Wife is 7 months pregnant and wants to drink now, says it's safe. I won't let he
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Date: March 27th, 2018 9:44 AM Author: Umber Soggy Field
“Animal studies are the best we have because we can’t do randomized controlled trials on human pregnant women,” he points out. “Ultimately, the rat model is pretty good as far as evidence.”
Women’s health expert Jennifer Wider, MD, agrees. “This study and several others like it, are highlighting the fact that environmental effects on fetal development are important with respect to emotional and behavioral outcomes, not just physical outcomes,”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35698597)
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Date: March 27th, 2018 9:28 AM Author: harsh appetizing international law enforcement agency
my wife: scarfing down folic acid to ensure dat alpha asian genetics are carried on
u: LJL
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35698476) |
Date: March 27th, 2018 10:18 AM Author: vivacious chad pocket flask
this is an easy way to see who's white and who isn't
OB/GYNs tell white pregnant women all the time that 1-2 glasses of red wine a week after the first trimester is not only fine, but could even have some mild benefits
OB/GYNs tell non-white pregnant women that there is a strict prohibition because they don't trust them
this is a known phenomenon. similar reason why blacks don't have problems with the opioid crisis. doctors didn't think their pain was real so they didn't prescribe them opioids.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35698852) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 10:22 AM Author: Insecure set
The benefits of red wine are shrew flame. Zero epidemiological evidence to suggest drinking during pregnancy has positive effects, as far as I can tell.
People giving this advice are hilariously bad at risk/reward calculus.
Don’t drink during pregnancy you utter morons.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35698881) |
Date: March 27th, 2018 10:25 AM Author: Exhilarant Stain
JFC at the childless neckbeards ITT.
By the third trimester, 1-2--or even THREE--glasses of wine a week is fine. Not every day, and not back to back, but spaced out.
LJL at this boart bucking conventional wisdom on nearly everything, but clutching their pearls when someone suggests it is OK to do what 90% of europeans and Australians do during pregnancy. Of course you can't prove that drinking alcohol during pregnancy is safer than not drinking any, but the risk of light drinking is minimal. The "alcohol is poison" approach is just what you have to tell dumb proles who lie about how much they drink so they don't binge drink during pregnancy. I bet you retards think straight men get HIV from women?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35698895) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 10:54 AM Author: Insecure set
We have animal models suggesting no dose is safe.
Obviously this is hard to study in humans because we can’t do RCTs and the observational studies are going to be underpowered and make detecting causal effects difficult. But the biological mechanisms are pretty well understood. It’s not like alcohol magically stops being poisonous if consumed in only small quantities. It’s just a question of the size of the effect.
I would similarly advise against healthy people smoking a single cigarette per day, despite the lack of any studies showing that such a mild dose is harmful (IIRC).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699119) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Insecure set
Well I’d be concerned more than just the cancer risk (e.g. lung function, addiction).
But yeah I think it’s weird you think a cig a day would be OK just because “it’s never been shown” to be harmful. Turn your brain on.
I’m also not making any behavioral arguments so idk why you think that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699210) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:06 AM Author: Narrow-minded elastic band ratface
Your question was “why cause unnecessary harm to the fetus?” My point was there are tons of behaviors that could cause harm to the fetus.
If you’re now saying there is a risk/reward calculus, then I’d like to know studies that show a few drinks here and there is more likely than not to cause harm to the fetus in the 3rd trimester. And I’m not talking about generic CDC recommendations aimed at tards with no impulse control. My OBGYN laughs at those guidelines. This should be measured against the reward to women of enjoying a glass of wine with dinner when they’re 7 months pregnant.
Also, if the thread title was: “my 7 month pregnant wife just ate an entire dominos pizza for dinner” there wasn’t be the same handwringing. People would make fun of her being a fat slob but nobody would be saying “omg your fetus is deformed” when in reality eating like shit during pregnancy is far more likely to cause long term effects than having some wine.
I suggest you read the book “expecting better” which is written by an economist which pools the studies regarding various risks during pregnancy. It is telling that this thread is great bait for self righteous childlessmos who can’t get a woman to actually breed with them.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699228) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:23 AM Author: Insecure set
I have no idea what your background is but I’m almost certainly more qualified to assess risk and epidemiological evidence in this situation.
Meta-analyzing underpowered observational studies doesn’t impress me for obvious reasons.
The animal models (and also the facial deformity study linked above) make it pretty clear no dose is without adverse effects.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699394) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 2:16 PM Author: claret mad-dog skullcap
The methodology for the facial deformity study is garbage. And in any event it is not specific to parents who actually do controlled drinking.
Animal models are not impressive.
Many people drink during late pregnancy apparently without incident, such that one would think any effect would be small.
Most mothers will of course want to follow the precautionary principle, since that's the nature of motherhood. (Usually...) But it seems doubtful nutella'a kids face some huge risk.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35700885) |
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Date: March 28th, 2018 2:53 PM Author: claret mad-dog skullcap
Eh, life's about risks, and as you cogently explained down-thread, the risk really falls on someone else, so #YOLO. (Flesh of my flesh but not skin of my game).
I'm not a hater on animal studies generally, but they don't seem super-compelling as to the precise Q at issue here.
Available meta-analyses seem to agree (I don't think this dispute is worth going doing a real lit-review over, just wanted to white-knight nutella as part of a multi-stage plan to get her to hire me inhouse):
https://academic.oup.com/alcalc/article/38/4/295/232265
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35710300) |
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Date: March 28th, 2018 3:04 PM Author: Insecure set
So let me stop shitposting for a second and be serious.
Here’s my problem with concluding booze is safe in limited amounts from current research. I think meta-analysis presents us with a garbage in, garbage out situation. We both agree the effect, if it exists, is going to be small, and these meta-analyses involve observational studies with huge sources of noise from other things. I think they are underpowered to detect a small but potentially practically significant effect. (Although I have not examined them closely and am open to being corrected on this point.)
In absence of good direct evidence, I look to indirect evidence, such as animal studies. And if, In those controlled settings, we can detect an effect from small amounts of booze ... that seems like something to be concerned about. Maybe. Given booze is far from a necessary part of life I see no reason to risk it. Maybe if the mother literally could not function and work without it the calculus would change, but I don’t think most people are like that.
Also as I noted by copy/pasting a Taleb book review below, I think the distribution of risk/reward here skews the decision making.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35710384) |
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Date: March 28th, 2018 6:15 PM Author: claret mad-dog skullcap
Agreed that in the absence of direct evidence, we should look to indirect evidence. The best indirect evidence here is that many mothers drink, but few notice effects; and many researchers have tried to find an effect of low to moderate drinking in late pregnancy, but they have by and large failed (see, e.g, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4575046/ ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17233797/ ; http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/7/e015410 ).
What is needed - absent an interventional study - is a larger prospective study in humans, which controls for the various confounds that might be masking an effect.
As things stand, EVEN CONTROLLING FOR SES, meta-analyses suggest leave open the possibility there's a _beneficial_ effect of low-moderate drinking --- I suspect this is due to other confounds not fully captured by SES, but who knows. [Still, it's not like the sign flipped when they only looked at studies controlling for SES].
QUOTE ( source - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acer.12214 )
**********
In a separate meta‐analysis based on 7 studies with NOS scores of 6 or more including approximately 26,100 children, we observed a statistically significant, albeit small, beneficial association between mild‐to‐moderate prenatal alcohol exposure and cognition (Cohen's d 0.04; 95% CI, 0.00, 0.08; p = 0.03; Fig. 2). None of the associations observed in the individual studies in this subanalysis were statistically significant. Although not statistically significant, the direction of 1 study, by Brown and colleagues (2010), was opposite to the others and another, by Kelly and colleagues (2009), was centered at zero among girls, but not boys.
This association between mild‐to‐moderate prenatal alcohol exposure and cognition was of similar magnitude, but no longer significant in a post hoc analysis considering only the 6 studies that controlled for SES (excluding a study by Alati et al. [2008] that accounted for SES in published analyses including individuals with heavy prenatal alcohol exposure, but not in published analyses that met our inclusion criteria; Cohen's d 0.04; 95% CI, −0.01, 0.09; p = 0.08). The association with cognition also was not significant when including only studies that assessed moderate alcohol consumption (Fig. S1), even when limiting these studies to those that were of “high quality.”
When including studies of all quality scores, we observed a significant detrimental association between binge prenatal alcohol exposure and child cognition (Cohen's d −0.13; 95% CI, −0.21, −0.05; p < 0.01; Fig. 2). This analysis used data on children aged 6 months to 14 years from 8 studies (n & 10,000). The results of this meta‐analysis were borderline significant when limited to data from studies of high quality (n & 9,000, p = 0.054).
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You propose a precautionary principle, one strengthened by the notion that the mother is acting as (in essence) a fiduciary for someone else who doesn't have a say in the matter. A glib response: it's plausible there's a hormetic effect at low levels, such that the precautionary principle would _mandate_ low levels of alcohol consumption.
A less glib response: my decision principle here would be that you should weigh your utility function from drinking, including the extent (if any) to which you take your offspring into account), against the potential harm to the child. Nobody follows the precautionary principle, in which any potential for harm means you must abstain entirely, in any area of life that's not morally-loaded. Nor is it ever (logically) applied in the obverse, such that it is a positive injunction to do every action which may have some benefit. That is because they are unworkable in reality, on account of there's too much stuff going on.
So while my wife didn't drink during her pregnancies, I'm sanguine about nutella's behavior here.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35711748) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:25 AM Author: Histrionic Legend Dopamine
>> Your question was “why cause unnecessary harm to the fetus?” My point was there are tons of behaviors that could cause harm to the fetus. <<
Sure, but come on your example of a car accident didn't make sense.
We know alcohol is bad for an unborn baby -- the only question it seems is the amount and frequency. At some point it's bad and then at another point it's disastrous.
Driving is not nearly the same thing because some amount of driving is not per se bad for an unborn baby.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699412) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 2:21 PM Author: Useless cream stag film
"Analysing these revealed subtle differences in the faces of babies whose mothers had drunk alcohol compared with those whose mothers hadn’t. These included a slightly shorter, more-upturned nose."
loooll wholly shit drinking makes the baby MORE attractive
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35700947)
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:02 AM Author: Insecure set
Health organisations generally recommend that pregnant women avoid alcohol entirely, but many women drink before realising they are pregnant – which is often a month or two into a pregnancy.
“We don’t know of a safe lower threshold,” says Chambers. “The recommendation to avoid alcohol in pregnancy is a wise one.”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699192) |
Date: March 27th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: Insecure set
Consider also who gets the benefits, and who shoulders the risk of this drinking behavior.
Benefit: the mother.
Risk: the child.
The mother has no direct skin in the game. If they were at risk for permanent mental impairment, I’d guess their behavior would be different.
If you have no skin in the game, you shouldn’t be in the game. “If you give an opinion, and someone follows it, you are morally obligated to be, yourself, exposed to its consequences.” Hawks in the White House should not be taking decisions about bombs in Iraq when they will remain in their air-conditioned houses with their 2.2 children whatever the result. Bankers similarly are in the “Bob Rubin trade”, named after the former secretary of the US Treasury, who collected more than $120 million in compensation from Citibank in the decade preceding the banking crash of 2008. When the bank, literally insolvent, was rescued by the taxpayer, he didn’t write any cheque – he invoked uncertainty as an excuse.
Drinking mothers should not be allowed to invoke uncertainty as an excuse.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35699331) |
Date: March 27th, 2018 2:13 PM Author: Rusted cruise ship
1. “Analysing these [70K faces] revealed subtle differences in the faces of babies whose mothers had drunk alcohol compared with those whose mothers hadn’t. These included a slightly shorter, more-upturned nose.” Sounds credited for (((whites)))
2. Nutella compares the risk of maternal drinking to pregnant women getting in car accidents. But this isn’t the same thing. Having a glass of wine isn’t taking a drive that has a x% chance of ending in an accident or not, it’s a 100% exposure to a tiny fender bender every time. Now you can say the accumulated fender benders are not meaningful to fetal development, but that’s a separate argument.
3. I sympathize with the kind of geriatric pregnancy high powered career woman who NEEDS her My glass of wine late in her pregnancy, and I’m for giving expectant mothers as much leeway and autonomy as possible. But those high risk geriatric pregnancies also are the ones with the least leeway to play with.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35700860) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 2:31 PM Author: Yellow fragrant gay wizard
While researching her controversial bookExpecting Better: Why the Conventional Pregnancy Wisdom Is Wrong and What You Really Need to Know, Oster said that many doctors seemed to agree that a random glass of wine on a weekly basis probably isn't harmful, based on anecdotal experience and perhaps the foreign research too. But she also said she got the impression from doctors that they trust older, professional, more educated women with this inside information because doctors assume those women will actually keep pregnant drinking under wraps, whereas the general population might interpret the OK to have one glass of wine as a slippery slope to have more.
This is the drumbeat of many pregnant drinkers (admittedly, myself included) — that they're privy to the inside info that doctors only tell their friends. For this reason, I never asked my doctor to sign off on my occasional drink during pregnancy. Writing that smacks as irresponsible, but the truth is that if my doctor told me I couldn't, I'd believe she was just telling me what she's supposed to. I asked an ob-gyn friend instead, because I knew that, in private, friend to friend, she would give me the truth. She said a drink here or there is completely fine.
"I remember a nurse friend telling me, 'We can't trust most people to drink in moderation, so they tell them not to do it at all,'" Josie Ortega, a 30-year-old mom from Nashville, Tennessee, told me. She drank lightly — at cocktail parties or after dinners with her husband — during pregnancy with her two daughters, now 8 months and 2 years old. ("I'm officially pregnant, drinking wine and unashamed," Ortega tweeted last year, linking to a preview of Oster's book in the Wall Street Journal.)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35701096)
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Date: March 28th, 2018 4:07 AM Author: charcoal razzle-dazzle puppy theatre
The problem with threads like these is that xo men don't see any value in things that are intrinsically rewarding to women, they just see women as vessels for pushing out babies.
Which is why you have all the "Why would you risk ift for one glass?" Questions. Someone said the risk of the alcohol should be weighed against the reward a glass of wine offers a pregnant woman - the problem is, they don't care about the mother's reward.
If this were something that prevented men from doing something enjoyable the responses would be a lot different.
And as Nutella was saying, why ever do anything for pleasure's sake that isn't 100% safe?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35706916) |
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Date: March 28th, 2018 7:16 AM Author: godawful crackhouse persian
This is retarded. It's about self control and the desire to do everything possible to give your kids the absolute best shot in life. If there's a chance that light drinking has even a very mild impact on the IQ or health of the baby, it isn't worth it.
It's also asinine to assume that men can't relate. I forego hedonistic pleasure every single day for the betterment of my family. You think I work 60 hours a week as a miserable lawyer for fun? No, I do it so my children can have a good life. This is same reason I don't go the bar and drink during the week. If I didn't have kids, I'd be bumming around doing something fun instead.
The willingness to sacrifice important things, let alone some stupid hedonistic pleasures, for helping our kids used to be instinctive in our culture. That has changed and it's indicative of a larger problem. Then again, I wouldn't expect a heroin addict to understand.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35707173) |
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Date: March 28th, 2018 7:27 AM Author: claret mad-dog skullcap
Agreed it is silly to suggest men cannot relate, except I suppose to women's selfishness.
Some critiques, though:
1) People drink far less during pregnancy now than they ever have (since alcohol became readily available). Smoke less, too. That would seem a problem for your larger thesis.
2) Re: giving kids the absolute best shot in life, two responses --
a. There's very weak to nonexistent evidence limited alcohol in the third trimesters is at all harmful. The reason it's fixated on, as opposed to other dangers (say, living in a city where the air is worse) is that there's a moral panic over it, and Americans like to quail.
b. The metric of "giving kids the absolute best shot in life" leads to worse kids. Here's how (vox title). When you expend too much energy on any one kid, you'll not have the energy to have more. Yet your kids' success or failure is almost entirely genetically determined, such that the proper course to give your kids the best shot is to (i) select their parents well; and, (ii) have MORE kids.
Making having kids unpleasant means (ii) is less likely, and I've seen nobody urging against alcohol here focus on (i), even though, if giving kids "the best shot" is the metric, it should be near paramount.
* * *
My wife didn't drink during her pregnancies. She also gave up coffee and a range of other things which may be bad for the child. She exercised, took those stupid omega-3 pills, all that stuff. As RSF pumos are fond of pointing out, it profited us little. On the other hand, there are mothers who drink and smoke and use drugs freely who have kids who reach the summum bonum of society.
It is always tempting, as a parent, to wish to have more power than you do; as a child, to assign more power to parents than is warranted. The world seems more sensible when we're in control. But we are, by and large, not. Doing the modern equivalent of wiping away the labor blood and signing against the Evil Eye won't stop the jaws of tragedy from taking you and your family whenever they fancy a guttle.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3930538&forum_id=2#35707189) |
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