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Ben Stein gapes libs on AR-15s
Poast new message in this thread
Date: February 21st, 2018 11:38 AM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house Lol nope
https://spectator.org/the-time-for-civilians-to-own-ar-15s-is-over/
Presidents’ Day. I keep thinking that when I was a lad growing up in Silver Spring, Maryland, just across the Potomac, in Virginia, they also got to celebrate January 19, or the closest Monday day to it, as Robert E. Lee’s Birthday. They got school off, which seemed like a great deal. It’s hard to imagine that would happen now. Or is it? It turns out that Lee’s birthday is still a state holiday in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, and Mississippi. In a real stunning statement of how America has changed, it’s sometimes combined with Martin Luther King, Jr.’s birthday to make the holiday. Sometimes “Stonewall” Jackson’s birthday is tossed in there, too. What an amazingly flexible country this is.
And here’s something else as to which we need some change. It’s about guns.
Now, I’m a Second Amendment guy. I believe Americans who are sane and not criminals and pass a genuine background test should be allowed to own weapons for home protection and for target shooting and for self-defense. That makes perfect sense to me. How many of us are able to take on a strong young home intruder with our feeble old arms? But how much more fair the story is when you take the handiwork of Smith & Wesson out of your night stand?
So, owning a gun seems like a fairly good idea. And allowing grown men and women who pass strict tests to carry them either openly or in concealed carry makes sense, too. If you want to feel protected, you want to feel protected all of the time.
But for the life of me, I cannot see why any American civilians need an AR-15 or any other military-style semi-automatic rifle. I understand why people want them. It makes your ordinary nerdy guy seem like he’s tough and rough and ready. It makes him feel as if he’s got some part of him that’s always steely and ready for action. But that’s not enough reason to own a gun that just begs to be used against people.
If you look at an AR-15 or any other similar weapon, it doesn’t look like it’s made for hunting. It doesn’t look like it’s made for target shooting. No, it’s made to kill other people. At least that’s what it looks like.
It looks like weapons in newsreels used to kill insurgents. It looks like weapons used in disgusting, violent video games to kill people. It looks as if it won’t ever be happy until you use it to kill someone.
I understand the Second Amendment arguments about semi-automatic military style weapons bans: if you let the camel put his nose under the tent, pretty soon he’s walking off with the tent. If you let the government ban the AR-15 and its many cousins, are automatic pistols next? Are shotguns next? Where is the stopping point?
We don’t know. But private ownership of machine guns has been mostly illegal in the U.S. since 1934 and almost completely illegal since 1986. Yet men and women can own guns of almost any description right now. There is a stopping point at which reasonable people agree that enough is enough.
We’ve passed that point with the sporterized assault rifles. We’re way past that point. Yes, better background checks would be great. An FBI and a BATF that worked would be fine. But we can make it simpler than that. Let’s just stop selling AR-15s at stores or at gun shows or anywhere. There have been too many innocent people killed by too many insane people who could not have done it without the AR-15 or its copycats. We love the right to bear arms. We used to love our assault rifle substitutes. But Madison and Jefferson did not intend that insane people should have access to weapons of mass destruction to use at high schools and rock concerts. We’ve seen the hell that these devices can cause in the hands of any of the millions of maniacs out there. We don’t need any more proof. Let’s have at least a modicum of common sense. The time for civilians to own AR-15s is over. No issues about background checks. Just no more manufacturing or selling of AR-15s. Period.
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:39 AM Author: sooty vivacious roommate quadroon It begins (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35451978) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:40 AM Author: lime insane station ITS NOT THE RIFLE ITS THE 30+ ROUND MAGAZINES
christ |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:46 AM Author: Coiffed selfie This. Exactly this. A guy can be just as lethal (or probably more lethal) with a glock and a drum clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrHOI5x5mU |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:54 AM Author: lime insane station tbf that's a full auto which is rare and heavily regulated under the NFA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452071) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:55 AM Author: Coiffed selfie It's not the full auto part I'm talking about. Unless you're jacked like the dude in the video, full auto would make most people substantially less accurate/lethal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452079) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:41 AM Author: laughsome forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35451988) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:42 AM Author: Thriller plaza So guns make sense, but not scary-looking black rifles? And WTF, "automatic pistols"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35451994) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:46 AM Author: lime insane station devil's advocate: why do virtually all mass shooters choose the scary-looking black rifle? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452029) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:47 AM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish I don't think anyone has studied it.
My guess is that they're abundant, cheap, and tacticool. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:48 AM Author: Coiffed selfie It's a sign of the times. Mass shooters typically use whatever the "used for violence" gun of the day is.
In the 90's, everyone was talking about how lethal Tec-9's were. That's what they used in Columbine.
In the early 2000's, it was the Glock, which GI Cho used at Va Tech.
Now it's the AR-15. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:57 AM Author: cream brunch Same reason they would buy the best semi-auto handgun and kill just as many people if we banned the AR-15 for being so scary looking. See e.g. Seung Hui Cho and his P22 and glock 19 and his 50+ victims/32 confirmed kills. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452094) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:42 AM Author: Razzle University Skinny Woman 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452000) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:44 AM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish "If you look at an AR-15 or any other similar weapon, it doesn’t look like it’s made for hunting. It doesn’t look like it’s made for target shooting. No, it’s made to kill other people. At least that’s what it looks like."
Look, look, look.
You don't think you can kill people with guns that have wooden grips and stocks? |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:45 AM Author: yellow range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452021) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:47 AM Author: lime insane station granted but why do mass shooters tend to choose the black rifle? what is it about it that appeals to them? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452033) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:48 AM Author: Thriller plaza That's more recent. Columbine shooters used mostly handguns. Office shooter in California used handguns. Blacks shooting up lib cities use handguns. Only advantage to scary black rifle is maybe the scope for better aim, assuming you don't hold it sideways. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452050) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:51 AM Author: lime insane station yeah but columbine shooters used TACTICAL handguns like Tec 9s. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452062) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:52 AM Author: Thriller plaza That was one of their weapons, not the only ones. The Colorado movie theater shooter had a tactical rifle, but hardly used the magazine capacity that he had available to him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452064) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:57 AM Author: lime insane station i dont think that's correct. the dead victims collectively had 33 bullet wounds, which suggests more than one magazine was used. and that doesnt even account for all the shots he fired that missed.
edit: yeah he fired 65 rounds from his rifle, 6 from his shotgun, and 5 from his pistol. i suspect the only reason it stopped there was that everyone in the room fled or was dead by that point.
http://www.speroforum.com/a/HYXPQFNUEF25/76410-Graphic-photos-of-Dark-Knight-shooting-released#.Wo2lEagbO70 |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:54 AM Author: soggy mexican pozpig it's cheap so everybody has one.
Also they are customizable with hundreds of interchangeable parts and models. But none of these accessories make much of a difference as to how many people you can kill except for magazine size, which is not related to the AR-15 at all. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:07 PM Author: Honey-headed toilet seat hairy legs for one, they're cheaper also, they look cooler / have a more contemporary aesthetic but an AK with a wooden stock will kill anyone just as dead |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:54 AM Author: diverse maize wagecucks Parkland faggot probably would have killed more people if he had a bunch of handguns and was shooting two at a time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452070) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:57 AM Author: Flatulent appetizing sneaky criminal circlehead Yeah, it is made to kill people. 130 million people were killed by collectivism in the 20th century. They didn’t have guns. It’s not going to happen to us. Come and take mother fuckers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452095) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:05 PM Author: ruddy aromatic stag film (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453739) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:06 PM Author: Ruby underhanded bawdyhouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453755) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:49 AM Author: Flatulent appetizing sneaky criminal circlehead Amazing how fast the Jews forget they were disarmed, rounded up and gassed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452054) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:51 AM Author: multi-colored stage where do you think they got the idea (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452063) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:25 PM Author: Ruby underhanded bawdyhouse 2/3 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452285) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:31 PM Author: Aqua mewling parlor really tough guy Hey get out, this is an anti-gun control thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453967) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:30 PM Author: stubborn irradiated corn cake (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455434) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:56 AM Author: blue filthpig shrine Where in the second amendment does it say we can own guns as long as they are designed for hunting or target practice?
Jefferson and Madison had direct experience with normal bros who needed their guns to fight back against their government oppressors. Not to go target shooting. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 11:58 AM Author: Coiffed selfie If anything, the second amendment (which refers to gun rights in the context of militia duty) implies that the guns that deserve protection are those used for martial purposes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452097) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:03 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house Lol at going contextual with gun nuts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452128) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:04 PM Author: Coiffed selfie "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I don't see how a 22 snubnose is going to secure a free state. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:27 PM Author: Ruby underhanded bawdyhouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452295) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:07 PM Author: glittery trailer park kitty cat SCOTUS has backed this position at least once in US v Miller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 2:54 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish In any case, guns that can kill animals can kill humans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453625) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:13 PM Author: Curious gaping Even banning sales of new AR15 would do nothing. Thanks to the last assault weapons ban, millions and millions were bought up by everyone so they would still be readily available and plentiful.
The scarcity during the last assault weapons ban will not be repeated even if a new one is passed.
As far as hunting, what do most people who hunt with a rifle hunt? Deer. What’s a deer? A thin skinned animal of between 100-300lbs. The same thing optimized for shooting deer works on other thin skinned animals of 100-300lbs (e.g. humans).
People use ARs for mass shootings because they are so plentiful, reasonably priced, and effective. But the same result would obtain with a wood stock mini-14 and the sniper attackers would have killed more with .308 or 30.06 which, by the way, are the most popular deer cartridges. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:14 PM Author: Coiffed selfie I don't think my shoulder could tolerate a mass shooting with 30-06 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452212) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:14 PM Author: soggy mexican pozpig what does a 30.06 do to a poor deer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452216) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:15 PM Author: Coiffed selfie Depends on the quality of the hunter. For me, it usually puts a hole somewhere in the deer's midsection that causes the deer to take off running for 1-5 miles while it slowly bleeds out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452223) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:17 PM Author: soggy mexican pozpig sounds like you need a 30 round magazine for enough follow up shots to be humane. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452232) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:19 PM Author: Coiffed selfie Follow up shots can be hard AF, broksi.
What I need is more time at the range |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:16 PM Author: glittery trailer park kitty cat Drop it on the spot with minimal damage to meat, it's in no way overpowered for deer hunting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452226) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:16 PM Author: Coiffed selfie If anything, a .223 is somewhat underpowered for a large deer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452228) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:18 PM Author: glittery trailer park kitty cat It's not even legal in most states because it's too underpowered. I use 6.8 SPC in mine and it gets the job done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452241) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:18 PM Author: soggy mexican pozpig well a 30.06 is several orders of magnitude above a .223.
My uncle uses a 6.8 spc and 300 blackout for most AR hunting. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:24 PM Author: Curious gaping ‘dem new fangled fancy rounds. A lot of places don’t allow semi auto for hunting. Some don’t even allow rifles so people use 12 gauge (with buck shot or slugs) but that is mainly to protect houses from overshoots. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452273) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:18 PM Author: Curious gaping Break some ribs and have it drop right away. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452244) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:26 PM Author: lime insane station idk but here's what an ar-15 does to a deer
http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=3816687&mc=138&forum_id=2
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:29 PM Author: cream brunch This song explains everything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XLdxxJEB80
Only it's a about a crow instead of a deer. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:12 PM Author: blathering violent chad famous landscape painting exactly what it's supposed to it's also one of the most popular calibers |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:25 PM Author: Ruby underhanded bawdyhouse Not Ben Stein! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452283) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:32 PM Author: Swashbuckling Patrolman House I'm not a gun guy, but this is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen. Cho killed 33 people with a glock 9 and a 22mm. Insane whackos will still be able to kill tons of folks if you were to ban AR-15s.
You need to remove these people from society. As soon as someone shows signs of autism or mental illness they should be locked away or exterminated. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 2:59 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish I think you mean .22, not 22 mm.
22 mm would be a .866, a hilariously huge bullet that would look about like this: https://files.catbox.moe/9g6zy1.jpg |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:02 PM Author: Histrionic native "22mm"
well, at least you aren't lying about not being "a gun guy" |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:04 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish By the way, a .22 has so little recoil that you can fire tons of them really fast and maintain decent accuracy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453733) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:05 PM Author: Spruce Parlour (nocoiner) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453747) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:29 PM Author: Olive cuck clown Now look up Broward County school policies. They wanted to reduce the "school-to-prison" pipeline, and per "disparate impact" directives, they stopped arresting students for various offenses. One arrest would have prevented Cruz from clearing a background check. Whatever he did at school was bad enough that teachers were instructed not to let him onto the campus with a backpack. But with a name like Cruz, any disciplinary issues were swept under the rug. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453945) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:31 PM Author: autistic razzle-dazzle orchestra pit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453959) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:33 PM Author: sooty vivacious roommate quadroon Lmao at the US, if true (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453979) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:41 PM Author: Olive cuck clown BEHOLD, THE LINK
https://www.publicsource.org/these-districts-fought-the-school-to-prison-pipeline-can-pittsburgh-learn-their-lessons/ |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:46 PM Author: soul-stirring peach goal in life Holy shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455502) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 4:18 PM Author: glittery trailer park kitty cat haha wow holy shit
Diversity really is our greatest strength |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:02 PM Author: Flatulent appetizing sneaky criminal circlehead Libs pack your shit you’re done here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455258) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:01 PM Author: Flatulent appetizing sneaky criminal circlehead Lmao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455256) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 7:06 PM Author: Umber Hairraiser Indian Lodge Telephone Cho is not part of the narrative (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455646) |
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Date: February 22nd, 2018 11:19 AM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish http://bit.ly/2BJjXpb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35460322) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 12:34 PM Author: beady-eyed public bath I would agree to this if there was no such thing as Libs and no possibility that they might one day try to instill totalitarian control over the country. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35452358) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:27 PM Author: Olive cuck clown I am still terrified by the thought of a POTUS Hillary. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453922) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:04 PM Author: provocative rose gaming laptop gas station for a guy with a 150 iq he's a shitty writer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453720) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:05 PM Author: Spruce Parlour If you look at an AR-15 or any other similar weapon, it doesn’t look like it’s made for hunting. It doesn’t look like it’s made for target shooting. No, it’s made to kill other people. At least that’s what it looks like. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453751) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:30 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish Looks like we have a solution! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35453952) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 3:42 PM Author: twinkling high-end business firm If we only allow sales of pink guns with flowers on them, the problem will be solved! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35454049) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:19 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish All semi-autos must be gay or girly looking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455369) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:23 PM Author: twinkling high-end business firm Actually, that might discourage some people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455396) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:07 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish Teen with Rainbow Granny Gun Kills 11 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35456626) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:11 PM Author: Honey-headed toilet seat hairy legs http://www.outlawactionsports.com/uploads/1/5/8/2/15820124/tiffany-blue-ar15-for-sale_orig.jpeg (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35456663) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:38 PM Author: Dashing love of her life death wish http://www.glamguns.com/hk47.jpg (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35456912) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 4:25 PM Author: Bistre abnormal locale Guns are made to kill things. The AR is made to kill things. The S&W Ben talks about in his nightstand is made to kill things - in fact, it's more specifically designed to kill people than the AR. The entire point of the Second Amendment is that there are circumstances in which you are justified in killing things, and so you have the right to do so.
My life is as important as the life of a school shooting victim. I get to protect it by killing things if necessary. |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:04 PM Author: fuchsia boyish community account "the AR-15 lookth thcary"? this was a published thing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455274) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:16 PM Author: blathering violent chad famous landscape painting stein is usually a very insightful, smart guy i hate it when someone i respect goes full out bitchass retard fuck you, stein, you fucking kimmel pussy |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 6:25 PM Author: Light apoplectic juggernaut with all do respect to stein, I believe he don't kn0w shit about Robert E Lee, because the General, who had seen enough of dea†h and destruction, would most certainly offer a plaintive anthem toward rational gun control, protecting the youth of our country; its not JUST ar-15s, its all guns, or nothing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35455400) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:40 PM Author: shimmering lay twinkling uncleanness Lee would be in favor of banning guns? Is that what you're saying? Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35456933) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 10:11 PM Author: Light apoplectic juggernaut After the war and as president of Washington College, REL said “the great mistake of my life was taking a military education.” Books rather than guns are the answer, gained after bitter experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35457214) |
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Date: February 21st, 2018 9:05 PM Author: Honey-headed toilet seat hairy legs ben stein: jew (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3899402&forum_id=2#35456614) |