Front page WaPo: I froze my eggs but my plan ultimately failed
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Date: January 28th, 2018 1:52 PM Author: galvanic olive locus depressive
late 30s woman brilliantly freezes eggs so that she can get them fertilized by the alpha jacked stud of her dreams when she isn't so busy with her career
gets a cover story titled "FREEZE YOUR EGGS, FREE YOUR CAREER" on businessweek a few years later
doesn't find mr right, just goes donor at 45
but she is 45 so it failed, in part because half the embryos were retards since she did this at 38 or whatever
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35260620) |
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Date: January 28th, 2018 3:14 PM Author: Ultramarine messiness
Here's what she said in the story, but yeah I doubt she cared when she did it. She was high on taking charge of her reproduction.
First, she said she learned that the fertility industry is very “cagey” about providing data on success rates. “It’s easy for them to say there isn’t data right now. And really there is. There is some data. It’s just not pretty data,” she said.
Individual clinics are often reluctant to share their own information, she said, and many don’t refer patients to academic studies that attempt to quantify the probability of success. Only a few such studies exist: A 2016 Fertility and Sterility study of 137 women who tried to use their frozen eggs found that women who froze 10 eggs at the age of 36 faced a 30 percent likelihood of achieving a live birth. Last year, researchers writing in Human Reproduction calculated that the same women should have a 60 percent success rate based on their mathematical model.
Brigitte Adams goes through the paperwork for her egg freezing, IVF and other fertility procedures and treatments. (Carolyn Van Houten/The Washington Post)
Second, Adams said many clinics sell women on a single egg retrieval procedure without mentioning that more may be needed to harvest enough eggs to produce a successful pregnancy. This is what happened with Adams. When she recently reviewed her tests, she said they clearly showed that her fertility already had been in decline, suggesting that she would need more than 11 eggs to conceive. The lack of advice was “unconscionable,” she said. “I was never told that x, y and z were a possibility.”
While she is still a proponent of egg freezing, Adams said women need to be better educated about the possible outcomes, including the bad ones, and the industry needs to be more transparent.
“We are only seeing half the story, which is a very optimistic story,” she said. “But, really, you need to see both.”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35261172) |
Date: January 28th, 2018 1:53 PM Author: arrogant weed whacker genital piercing
"‘Why me?’ ‘What did I do wrong?’"
I believe you attempted to have children 20 years past your prime.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35260627) |
Date: January 28th, 2018 2:17 PM Author: Obsidian Trip Box Office Wagecucks
Then there is MeiMei Fox. After the 44-year-old Honolulu-based writer got married, she tried to use her frozen eggs. The whole batch of 18 was destroyed while being shipped from one clinic to another.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35260789) |
Date: January 28th, 2018 3:05 PM Author: Ultramarine messiness
"But that painful March day, when the last of her frozen eggs failed to produce a pregnancy, Adams said she realized how one-sided the conversation about egg freezing had been, and how little information was available about what she calls “part two” — when you actually try to use those eggs to get pregnant."
Gee it's almost like women impulsively jumped into this and literally put all their eggs in one very attractive but poorly tested basket.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35261114) |
Date: January 28th, 2018 4:02 PM Author: adventurous hissy fit
WGWAG
In 2008, Lee was 37 and starting to think about children just as egg freezing was taking off. She had been dating a great guy she met at the McLean Bible Church and, despite their different backgrounds — he is a Korean American engineer and entrepreneur, she is a Hungarian-German-Irish nurse from a military family — they seemed to click. But she was in Seattle and he was in Virginia, which made their future somewhat iffy.
Carolyn Goerig Lee embraces David Lee, 2, while Clara Lee and Michael Lee, both 4, play at their home in Haymarket, Va. (Carolyn Van Houten/The Washington Post)
https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2018/01/CVH_8171.jpg&w=1484
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35261452) |
Date: January 29th, 2018 3:55 AM Author: exciting bipolar regret
Women are ofc highly impressionable by social convention and prestigious sanction. In a functioning society we would not leave the socialization and imprinting of women to a (((marketplace))) of flame.
Sad.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35266445) |
Date: January 29th, 2018 7:52 AM Author: fear-inspiring dashing library rigpig
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
In an age when egg freezing has become so popular that hip employers such as Apple and Facebook cover it as a perk
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35266780) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 9:37 AM Author: Ultramarine messiness
lol wut?
*Doesn't want to live a lie*
*Convinces self that harvesting and freezing eggs at 39 is a good idea*
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35267065) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 10:30 AM Author: lime patrolman
I'm confused. I always thought "Get Thee..." was female.
Your question assumes that given less options, women would feel like they're settling for a guy. I think it's more likely that the better opportunity is extremely deceptive since a woman can have a much bigger pool of potential sexual/romantic partners than marriage partners. Many women aren't very good at distinguishing the difference hence their disillusionment in their mid-to-late 30s over why none of these guys she's dated and fucked panned out.
This mistake is costly for both men and women hence men's bitterness at this folly. For the reasons already mentioned, yes, it's costly for women who wait to long to have a baby. But it's also costly for the men who would've otherwise married these women because now they're left with used up, bitter, and jaded women who have had too many failed relationships to ever fully trust a man or be vulnerable again, oh and they're infertile.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35267366) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 1:54 PM Author: arrogant weed whacker genital piercing
No. It's *an* issue.
Other issues:
1. Even if you find someone who meets your minimum requirements, you can hold out for someone who is better. That isn't aversion to settling. That's a maximizing vs. satisficing issue.
2. Even if you find someone who meets your minimum requirements (or is perfect), you might wait for another person because you have other values (e.g., career advancement, eat pray love).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35268879) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 1:14 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
5-6 years ago, probably fewer than 2000 people had tried to conceive with frozen eggs if I had to guesstimate based on that chart (which shows freezings, not thawings). It looks like as late as 2009, there were only like 500 people per year freezing their eggs.
Regardless, it's idiotic to expect her to know the risks, and i take her at her word that doctors gave her a false sense of the ease of conception with frozen eggs.
And plenty of 40-year-old women conceive naturally. I can't believe I'm the one defending the subject of the article, but you're being way too harsh.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35268534)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 2:20 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
you're just rehashing the same thing to which i already responded. everyone knows that fertility declines, which is why they're freezing their eggs. as one of the first few people to try this, it's not like there was a ton of research she could read.
there's no way for a layperson to know, especially as one of the first few thousand people to even try to conceive with frozen eggs, whether 10 or 20 or 50 is enough, so we rely on advice from doctors. unless you think she's lying about the medical advice she received, it's hard to see why you're being so harsh.
also, lol at your incoherence - "numbers don't matter, everyone knows old women are less fertile" "evidence of 40-year old women conceiving is anecdotal"
yeah, she probably took it too far by becoming an advocate for egg freezing without any real medical background beyond what her doctors told her, but that's a totally separate issue.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269082) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:10 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
did you even read the article?
Second, Adams said many clinics sell women on a single egg retrieval procedure without mentioning that more may be needed to harvest enough eggs to produce a successful pregnancy. This is what happened with Adams. When she recently reviewed her tests, she said they clearly showed that her fertility already had been in decline, suggesting that she would need more than 11 eggs to conceive. The lack of advice was “unconscionable,” she said. “I was never told that x, y and z were a possibility.”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269415)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:22 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
lol. okay. just do interpret your own medical tests instead of relying on your doctor to do it for you.
you should reread this exchange to see how ridiculous you sound.
and you have to choose to be very cynical to think she did this to sell a bloomberg story.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269500) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 5:28 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
By googling for literally 10 min? You can find stats on how many embryos make it after genetic testing and implantation. Eggs are more unstable than embryos and using embryos has a baseline for chances gives you an idea. The overall national average for ivf success for women at 40 is about 20-30% (took 30 secs on google to find this). She can’t use this stat and her own test results to gauge the success of eggs making it? These stats were available 5 years ago too.
How would I know that if a woman is interested in freezing eggs, she should do it before 35 and get at least 20 if she wants at least one child? I didn’t have my eggs frozen and no doctor told me this. But I have something called common sense and basic reading comp skills to interpret stats and test results.
Why on earth would anybody not even do some basic research on publicly available info before to do egg retrieval? Again this is not a new technology and has been around for decades.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35270696) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 5:39 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
i asked you how she would determine if she needs 10, 20, 50, or 100.
you just told me at least 20, but you didn't tell me how to calculate that figure based on your stupid google search, nor, more importantly, did you tell me how the average for a 40-year-old woman undergoing IVF would be applicable to someone freezing her eggs, nor, most importantly, did you tell me how to adjust the shit you find on google to account for her specific situation.
you seem totally unhinged. I don't even think you believe your own bullshit at this point.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35270820) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 6:35 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
No, I think it’s this woman’s responsibility to tell her doc what her goals are. Many egg freezing candidates do so as an insurance policy and plan to conceive naturally. For those people, getting max numbers of eggs is not crucial. If she’d been clear that she’s counting on these eggs to get her close to 100% chance of a pregnancy, I’m sure her doc would’ve recommended more than one cycle. But likely she didn’t have the money for 2-3 cycles so the doc said let’s start with this one, see how
many eggs you get go from there. And who knows what happened after the first cycle but the doc doesn’t have a duty to follow up in a few months and tell her “you should really do another cycle,” esp when this is an elective procedure.
I don’t think you understand what taking advantage, financially or otherwise, in this situation where this is an elective procedure. First, egg retrieval is difficult on the body and many docs will not allow back to back cycles due to the drugs. If anything, taking advantage of a woman in that situation is to say “ you need to do more cycles to get more eggs” since they get more money that way. But 10 eggs is a respectable number. We have no idea what happened after she did her first cycle but I’m willing to bet she did zero follow-up and zero research before she started publishing about it acting as if she’d succeeded.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35271361) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 6:40 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
"No, I think it’s this woman’s responsibility to tell her doc what her goals are."
lolwut? like, showing up and saying, "i want to freeze my eggs" isn't enough? you think it's on her to specify to the doctor that she might want to use these frozen eggs to conceive?
your "insurance" argument is incoherent. what good is insurance if it's unlikely to work when needed?
you are inventing facts to buttress your argument. she specifically said no one ever told her that 11 eggs might not be enough.
maybe the doctor should have said, "you're a bad candidate for this." doing the procedure, collecting the money, and either knowing that it was unlikely to work or not caring whether it was likely to work is taking advantage.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35271424)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 7:05 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
Showing up and saying you want to freeze your eggs isn’t enough because people do it for different reasons. The “insurance” policy is when people plan on never using them because they plan on conceiving naturally with a partner. Its the same way people never want to use their car insurance. It’s not up to the doctor to figure out what your ultimate goal is or the doctor’s job to track you down 3 months after your first cycle to tell you to do another one. It’s not the same as prescribing a drug.
We only have this woman’s side of the story and not the doctor’s and based on my experience with various fertility docs, they never overpromise. You say I’m making up facts but I have a lot more experience and knowledge that you in this area and any woman who is of a certain age and concerned with her fertility cannot be as ignorant as she claims to be, particularly in the age of the internet. I do not trust her version of the events and find it incredibly hard to believe that a doctor misled her about her chances. She only heard what she wanted to hear because she was so focused on crafting her success story.
It’s clear I’m not going to convince you otherwise but a woman who wasted her prime fertile years who undoubtedly rejected a bunch of men who would be perfectly good marriage partners and encouraged other women to delay child bearing doesn’t need any sympathizers.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35271705) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 7:08 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
it would be totally irrational to freeze enough eggs for an e.g., 30% chance of success, as an insurance policy. i'm shocked you'd even argue that.
i agree that we only have one side of the story which is why i have repeatedly added the caveat that i'm assuming she's telling the truth.
you're not going to convince me, and even though i'd probably never be friends with this woman, it's her doctor's fault for either misleading her or treating her improperly.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35271755) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:23 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
laypeople are not typically capable of interpreting medical tests.
do you think there was a test that said, "YOU NEED TO FREEZE 50 EGGS FOR A 90% CHANCE OF A LIVE BIRTH" at the top?
This is why rely on (licensed) doctors instead of reddit.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269517) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:44 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
this is absurd.
of course she can read it and see what's out of range. the issue is interpreting it, which i would not expect her to be able to do (especially back then when freezing/thawing/conceiving was still very new).
just like i could read a sperm count test, but i can't tell you how my results translate to likelihood of conception in a particular timeframe. that's why these tests are ordered and delivered to doctors.
i mean, if you think she's a fucking liar, then fine, but you have to make that assumption to see her as culpable in this situation, and I do not think there is any evidence of that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269730)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 4:07 PM Author: Ultramarine messiness
"This test says normal cholesterol is under 200. Mine is 250. Should I be worried?"
This is a normal question when interpreting a medical test. She doesn't indicate that any kind of conversation like that was had.
I had an elective procedure done once (not plastic surgery). I had to read, initial, and sign multiple forms laying out the risks, including that the procedure didn't work. As I read, I asked the doctor "how often does x happen? What's the worst issue you've had with a patient? What is most common and what is the usual outcome?" etc. She either had that conversation or she didn't, but she certainly doesn't indicate that she tried to.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269963) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 2:56 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
cannot believe how dense you are (or are trying to be).
why wouldn't she take her doctors' advice at face value? because "nutella" knows better?
unless you think she is lying, it's her doctor's fault for not properly advising her.
but please, do tell me how she should have known the appropriate number of eggs to freeze in this situation. or is your view that she should have known this would fail no matter what her doctors said?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269346) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:18 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
“Second, Adams said many clinics sell women on a single egg retrieval procedure without mentioning that more may be needed to harvest enough eggs to produce a successful pregnancy. This is what happened with Adams. When she recently reviewed her tests, she said they clearly showed that her fertility already had been in decline, suggesting that she would need more than 11 eggs to conceive. The lack of advice was “unconscionable,” she said. “I was never told that x, y and z were a possibility.”
So let me get this straight. Her test results “clearly” show that her fertility is in decline and instead of seeing that as an indication that she needs more eggs to up her odds or ask questions about how realistic this is, she decided to go ahead anyway. This isn’t even like law school career services lied to her about employment stats, she just ignored the results in the first place.
Also fertility clinics are required to report IVF success rates and she can easily search those on the internet. Pretending she was never told “x y z was never a possibility” when there is so much info out there is just a function of her being bitter in retrospect that her story did not work out in the way she wanted.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269472) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:25 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
JFC i'm responding to this same idiotic argument above. laypeople are not generally capable of interpreting their test results and so rely on doctors.
i am certain that the test did not say, "YOU NEED TO FREEZE 50 EGGS TO ACHIEVE A 90% LIKELIHOOD OF A LIVE BIRTH" in big bold letters at the top.
of course, the postmortem is different from the original exam.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269542) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 4:03 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
What the hell are you saying?
The state of tort law is such that your average doctors always hedge and always under promise. Particularly for fertility docs, the stats for success rates through ivf are published so they can’t inflate outcomes even if they wanted to.
Thing is, the women in the article can’t really have it both ways. They can’t really portray themselves as intelligent, educated women in charge of their fertility and then turn around and be vulnerable victimized women who were preyed upon by unscrupulous fertility doctors.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269920)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 4:04 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
excuse me while i hire a medial doctor to represent me in a slip and fall case.
yes, a smart, capable person can be a victim of an unscrupulous doctor (or lawyer or building contractor or landlord or whatever). ESPECIALLY in situations like this. that's why we have regulatory bodies for professionals.
you sound absolutely absurd and unhinged.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269938) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 4:24 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
A smart capable person can be a victim of an unscrupulous doctor.
Is this a situation where this happened. Absolutely not. Egg retrieval is not a new technology since IVF has been around forever, fertility stats are well known, fertility testing results are easily interpreted.
I’m not sure why you feel a need to defend affluent, educated women who have delayed childbearing thinking they can just relay on technology later in life.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35270110) |
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Date: January 29th, 2018 4:33 PM Author: Unholy philosopher-king whorehouse
i'm defending this particular woman in this particular case because the evidence i see suggests she was not culpable for her failure to conceive successfully, and it seems like you and most of the other people here are unfairly maligning her for some reason.
at base, it seems this is a case where she was ill-advised by her doctors.
i don't think that people should be responsible for interpreting labs and second-guessing their doctors' advice, which is what you have to believe if you accept that she isn't lying and you think she's at fault.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35270161)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 3:32 PM Author: Cerebral Nighttime Skinny Woman Church Building
Except the 5% per cycle does not stay steady through 12 cycles when you go from 40 to 41 the way your chances stay steady when you’re 30 to 31. And assuming youre not miscarriage-pwned, you are at much higher risk to have a child with genetic issues in your 40s. You can screen for downs but not other stuff.
It’s a disservice for feminism to sell to women that you can have perfectly healthy children well into your 40s. Even if you can have healthy kids, parenting young children is physically exhausting. Old parents don’t have the energy. Women should really be done with having children by 35. 30 is better but I understand that is not realistic given career and financial considerations nowadays. It doesn’t help women to be delusional about their fertility.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269592)
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Date: January 29th, 2018 12:06 PM Author: galvanic olive locus depressive
"educated and intelligent" people are more likely to use their ~intelligence~ to improvise reasons to believe things they wish to be true. all you need is a social context that encourages that (by tabooing the sharing of unpleasant realities).
freezing your eggs before 35 requires at least some amount of non-delusion. women who are 30, who are inclined to try and predict what the next five years of their dating lives will be like (already a minority) just assume it'll be like the last 5 years, only somehow mysteriously better (because they know themselves, know what they want now, whatever other dumb cliches they hear from daytime TV to replace "magic")
IME the only women freezing eggs at 30 (the correct time) usually have serious (often unwarranted) self-esteem issues and so are excessively paranoid about foreveralone/fetal-death, or some other psychological tics that make them simply not operate mentally like "normal people" (autism, ironically). normal 30 year olds, no matter how smart, do NOT think about this shit
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35268035) |
Date: January 29th, 2018 11:45 AM Author: Chestnut Heady Reading Party Roommate
She really shouldn't be an old, single mother anyway. For a bunch of reasons.
Also, anyone waiting this long wasn't exactly making this her primary life goal anyway. And I say this as someone who has delayed forever himself.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35267866) |
Date: January 29th, 2018 2:37 PM Author: lime patrolman
This is exactly the reason why promiscuity had historically been discouraged by society. Both men and women policed women for slutty behavior because society recognized this would be the end result. Men frowned upon the Lotharios and seducers as well, though secretly envious, they recognized seducing young women was harmful to society due to the after effects.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3873872&forum_id=2#35269215)
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