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If we lose the concept of God humanity is totally fucked
Poast new message in this thread
Date: May 1st, 2018 8:29 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Right up the asshole literally (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962372) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 4:22 PM Author: ivory pit newt *fingers crossed!* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35968061) |
Date: May 1st, 2018 8:32 PM Author: Glassy multi-billionaire better study up on classical theism so we can get some smart people who actually believe in God for real instead of postmodernists who want to go down the route of the Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962384) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:33 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Woke christians only pomo Jesus. God is self evidently immanent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962394) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:34 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot at the risk of being overly simplistic, i think most orthodox and protestant christians have a classical thomistic impression of the godhead whereas evangelicals have the anthropomorphic godhead in their minds. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962397) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:37 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Seriously? Aquinas and its consequences were a disaster for human Christianity (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962415) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:37 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot we will disagree on this. aquinas is the key to recovering christianity in the west imho. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962422) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:39 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Who are your favorite thomists? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962439) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:45 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i don't have one. i've read some from grad school like (forgive spelling) garrigou lagrange, jaques maritain, and etienne gilson. but thomas is so deeply ingrained in catholic theology that it's easier to say WHO ISNT thomist than to say who is thomist. his entire elaboration of god and how to understand revelation basically is the foundation of orthodox christianity. i think the big problem is no one is actually TAUGHT orthodox christianity except the small amount of people who convert in adulthood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962462) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:49 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station How did a Catholic priest set the foundation for orthodox views? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962486) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:51 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot he took what already existed and put them in an order using aristotilian methods to compare and contrast with other faiths to make the case for christ. he more set it all in an articulate order than do anything new. because he did nothing new. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962503) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:59 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station I watched 6 hours of a baptist with a phd in something talk about how aquanis is sps so this is good to know (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962534) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:06 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i think, and this is just my feeling, that thomas set the framework on how to talk to the new atheists. in the main, christians would agree with the new atheists in that the god they describe we don't believe in either. we believe in the god best described by thomas. imho. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962579) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:10 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Agreed on the first point, but I'm not sure if he's anything more than a ladder you have to throw away once you really understand, if there is such a thing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962610) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:47 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot allow me to add that christianity suffers from much of the same problem islam does--those who are born into it basically practice a set of rituals they don't understand that is just part and parcel of their tribalism. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962481) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:50 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962494) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:41 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender maybe, but aren't neo-thomists on a mission to make natural law entirely toothless? that might be hurting the brand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962448) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:42 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Cr that's what inevitably happens when you start employing rationalist justification (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962453) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:44 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender it's what happens when you cuck to modernity and individualism, thomas himself is vastly superior of course. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962459) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:46 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot but god is rationality itself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962469) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:47 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station This is too Aristotelian for my liking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962477) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:48 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot and that's a very fair critique. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962482) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:11 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender i don't think we live in a world that e.g. origen's platonizing christianity could grow and flourish in, unfortunately (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962620) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:31 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot because of postmodernism? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962772) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:33 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender yeah, i think too many people are too cynical for emphasis on the transcendental conception of god (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962799) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:37 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i think the word transcendental has a lot of baggage in our era that needs to be unloaded. the transcendent is just that which is wholly other. and it would seem to me that one can convince a rational person of wholly other. the transcendent has come to have attendant meanings such as "the mystical" and smells a bit of new age-ism to many people who at least claim to be rational thinkers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962851) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:41 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender there's definitely that side of it, but i think people often now get frustrated by negative theology (e.g. the extreme form in duns scotus), because it doesn't offer the sort of concrete-seeming answers they think physical sciences can give us. the disconnect in 20th century thought from what preceded has been a mess from many different directions, i guess. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962874) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:45 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i actually got to that below. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962913) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:32 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender (french priest in 1789) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962387) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:33 PM Author: Bright parlour (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962393) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:08 PM Author: aggressive new version dilemma (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962587) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:33 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i will give jordan peterson this much: he changed how i viewed nietzsche. nietzsche called this, but i read it when i was young as him celebrating it when he was really worried about the consequences of it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962391) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:36 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Not sure its wise to take Nietzsche interpretation from him. Shacht or even Kauffman are better bets in my view (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962411) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:37 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot in the sense that I haven't thought of it since then and it just was a seed planted that became a tree that I never thought it, he was valuable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962417) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:39 PM Author: sooty site Nietzsche is far and away the most misunderstood philosopher ("God is dead," links to Nazism, etc.) I took a grad school level class exclusively on him senior year of UG, and it was my favorite. Copped an A- surrounded by doctoral candidate wannabes. There was one incredibly annoying ultra-lib soyboy who would routinely criticize anything non-PC in the texts (e.g. "women are not even shallow"). Prof was a conservahero and widely cited Nietzsche scholar who did not entertain such nonsense and would barely acknowledge the comments |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:40 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i've started a slow revisiting of nietzsche and i realize i was reading him wrong. or, better said, i missed the tone which framed the substance. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962444) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:41 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Explain misinterpretations please. References to the nachlass are encouraged (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962449) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:44 PM Author: sooty site too lazy to go too much in depth right now, plus I am admittedly a little rusty. There is an excellent Philosophy Bites podcast episode with Brian Leiter titled "Nietzsche Myths" that addresses this exact topic. regarding the nachlass, it is well-known that his sister compiled and posthumously published "The Will to Power" against Nietzsche's own wishes. It was an incomplete and scrapped project that did not accurately represent the sum total of his philosophy. Nazis later tried to use it to defend their views, when Nietzsche was actually more critical of the Germans than any other group |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:45 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station You can read the original nachlass breh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962463) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:51 PM Author: sooty site well I don't know German (sadly) sooo no dice there My primary focus in the class (45 page term paper) was on his concept of "amor fati," which is actually contradictory in many ways to all the "will" stuff. He more or less believed that our fate is predetermined, but that we should love it regardless to maximize our outcome (since, given the eternal recurrence, we will live the same life over and over again forever). Almost a proto-Absurdist Sisyphus approach. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:54 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Agreed lieter has a good paper on Nietzsche and the sovereign individual (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962515) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:41 PM Author: Slap-happy trump supporter library hi brian (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962873) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:51 PM Author: sooty site tbf, I also cited something from Leiter, albeit a podcast interview (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962957) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:57 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station This is the only reason I dared to (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962996) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:58 PM Author: Chrome Metal Whorehouse Toaster this is why Islam is going to keep winning
but yeah, keep enjoying IPAs and tinder |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 8:59 PM Author: Azure Exhilarant Senate expected a reddit-level thread but very xo. good job (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962536) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:14 PM Author: bateful balding cumskin nigger (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962643) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:17 PM Author: Azure Exhilarant Senate Now we're doing something (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962667) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:11 PM Author: passionate dark church Yeah look how fucked godless japan is (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962618) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:19 PM Author: electric pocket flask Japanese aren't really godless (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962686) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:24 PM Author: passionate dark church They’re literally godless (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962719) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:45 PM Author: electric pocket flask well they aren't Internet atheists the line is blurry between what is cultural and what is religious, but they believe in ghosts, ancestor spirts, they pray for things, have all sorts of talismans for blessings and good fortune many do believe in God or gods including forms of Buddhism that are practically religions |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:51 PM Author: passionate dark church Buddhism is certainly a religion with values and notions and spiritual ideas, none of which have to do with an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent god figure/concept that has human-like emotions at times and involves him/her/itself in human affairs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962960) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:58 PM Author: electric pocket flask and you can say similarly lofty things about Christianity you'd be disappointed in the way it's actually practiced in Asia |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:37 PM Author: passionate dark church Buddhism and Christianity posit the nature, order and origins of the universe totally differently, and only Christianity would/could relate to OP's point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963313) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:11 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen does xo not understand the concept of knowledge precluding faith or something? people were God-fearing in the distant past because they couldn't explain what was happening around them. we now live in an age of highly available information and widespread disenchantment. it is abundantly clear to most intelligent people that we are ape-like things with evolved consciousness. we sit on a rock hurtling aimlessly through fathomless black gulfs of chaos...you aren't bringing God back, sorry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962621) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:13 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender ok, so what's the final cause of humanity and the world, sciencecuck? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962635) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:15 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen a good question, but at this point, even if it was some sort of God, its benevolence is seriously in doubt...so why revere it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962653) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:25 PM Author: passionate dark church I’ve always said things make a lot more sense if god in fact hates us. Think about it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962733) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:28 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen if there is some kind of teleological thread to existence, or some universal notion of good and evil, then it seems obvious to me that existence as we experience it is actively malevolent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962755) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:42 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender we live in an ordered universe and possess the ability to order ourselves and our societies, even if we are currently failing at the latter for distinctively human reasons. what's necessitating gnosticism, exactly? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962883) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:46 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen I don't see how living in an ordered universe or being able to organize ourselves reveals some divine good...if anything it is just a manifestation of the crushing boredom at the heart of nature. serial killers and tax collectors like to keep everything in order too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962920) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:52 PM Author: Slap-happy trump supporter library from what i understand, the concept of "ordered" universe is just a side effect of a lot of beginning energy, so pockets can be ordered while the whole thing is increasingly disordered and eventually the completely disordered, dead universe will live on for n^nth years compared to the current state where some order is feasible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962964) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:58 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963013) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:16 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station There is a non zero probability that materialism is wrong, that brains don't produce consciousness from whole cloth, that minds come from God, and that your epistemology is myopic. Unless you can prove that science can in principle explain everything with a knowable sufficient reason, logical positivism failed and your world view is based on an inductive inference whose hubris is unrivalled in the history of our species.
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:19 PM Author: Stirring Liquid Oxygen I never said that science can explain everything or that materialism is true, but that doesn't change the fact that reality is consistent in its representation to humans, and that this reality is bleak and without transcendence (which all humans recognize subconsciously, hence the loss of faith). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962680) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:25 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station It seems psychotic to reject the transcendental deduction. When you accept it your pessimistic conclusions dissolve in the face of noumena, and once you aren't analytically tied to nihilism God is a foregone conclusion (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962734) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:28 PM Author: passionate dark church So much of this is not. Right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962751) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:32 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Can you not even? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962790) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:34 PM Author: passionate dark church Transcendental deduction? Is this like claiming salvation on your taxes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962808) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:36 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station There are arguments against Kant. This is not one of them (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962840) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:25 PM Author: passionate dark church You must be really fun at parties. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963218) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:27 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station thanks breh think your poast was # 100 i needed this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963238) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:40 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963334) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:53 PM Author: passionate dark church No prob, you’re manifestly smarter than me anyway so my only tack is to keep you humble brej. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963414) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:27 PM Author: passionate dark church LOL - yeah he’s hubristic to suggest science leads us to a better understanding of the world than believing a guy ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND ASCENDED TO HEAVEN.
Bring god back? Bring Christopher Hitchens back. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:32 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station "everything with a knowable sufficient reason"
State your lsat |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:36 PM Author: passionate dark church Sorry I missed the part where you explained why god/religion/whatever is better than science at that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962834) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:37 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station It's not clear to me you understand the position you're attempting to criticize (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962847) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:49 PM Author: passionate dark church this is true but not for the reason you think bub. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962936) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:56 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station I see no reason to take your word on this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962985) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:35 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot i think the above subthreads miss a bit of piece. explaining the mechanics of the material world does not explain the reason for it's being at all. we are confusing a bit of the "how" the universe exists with "why". they are answering categorically different things. and at core why god and science are not in conflict. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962829) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:37 PM Author: passionate dark church Why does it need s reason? What about existence necessitates a reason? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962849) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:45 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot it doesn't. what i'm getting at is that the undercurrent i sense is that, at bottom, science is proving more and more how things are in the natural environment. and as that body of knowledge grows to some it displaces other bodies of knowledge to capture the field of knowledge in entirety. it's a categorical mistake. now is PART of the inquiry of the existential body of knowledge--is there a god at all? sure. but that question cannot, by definition, by answered by science. but to point at the knowledge we've accumulated in scientific inquiry to say existential questions are moot is a categorical mistake. science never endeavors to answers to those questions. science observes nature, records data, and posits theories that can be reproduced. really, in modernity, people are mapping existential inquiries ONTO science. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962906) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:02 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Last sentence is dead right. Scientific American did a whole issue on how science can solve metaphysical questions and it was plain to see that existential questions were just reappearing couched in scientific language, and that science is ultimatly only capable of reframing the questions and likely to the detriment of solvability (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963036) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:45 PM Author: sooty site You don't think the difference between Nothing and Something is a relevant issue to explore at all? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962912) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:02 PM Author: passionate dark church Hmmm. A relevant issue to explore.
We live in a world filled with hate, mental illness, starvation, deprivation, disease, war and horror.
Kids get cancer and die.
I can think of probably 10,000 other things I’d like work on or consider before this issue of “why is there something instead of nothing.” I don’t know why. We may never know why. There may not BE a why. This is a human question and gets at the nature of OUR being and our psychology as human-animal-beings. But really, we have more pressing problems.
If there was nothing, there’d be nothing. But there’s something. What were you before you were born? I guess there was no “you”, although we know how you got here. A sperm & egg met serendipitously and after 9 months of gestation in a womb, you emerged. But before that. Is that non existence? It didn’t bother you then so why should it bother you later? It’s all much ado about nothing.
It’s a very human question and I understand the need or want to ask it. I just don’t think all questions have real “answers” maybe just “best answers” or “pick an answer”. But there are other things I’d rather ponder that need more urgent attention. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:14 PM Author: Slap-happy trump supporter library why there is something is a very peculiar question though. It begs for an answer. Most people dismiss it like you. But it's a real WTF kind of problem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963129) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:15 PM Author: elite topaz voyeur well i mean, in some sense there HAS to be something, right? beacuse whatever is out there in the ether, some "thing" will be more powerful than all other things and create a world/universe to toy with.
get where im going with this? |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:30 PM Author: sooty site Alan Watts has a good explanation along these lines that is actually in line with the Biblical concept that God created the world "for His own glory." Basically, if you were God, Being itself, existing for all eternity as both Nothing and Everything simultaneously, what would you do? It seems to be almost undeniable that you would create the universe via emanation in order to "play" or "dance," as he puts it. To play "hide and seek" with yourself, experiencing yourself subjectively. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:33 PM Author: Slap-happy trump supporter library i can agree with this as an explanation of why God would bother creating. It's like the Jesus story in a way--put yourself in the shoes of a man who doesn't even know he is God. It enhances your "experience". It is interesting. It's new.
But doesn't explain the turtles all the way down or "why" question from a child--why is there anything to begin with and where did it come from? |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:38 PM Author: sooty site I think the core problem here is the dualistic distinction between Nothing and All, which is a particularly Western problem. Like, before you were born, were you "nothing" or "everything"? You were both. The distinction is not real. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963319) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:55 PM Author: passionate dark church Schroedinger’s Existence (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963421) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:04 PM Author: passionate dark church In Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah) it posits god interacts with the world through different emanations where you can “feel” and interact with and experience it. But the core of god is something called “ein sof” - unknowable, meaning “that without end”. It’s simply a point which beyond there is no understanding or capability to understand. It’s infinite and without limitation. And Kabbalah is an esoteric tradition relating how a being like god can/does interact with the “world” in ways that are perceptible to us and acknowledges part of it never can be.
And Madonna likes it. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:06 PM Author: sooty site right, the mystic tradition crosses all standard religious boundaries. I cited a Christian mystic, Eckhart, ITT. You really get the sense that all mystics are describing more or less the same thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963466) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:23 PM Author: passionate dark church The more you drill down, brushing aside Bronze Age myths and rigid dogmas and whatnot, you get to the same foundational ideas. Maybe mystics were more in tune with this and had separate interests and so it’s a fact most observable there. We’re all talking about the same things in different ways. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963564) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:30 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot this is aquinas' intellectual project in total. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963616) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:29 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot very cr.
btw, most don't know this. aquinas was a mystic as well. he actually said AFTER the experience his work was "so much straw" and never wrote another word again. so there is all this we work on and then there are, to quote catherine of siena, the nine levels of mystical contemplation. and you need the philosophy to even get started for the most part. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:35 PM Author: passionate dark church I'm not dismissing it it's just not a level of discourse I think is helping, improving, impacting anything much. It's way, way above my pay grade to begin with. This conversation relative to this questions is going to go on with or without me, and I'm perfectly content to let others debate. I'd rather talk about why Flint doesn't have clean water or how we can fund more cancer research or how to stop nuclear proliferation. I mean, we have extremely heavy shit to deal with other than the nitty gritty stuff of "why are we here". We will never be able to dodge the most fundamental human question, but in the mean time, we do have to exist as humans and live human lives. That's where I think our/my (?) attention is most beneficial.
The whole do scientific and existential questions overlap, or does science simply recouch the questions- of course they overlap. As humans our mission is to understand and seek the truth. But some questions are not in the realm of science. Does science answer "what is a good person?" Of course not, but it does tell us what light is, what causes weather, what causes disease and a lot of other cool things.
It's a mind fuck for sure, but maybe the fact that we don't know is what keeps things interesting, on an existential level anyway. Let's say "god" did set it all up. It would be a shame if it was that easy to figure it all out. |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 2:20 PM Author: light mexican 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967159) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 8:12 PM Author: pale famous landscape painting Good lord this is garbage. I cant even.
You need to think better about how you get from conclusory sentence A to Conclusory sentence B. Sorry bro. This js low IQ and constrained. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:19 PM Author: Tantric background story wrinkle It’s abundantly clear (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962682) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:15 PM Author: grizzly fat ankles (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967538) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:30 PM Author: Wine Soul-stirring Gas Station Party Of The First Part Great civilizations in the East have gone thousands of years following spirituality without god (or at least how Abrahamic religions portray god). Ljl at thinking god is necessary when we have Chinese & Japanese following folk religions+way of life+God as a force vs some ISIS shithead or overweight racist redneck thinking God as a superior person (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962767) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:42 PM Author: sooty site If you read, e.g. Meister Eckhart, you realize that the smartest, most enlightened Christians never conceive God as some kind of higher, separate Being. God, properly understood, is the ground of all being. This is consistent with Taoism and branches of Hinduism (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962882) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:45 PM Author: Tantric background story wrinkle (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962911) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:47 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot ippsum esse subsistens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962925) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:50 PM Author: sooty site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35962948) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:29 PM Author: maize insecure stock car (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963251) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:01 PM Author: elite topaz voyeur its the same ineluctable shit you boob (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963030) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:04 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station This is Paul tillich verbatim and liberal theology is questionable (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963052) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:13 PM Author: sooty site this is not an exclusively modern concept beckersted quoted Aquinas above saying the same thing |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:14 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963139) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:01 PM Author: light mexican I may be a bit out of my depth in this thread, but I wanted to mention anyway that what I understand to be Hegel's "absolute" is the closest description that I have found of my own conception of god.
I'm not well read in philosophy or religion, but I've become more interested in both since I started watching Jordan Peterson's stuff, and a lot of what I've been reading (like Hegel) has unexpectedly revived and resonated with certain ideas in video games and science fiction that fascinated me as a child. For example, there's a scene that I'll never forget from the 90s JRPG Xenogears where the main characters discover a Soylent System that transforms humans into monsters called "Wels" for the purpose of amalgamating them in to a malevolent deity called Deus. This introduced me to the idea that God is not a separate being, but a vision of what we might become. (Those of you not familiar with Xenogears may recognize this idea from "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke, which inspired the Xenogears storyline.) Another example is Asimov's "Last Question", which introduced me to the idea that the universe is constantly reconstituted by a God that emerges from it.
The idea that God is not a separate being but the final product of an evolutionary process in which we participate (presumably with free will though that is a separate issue) is a much more exciting proposition that is both practical and not inconsistent with scientific understanding. |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:08 PM Author: sooty site "The Last Question" is my favorite short-story of all time, truly incredible. I've never read anything else like it. Should be noted that humans don't "become" God in the story, but rather the AI they create becomes it when the last human minds or whatever have died out from entropy. But I think the theme of the eternal struggle between Light vs. Dark is very important. I think of the cosmos as a constant battle between these two forces, even in purely physicalist terms, like the fundamental laws of physics vs. dark matter/cosmic inflation. Order vs. Chaos. If you take the position of God as the Absolute/Ultimate Ground, and creation being emanations, I think it follows to view both Order and Chaos (good and evil) as distinct but inseparable emanations from the monistic source. |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:30 PM Author: light mexican Yes, in the Last Question, humans did not become god in the same way that the Wels physically lumped together to create Deus. But, Multivac was the product of human consciousness, so in that way a part of humanity (the mind, not the body) became/evolved into Multivac.
The question I have is could a "better" Multivac have answered the question? If so, Multivac's response to the Last Question could be interpreted from Multivac's perspective as "I lack the resources to answer this question, but if I create another universe and start the process all over again, maybe a better Multivac or other final being will emerge that can answer the last question."
So, tying that back to God, the whole purpose of religion might be to formulate a vision of the highest Multivac and to provide a roadmap for pursuing it with maximum efficiency. To sin may be to add inefficiency and unnecessary cost to the production of the highest Multivac, which may again leave it with inadequate resources to answer the Last Question and, therefore, lead to another re-roll of the whole process. |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:33 PM Author: sooty site I don't think Asimov was saying that the end state of Multivac was sub-optimal or that "starting the process all over again" could potentially produce a better one. I think the point is that the birth and death of the physical universe is an eternally recurring cycle, like an ouroboros, that begins and ends the same way every time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967670) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:45 PM Author: light mexican I'm not suggesting Asimov intended to say that. Interpreting the meaning of a story involves more than divining the author's conscious intent.
That said, I agree that Asimov intended to illustrate some concept of eternal recurrence, and I think I'm suggesting that religion might have something to do with trying to break the cycle. For instance, if every person on the planet for all of human history behaved as the highest and best version of themselves, what would the final product of our evolution (which I'm calling god) in that universe look like? Would it have the power to break the cycle? |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:47 PM Author: passionate dark church Technobuddhism. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967791) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 9:49 PM Author: Slap-happy trump supporter library hey Godmos, i can't say i know what the Transcendental Deduction is. Or much about nietzsche or Kant. But you could read up on them and come away with a sort of belief in God?
Because it seems like you could spend years learning how they thought but in the end any belief in any particular conception of God can be fairly easily dismissed as just as made up as Zeus? Like I assume even these guys can't "reason" themselves into belief in something very particular like a Christian God.
Is there more to it? |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:11 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender i think this is the most serious objection to religion in the thread so far. the most famous philosophical proofs aim to prove a vague, almost deistic god who is the ultimate source or cause of being, rather than any particular conception of god. there are some rational arguments for aspects of the christian conception of the godhead, such as thomas' that a trinity is more unified than any single entity could be, and there are more holistic arguments about the goodness of the world being the model for human goodness, but beyond that is where theology and faith start to come in. accordingly, i wouldn't hold not being a christian against anyone, but scoffing against the very idea of god because of MUH SCIENCE or MUH SUFFERING is arrogantly rejecting the theistic arguments in most cases. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963107) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:13 PM Author: elite topaz voyeur you faggots way overthink this shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963121) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:14 PM Author: Erotic plum sex offender out of all my regrets, taking philosophy and theology seriously is not one of them, bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963131) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:29 PM Author: maize insecure stock car (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963254) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:59 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963436) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:12 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station First pass would be to say that the reason it feels like something to value things and find worth in them - not the valuing itself, but the feeling - is because God gives us that ability. God is the source of worth.
Second pass would be that the substrate in which physical and mental things inhere, what ties it all together into a unitary being, is God. God is the ground of being. |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:24 PM Author: sooty site Personally, I try to develop the notion of God that is most consistent with (and, in fact, enhances) experience and rationality. It is relatively easy to dismiss, say, the Greek or Norse system of gods because the myths don't conform to the way the world works in practice. It is similarly easy to dismiss the popularized Christian or Islamic notions that prayer "changes God's mind" about anything. Prayer changes the one who prays, like meditation. There is literally nothing in modern science that dissuades me at all from my belief in God as such, because my views are compatible with it |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:38 PM Author: light mexican (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967714) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:32 PM Author: sooty site This turned into a great thread good work, bros |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:00 PM Author: Magenta Office Idiot when we treat each other with a modicum of respect, RIGOR and SCHOLARSHIP FLOURISH. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963439) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:56 PM Author: boyish sickened twinkling uncleanness kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967852) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:41 PM Author: french lascivious space 180 scholarly sweets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963341) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:55 PM Author: sooty site cr, I am SATIATED for the night (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963422) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 10:42 PM Author: aggressive new version dilemma No. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35963349) |
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Date: May 1st, 2018 11:06 PM Author: passionate dark church good work, you’re all really smart and jfc im dumb, this was sort of like trying to be 5’8 in the NBA.
If you weren’t a Phil major where did you find the time? But kudos. |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 2:05 PM Author: sooty site bump so day crew can enjoy some sweet treats (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967010) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 3:42 PM Author: passionate dark church Oh please, like day cru chipotle-guzzling mouth breathers could glean joy or understanding from any of this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35967749) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2018 4:18 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station The boy scouts thread is about to beat us (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35968026) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 1:50 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate there is no question that a large part of our evolutionary rise to the top of the animal kingdom was due to our outsized ability to spin stories and concoct myths. this engendered communal belonging among like-minded individuals as well as served to promote a more structured and obedient social framework. however, there is real doubt as to the usefulness of it all in today’s day and age especially when objective truths are constantly being seeked out and regarded as post-modern gods. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35987687) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 7:20 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Hot take shitlib (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35989482) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 7:51 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate exactly how many things do you want to be wrong about today? did you make some kind of bet with Rudolph? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35989626) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 7:53 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station lol science worshipping shitlib (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35989630) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 7:58 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate unlike you, I don’t worship anything
unlike you, I don’t flailingly try to reduce everything to politicth like a cuck when someone disagrees with me on one position
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Date: May 5th, 2018 8:02 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station lol humanist science worshipping shitlib (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35989667) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 8:06 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate Ayn Rand was a shitlib! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35989690) |
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Date: May 5th, 2018 11:23 PM Author: passionate dark church Ayn rand is low IQ book club. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35990753) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 12:28 AM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate and yet still not a shitlib despite being an atheist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35991018) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 12:30 AM Author: Erotic plum sex offender weirdly, a lot of non-shitlibs still make arguments more similar to shitlib atheists than traditionalists. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35991034) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 12:36 AM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate nah they must all be shitlibs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35991065) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 4:13 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station Any appeal predicated on the cogency of Ayn rand is an immediate and de facto loss (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35993578) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 4:35 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate u seem dumb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35993732) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 4:52 PM Author: Sick Smoky Station ron paul austrian economics transexual transhumanism enthusiast (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35993813) |
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Date: May 6th, 2018 5:52 PM Author: thirsty concupiscible associate an exaggerated admission of your error (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3965683&forum_id=2#35994197) |