxing college students on scholarships.
This is literally nothing but a money grab in an area he thought would go unnoticed.
LOL at your pipe dream that this tax is what lowers the cost of education. It won't, at all, it will only spike the cost for people receiving tuition assistance.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738869) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 10:50 AM Author: Navy telephone
I think would more likely just result in proportionally fewer people getting aid at private colleges.
I'm just not seeing the problem here. We have an income tax. If you agree to receive some money, for whatever reason, that money gets taxed.
The only reason this is an issue is because we have a stupid system where colleges are inflating their prices for some people, while for others, pretending to charge them inflated prices and then paying it right back to them tax-free due to the current loophole. If they want to price-discriminate, there at least shouldn't be tax incentives for it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738994) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:15 AM Author: Pink very tactful gaming laptop kitchen
lol, so we should have a glut instead of sorely unprepared people doing "just start a business!!!"?
unlike a JD a STEM PhD actually is a door opener. you can do finance, VC, law, all kinds of shit. and when the boomers finally die off, academic and research jobs will return.
deterring this is just pandering to the dumb, white base. "AHM NOT SMART ENUFFF FOR THIS SSSO U CANT DO IT EIVER!"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739182) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 11:33 AM Author: Out-of-control Mexican Idiot
Flawed in several respects:
1. There's no obvious reason to believe people are "sorely unprepared" with only a BA, or well-prepared because they have a Ph.D. If UG education is that useless it's a crisis in its own right, because expecting ppl to attend school until they're 30 to have a good career is absurd.
2. Not getting a Ph.D does not imply the only alternative is "just start a business."
3. The Boomers are dying off right now, and thanks to the glut of Ph.Ds they are being replaced by low-paid contingent faculty, many of whom work only part time: https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/Faculty_Trends_0.pdf
4. Of course a STEM Ph.D can get jobs in various fields. But so can a smart BA holder who actually plans out what he wants to do.
Generically promoting "more education" in all cases is how we created this preposterous inefficient system in the first place.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34739336) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 9:59 AM Author: Slate Odious Sanctuary Community Account
Yes, because the government “access to education” free money machine has inflated college tuition to a point that stopped making sense even 15 years ago. It’s a government backed bubble which won’t pop until government stops funneling them the juice
The idea that education is the ticket to upward mobility stopped being true several years ago. We need a correction, and a correction always hurts.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738639)
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Date: November 21st, 2017 10:19 AM Author: Stimulating soggy tanning salon background story
1. Lower grad school tuition to something reasonable like 10k.
2. If the labor of your grad students is so essential, use your multibillion dollar hedge fund called an endowment to pay them a salary, out of which they can pay the taxes.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34738767) |
Date: November 21st, 2017 2:47 PM Author: fuchsia shrine private investor
Doctorates as a vehicle for social mobility are DEMENTED BOOMER FLAME -- at least with respect to Americans. What they're really used for is to circumvent the immigration system and to promote the DEMENTED BOOMER MYTH that Americans are unskilled and should be replaced en masse with cheaper, smarter workers from India (74% literacy rate), Guatemala (75% literacy rate), etc.
Of course, while there are a lot of Indians, etc., and some of them are indeed very smart, their numbers and brain advantages aren't enough to explain their DOMINANCE of the TTT STEM Ph.D scene. For example, check out the industrial engineering department at Lehigh:
http://ise.lehigh.edu/phd-students
There is not one single white (or black) American graduate student in the entire Ph.D program. And I'd be willing to be money that 90-100% of the people listed on this page are not US citizens at all. Are they the best that the world has to offer? Well, maybe -- but, as an old boss (an Indian Lehigh engineering Ph.D) told me, US citizens shouldn't bother with a Ph.D the way he had because in his case, it gave him 6 more years to get hired, but it wasn't worth the tiny pink salary bump.
Most STEM Ph.Ds (and after all, 90% are TTT) simply ABUSE cheap foreign graduate students with harsh working conditions, low pay and little mobility. The foreigners are willing to put up with it because they can earn 4-5x more here than they would as engineering grads back home. Meanwhile, American STEMbros correctly calculate that a masters is they most they'll ever need.
Don't fall for REVOLTING BOOMER FLAME about putting MORE AMERICANS IN STEM. Graduate work in STEM is largely FREE LABOR for universities and allows universities and industry to collude in PUSHING DOWN THE MARKET WAGE so that they can capture VIRTUALLY ALL THE VALUE CREATED BY RESEARCH, leaving the share to labor to be a pittance on the level of what a McDonalds manager makes. FUCK BOOMERS AND THE STEM PH.D TROLL IN THIS THREAD.
For another take on this issue from a physics prof, please see here. http://katz.fastmail.us/scientist.html
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34740846) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 3:06 PM Author: fuchsia shrine private investor
"Those are anecdotes and of course you’re free to disagree. I could find hundreds of examples of stem PhDs happy with their outcome."
You didn't like statistics upthread, now you don't like my links (including to a lengthy essay by a physics prof who's seen it first hand). It seems that no evidence suffices for you. But let's get more systematic about the back-door immigration question:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students
"[F]oreign students make up the majority of enrollments in U.S. graduate programs in many STEM fields, accounting for 70.3 percent of all full-time graduate students in electrical engineering, 63.2 percent in computer science, 60.4 percent in industrial engineering, and more than 50 percent in chemical, materials and mechanical engineering, as well as in economics (a non-STEM field)."
This striking stat calls out for an explanation. In case you're unfamiliar with the pervasive abuse of H-1B visaholders, this has been extensively discussed in mainstream sources (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/), and in case you're unfamiliar with the green card system, employment (as a first- or second-priority foreign national) is the main way to get a green card if you don't already have family in the USA.
There is not actually a STEM shortage in the USA (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/) so the prevalence of foreign students can't be explained that way either. It's merely scab intellectual labor.
"But if you really believe this is a “problem” the solution is not to tax 27 yo grad students on $70k worth of income they never received."
Why shouldn't universities true them up if the students' work is so valuable? If universities aren't willing to do so, that shows that the universities just wanted cheap labor, which shouldn't surprise anyone who's been following the systematic shift to part-time, zero-benefits adjuncting.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34741037) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 4:45 PM Author: fuchsia shrine private investor
"just trying to keep you honest"
Your concern for my honesty is appreciated. As you might imagine I have some concerns about yours also ;) I guess you're just not going to talk about suppression of the market price for researchers, so I'll consider that point conceded.
"All of this has a simple solution, lower the number of foreigners receiving student visas."
Can't believe this racism here! I'm not saying foreign students shouldn't come -- I love foreigners, they're tremendous! -- I'm just saying that universities should pay market prices for their labor, and neither allow (i) credential purchasing via charging full tuition to overseas students, nor (ii) use of student slave labor in lieu of tuition, nor (iii) back-door deflation of the values of STEM credentials for Americans -- that last, something I'd have thought that someone purporting to be concerned about American STEM students would have cared more about. If the universities are purporting to bestow a credential, they should be taxed on the value transferred. And if they're bestowing something else, like an immigration benefit, let them make that argument.
"The point is to make it look on paper like they’re making up for the deficit created by the other cuts."
Agree, this is political theater. I approve mainly because I think universities' sancrosanct positions should be rattled.
As for your last sentence, I'm going to ignore your lapse into paranoid ranting if you'd like to edit it out ;)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34742033) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 5:12 PM Author: fuchsia shrine private investor
Right. Because you're just ranting about your personal preferences
You haven't addressed:
Most degrees are flame
Back door immigration
Glut of STEM degrees
Use of foreign grad students as scab labor
These are all key to evaluating how STEM salaries are set, the motivating commitments of institutions, the real function of the Ph.D today, the degree to which a Ph.D is beneficial and if so for what and in what tier, etc. That seems more important to me than posting zillions of times about a CMU machine learning masters.
If you want to get responsive yourself, feel free. Otherwise, good talk, later.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34742301) |
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Date: November 21st, 2017 5:22 PM Author: Vivacious hell
For the record, I’ve already addressed all this.
1) the solution here seems to be to tax the hell out of all grad students, useless or not. I think that’s retarded.
2) I directly addressed this. Fewer immigrants. Easy
3) the “glut” wouldn’t be a problem if we addressed the immigration issue, but you don’t want to do that directly because it’s “racists”. Lol!
4) already addressed!! But we can’t talk about immigration because of your FEELS.
The root problem of all of this is immigration, which you refuse to discus. Better to just tax grad students and the American stem academy out of existence. Americans don’t need to do stupid shit like “research”. So yeah just buzz off.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34742414) |
Date: November 21st, 2017 9:00 PM Author: indigo cracking locale
as a former EE grad student who got $$$$ and never had to pay a single cent for my education (UG + grad school) I am OK with this as long as there is a carve out for real STEM majors
Even if there is no carve out I dont agree with the sky is falling rhetoric. Schools would just adjust the stipend to account for this increased tax burden and this will only fuck up bullshit majors like lib arts anyway. Most STEM grad students should be OK as they are funded by institutions with deep pockets (industry like goog/MS/FB, DARPA, Ford, DoD etc) who should be able to soften the blow by adjusting the stipend
so i rate this as a 170 move by GOP. fuck all the gender/ethnic studies PhD students
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3804552&forum_id=2#34744378) |
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