Not really. Go ahead and defend this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015426)

Assumes it is immutable. That isn't a given. In any event, even today many people get the short end of the genetic stick.

"you think we've got social dysfunction now with our current state of the all-against-all chad-takes-all sexual market, just wait until the gulf between CHAD and your average guy triples over within a generation or two"

Except, within a few generations literally everyone except the kids of a few Luddites and immigrants will be CHAD. That is actually a really good thing.

"and the only people who will be able to afford the best therapies and enhancements are going to be our super wealthy, cementing their elite status in society even further whether or not it's actually deserved"

Agreed that this is a near term problem, but long term we can ensure that others also benefit.

"are you familiar with the end-game of the transhumanists? ideal man to them doesn't resemble man as we know him now in the slightest"

Nor should he. That's like saying a modern car doesn't resemble a horse and buggy. Yes, the goal is humanity evolving to something better. I don't see why that is a bad thing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015559)

Lol yeah right. We can't even get everyone healthcare, food or, shelter. The rich will leave all of us behind.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015602)

in chaotic or inefficient systems (like communism), at least personal grit and randomness allowed even people who were not genetic "chosen ones" to "maek" it.

in the modern, rationalist, capitalist universe, it is impossible to live unless you are preordained with life.

obviously, if you're part of the elect class of modern capitalism, the system works. but for the rest of us, total chaos communism is preferable to this dystopian hellscape

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015782)

I care about people that are actually useful and productive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015892)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015902)

I don't think I'm whining ITT at all. I just have a negative reaction to stupidity.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015921)

The only reason these are all "negative traits" is because people use genetic traits for positional purposes. if the average height is 6'8, then 6'6mos are the new incels. the arms race is always going to continue because we have a social and economic system that seeks to deliver what people want. and what people want is MORE MORE MORE and to lord over other people and pound them into the ground mercilessly.

your plan is to basically bring world peace by inventing more violent and gruesome weapons. it won't work.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015944)

I guess I'm just objecting to trans-humanistic nonsense that complicated genetic engineering will cure the fundamental defect in human nature

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016023)

I don't think I'm really saying that it will resolve every problem humans have. Plenty of "genetically gifted" people are fundamentally unhappy and unfulfilled and genetic engineering won't fix that. But far more people are unhappy because of problems that genetic engineering can fix.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016063)

but the more utopian and MUCH MORE SCIENTIFICALLY COMPLEX vision of genetic engineering that makes us more attractive, taller, etc. etc. is very very ambitious. and I think those things are only attractive BECAUSE they are immutable. if we make them mutable, I really do think people will move onto other things to obsess about.

fwiw, I strongly strongly support plastic surgery btw.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016095)

I don't disagree that there will be certain things that will just take longer for the technology to fix for purely pragmatic reasons. Now the really interesting questions are going to be things like the fact that most parents will 100% breed out any gene combination that codes for homosexuality. Basically, being gay just dies out in a single generation because of technology. Kind of crazy when you think about it. Not saying it is something that will be identified to be "fixed" early, but sooner or later...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016142)

very easy to attract gay men and they tend to be interesting, dynamic, fun people. meanwhile LJLLLLLL @ sludgepits HOLY FUCK. and that's only if you can cop one, which most non-chads probably can't.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016453)

we just disagree on how to fix it. You think we can fix it by basically having a way to convert hard work/striving ---> fixing ur genetic shortcomings. ie, genetic engineering could be an escape route for those not born in the chosen class.

I'm just pessimistic about that working, because I believe human nature is fundamentally rotten and that in an efficient market economy, they will innovate to find some way to hate on melvins/non-chads in a way that offers absolutely no escape route.

so I think there's no solution besides totally imprisoning almost all of society through collectivist measures, which Communism did well. humans will use any freedom they have to construct systems of torment and abuse for other people based on immutable characteristics - so the only way is to inoculate society through centralized abuse/control/dictatorship by one sovereign Leviathan-type.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016005)

I agree with this. And plenty of those even born into a "chosen class" have major issues that this can correct (such as cancer, heart disease, etc.). I just see it as a way to improve a human's lot in life in a way that was previously unavailable.

"I'm just pessimistic about that working, because I believe human nature is fundamentally rotten"

To be fair, I don't think this is intended to fix "human nature." I'm not sure anything will.

"so I think there's no solution besides totally imprisoning almost all of society through collectivist measures, which Communism did well"

It didn't, and the fact that you think it did makes me think you don't have a family history that originates in any Communist countries. Communism worked horribly and allowed those in power to now control literally everything. That big company you work for is now the government as well and controls the police, the courts and the prisons all at the same time. Piss your boss off at work? You're fired, and being unemployed is a crime, so the police come and arrest you. There are no checks and balances and no opportunity to escape it. In our society you can tell your boss to fuck off, try and start your own business or at least go work for someone else. In a communist society you can't do shit unless you want to end up in a gulag. People with more power are gods in your society and you're shit who will do as you're told. If you think human nature is rotten here, you should really see what life is like in a place like that. Take a look at North Korea to see what that kind of "paradise" is like.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016112)

actually, I'm from a former Communist country too! And my entire extended family basically wants Communism back ASAP. the collapse for Communism very gruesome for us, which is why they fled the country. they're still actually pretty well connected on the rather moribund far-left, which means nothing these a days.

at there was a semblance of society there. the Party was retarded and brutal, but at least it was there for you. the party cell provided social relations, communal stuff...and all of the things that humans need to live. very notable that the party cell managed to pair low-attractiveness individuals up. now, we have none of that stuff. if you're born on the outs, you're fucked. and your bosses often shit, but at least you had a chance to become a boss through TOTAL CHAOS communist inefficiency. now, if you're born on the bottom, you're just fucked end of story.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016176)

Would you agree that modern exercise equipment and plastic surgery makes people fundamentally more attractive? You seem to suggest you would answer in the affirmative.

Re: incels, that is part attractiveness and part mental issue. The latter will be the hardest to fix I'd imagine.

"And my entire extended family basically wants Communism back ASAP. they're actually pretty well connected on the rather moribund far-left."

I literally don't know anyone like this. How the fuck could you possibly want that shitshow back? Even in the 1980s everyone realized that the old Communism was dying and the goal became "how do we let it die without destroying the entire empire" (which, they totally failed at). Are you guys from E. Germany or something (which was heavily subsidized by the USSR)?

"very notable that the party cell managed to pair low-attractiveness individuals up. now, we have none of that stuff. if you're born on the outs, you're fucked"

Now that you mention it, this is true. Society was engineered in a way that even if you were shit, you sort of got pushed to still make it even if the definition of making it was a pretty low bar. But still, they were married, had kids, had a place to live, etc. Everyone had massively long vacations. Books/entertainment were subsidized. Now, these people are all basically outcasts. They don't get married at all and the system if anything creates massive barriers to them marrying. But a lot of this isn't because of Communism, a lot of that is just terrible policy. If we had Communism here I bet none of that shit that you liked will make it into the policy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016247)

IMO, attractiveness is the chief cause. most ugly people are also ugly on the inside because being ugly = being treated like shit ur entire life = develop rotten personality. so you're still either born fucked or not. an incel is born, not made.

not from the USSR, but didn't things go very badly in the former USSR in the decade after? the famous Russian cross (deaths spiking and all). Belarus, which has really kept up the old USSR system, seems to be nicer than Ukraine. anyways yes, our current system just relegates huge swaths of society to being total outcasts with absolutely no stake in society, meaning, or anything. this # is only growing everyday. a large group of us were truly better under Communism - and this doesn't correlate with "societal value". look at SAD with $2mm in the bank and $500k a year killing himself. maybe neo-communism would suck, but I truly can't see it being WORSE for the outcast class.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016420)

Things went badly for Russia in the decade after but that is because of how they did it and the fact that Yeltsin was in charge. Same for Ukraine. They went really well for China, otoh. The way you do it is a smooth transition, not a collapse. Ukraine did it even worse because it has been revolution after revolution after revolution, with more collapse after each one. Belarus basically did what China did. They're not really Communist anymore either but chose a slow and steady path. The USSR as a whole should have done exactly that.

SAD is a great example of someone who could be perfectly fine but isn't because he basically chooses to have insane expectations. He isn't a virgin. But he wanted more attractive women, felt the women didn't love him enough, etc. In Communism they would probably barely tolerate him but everyone would force them into it so that would be that. I don't know that this would really cause him to be better off. The trouble is that Communism doesn't fundamentally change human nature or remove greed. It just changes the rules of the game a bit and allows the winners power to degrees that would never be tolerated in our society.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016546)

also naw, China is a hellscape. it's hypergamy on steroids. have you seen the threads on height in China? I would rather live in Ukraine than China any day of the year. China is the worst place on earth for low-tier men.

tbqf, he was CR insofar that no woman he met loved him. because he was 5'4. i think communism would have left him better off by sheer virtue of being alive. you're right, Communism doesn't change human nature. but it constrains it because Communism doesn't give us everything we want. capitalism/freedom gives humans everything what they want. and what we want is EVIL.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016851)

i find that even many very smart people have problems conceptualizing and extrapolating the consequences of eugenics. there are pluses and minuses to every course of action, and the pluses of eugenics massively outweigh the minuses

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015646)

"we're already out on a wire here, the west (and the rest of the world attached at its hip) is in a death spiral"

Genetic engineering is the solution. Our problems come from the fact that those with the best genetics are no longer the ones breeding in our society. We're also not taking the best via immigration. The result is that each generation is getting shittier, not better. Meanwhile, we're still a democracy. This doesn't work.

"how much more social destruction and cultural dysfunction can we endure before Collapse?"

Let me respond with a variation of the above. Assuming genetic engineering doesn't happen and things continue to go the way they are, fast forward 50 years. What does the West look like?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015787)

saying that we can't pursue eugenics because our elites are disgusting and unworthy is frankly silly. we know our elites have to go - so let's get rid of them, and promote a worthy class of elites who is capable of reversing our societal rot.

it seems like you're conflating these 2 things when you don't need to. and also note: eugenics is happening whether anyone wants it to or not - the only question is whether or not we will incorporate it into elite policymaking. so we better get moving on reforming/replacing our elite class, because time is running out

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015968)

I would largely support giving you Leviathan-like unfettered absolute power and telling you to go to town with it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016057)

eugenics will actually be a mostly equalizing, egalitarian force, rather than the runaway socioeconomic divide that many people imagine it to be

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016144)

not to get off-topic here, but your argument reminds me of incels complaining that women won't mate with them and instead choose the men with good genes. eugenics is just us removing this agency from women (do we really trust them to do this?) and instead organizing reproduction around a set of human characteristics that are obviously desirable

hell, even cuturally enforced monogamy is a form of "eugenics." it's a deliberate policy aimed at increasing the rate of reproduction of a group of men with a certain set of desirable characteristics (responsible, hard-working, industrious)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015835)

Re: Christian religion, my retort would be that God gave humanity the tools to accomplish this, both intellectually and via raw materials. Same argument (both for and against) as people used when they declared that modern medicine was also humanity "playing God." And w/r/t transhumanism, we already have examples without genetic engineering via mechanical implants. The pacemaker, the cochlear implant, smart limbs that take electrical impulses from the nervous system and replace limbs lost. This is in the same series.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015816)

On the bright side, all of these idiotic proposals would be shockingly hard to engineer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016264)

in creating material wealth, capitalism has created a world that will sort out 80% of people as genetic chaff. capitalism means death for most of us.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015759)

The only reliable means of implementing eugenics in the foreseeable future are policy-based -- adjusting tax incentives to discourage low-income reproduction and/or encourage high-income reproduction; more aggressively sorting younger kids out by natural talent and tailoring the resources invested into each group; etc. -- not technological. Xo is full of retards who engage in the ultimate middling-IQ tell of being wildly overconfident in the progress of technology that they don't understand; the actual reality is that there's nothing other than selective abortion of the very worst genes that can be done, and we've already been doing that for years. ("Bu- but, what about CRISPR?! The *chinese*?!?!" HAHAHAHAHAHA, I love you retards!)

While the political barriers to more aggressive eugenic policies (than the ones I listed above) aren't as insurmountable as the technological barriers to philosophy-major-xo-poaster-pipe-dream tech-based solutions, they're still pretty formidable. And getting the public behind them would probably have unintended consequences in the form of altering societal values that have served us well for centuries. To use an analogy that even CRISPR-poaster-level dumbs can understand: pretty much everyone modestly intelligent agrees that right now our schools, universities, workplaces, public institutions, etc. overvalue the concept of hard work relative to natural talent (e.g., a kid with a 1570 and a 3.0 GPA is clearly more valuable than a valedictorian with a 1460, but the latter will get into better colleges). The point of doing this, though, is to create a forward-looking incentive system for hard work (which is more responsive to incentives, obviously, than IQ), *not* based on an erroneously high retrospective valuation of hard work. A shift toward 'eugenic thinking' among the public could end up curbing creativity, independent thinking, and entrepreneurism, slowly turning us into a pathetically dull and lifeless civilization little better than the contemporary chinese.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36015848)

"Alexa, blank bump IronMonkey!"

"Alexa?"

Oh fuck, Alexa, you mean the 753,021 articles written by on-deadline tech reporters for money (that they wouldn't make writing the story "AI tech largely shit, progress not particularly promising") sourced from the capital-hungry tech developers themselves are all bullshit, your technology is shockingly worthless despite jaw-dropping investment in it, and your "AI" isn't even comparable to that of a chicken, let alone a toddler? Well fuck.

But I'm sure the fucking **chinese**, who can't even educate their own students domestically, are just a few years away from cranking out 6'5" slanty-eyed, high-IQ, creative and risk-taking ubermenschen!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016082)

So we can do more than just aborting embryos with genetic defects.

I don't see the value of building straw ubermenschen just to knock them down.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016427)

"The Chinese word for eugenics, yousheng, is used explicitly as a positive in almost all conversations about PGD."

http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/08/embryo-selection-in-china-nature.html

China’s embrace of embryo selection raises thorny questions (Nature)

Fertility centres are making a massive push to increase preimplantation genetic diagnosis in a bid to eradicate certain diseases.

... Early experiments are beginning to show how genome-editing technologies such as CRISPR might one day fix disease-causing mutations before embryos are implanted. But refining the techniques and getting regulatory approval will take years. PGD has already helped thousands of couples. And whereas the expansion of PGD around the world has generally been slow, in China, it is starting to explode.

... Genetic screening during pregnancy for chromosomal abnormalities linked to maternal age has taken off throughout the country, and many see this as a precursor to wider adoption of PGD.

Although Chinese fertility doctors were late to the game in adopting the procedure, they have been pursuing a more aggressive, comprehensive and systematic path towards its use there than anywhere else. The country’s central government, known for its long-term thinking, has over the past decade stepped up efforts to bring high-quality health care to the people, and its current 5-year plan has made reproductive medicine, including PGD, a priority ...

Comprehensive figures are difficult to come by, but estimates from leading PGD providers show that China’s use of the technique already outpaces that in the United States, and it is growing up to five times faster.

... there are concerns about the push to select for non-disease-related traits, such as intelligence or athletic ability. The ever-present spectre of eugenics lurks in the shadows. But in China, although these concerns are considered, most thoughts are focused on the benefits of the procedures.

... And the centres with licences to do PGD have created a buzz in their race to claim firsts with the technology. In 2015, CITIC-Xiangya boasted China’s first “cancer-free baby”. The boy’s parents had terminated a prior pregnancy after genetic testing showed the presence of retinoblastoma, a cancer that forms in the eyes during early development and often leads to blindness. In their next try, the couple used PGD to ensure that the gene variant that causes retinoblastoma wasn’t present. Other groups have helped couples to avoid passing on a slew of conditions: short-rib-polydactyly syndrome, Brittle-bone disease, Huntington’s disease, polycystic kidney disease and deafness, among others. ...

Joe Leigh Simpson, a medical geneticist at Florida International University in Miami, and former president of the Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis International Society, is impressed by the quality and size of the Chinese fertility clinics. They “are superb and have gigantic units. They came out of nowhere in just 2 or 3 years,” he says. ...

People in China seem more likely to feel an obligation to bear the healthiest child possible than to protect an embryo. The Chinese appetite for using genetic technology to ensure healthy births can be seen in the rapid rise of pregnancy testing for Down’s syndrome and other chromosomal abnormalities. Since Shenzhen-based BGI introduced a test for Down’s syndrome in 2013, it has sold more than 2 million kits; half of those sales were in the past year.

... The Chinese word for eugenics, yousheng, is used explicitly as a positive in almost all conversations about PGD. Yousheng is about giving birth to children of better quality. Not smoking during pregnancy is also part of yousheng. ...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36016394)

But if we are talking about non-compulsory treatments, procedures, etc., I don't think you need to have any presupposition about your own qualifications.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36017612)

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160804-china-may-be-the-future-of-genetic-enhancement

https://gizmodo.com/china-has-already-gene-edited-86-people-with-crispr-1822297524

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3972506&forum_id=2#36017928)