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German soldiers in WWII were superior but only lost due to numbers?

Charles XII MUST weigh in on this. http://www.unz.com/art...
Talented henna deer antler dilemma
  06/16/18
few dispute this
Thriller Fat Ankles Mad Cow Disease
  06/16/18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFrcl6VGrDQ
Multi-colored nighttime tanning salon
  06/16/18
...duh?
Fluffy Preventive Strike
  06/16/18
I mean this is undeniable by an conceivable metric. Even...
spectacular orchestra pit international law enforcement agency
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
No idea wrt to accuracy, but sick poast
iridescent messiness cuckoldry
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
Talk to dirty to me about how nazi rifle squads overcame rof...
iridescent messiness cuckoldry
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
Not in dat dere discord so poast SCHOLARSHIP 4 ALL
iridescent messiness cuckoldry
  06/16/18
180 scholarship
confused beady-eyed gaming laptop
  06/16/18
Ehh, I take minor issue with a few things here and there, bu...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
As for the OP's question, they didn't lose because of number...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
You’re describing one of the keys to Roman geostrategy (and ...
Passionate angry indian lodge
  06/16/18
If the Romans suffered in a single campaign anywhere near th...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
In relative terms Romans suffered similar if not worse losse...
Passionate angry indian lodge
  06/16/18
See my response to Charles below. It is not my claim that th...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
I understand that; we're both trying to tell you that your c...
Passionate angry indian lodge
  06/18/18
In the first three years of the Second Punic War Rome absolu...
Boyish toaster
  06/16/18
I am familiar with this period of Roman history. This topic ...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
TBF, Charles is about the only poaster where I would feel th...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/17/18
theyre definitely on the internet and they even infiltrate g...
canary library liquid oxygen
  06/18/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/25/18
You may find this working paper a helpful read: https://w...
Boyish toaster
  06/17/18
This was good -- thanks for sharing.
Passionate angry indian lodge
  06/25/18
German troops were much more willing to sacrifice themselves...
flushed rigpig
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
Yeah, I know about Pavlov's House, but I also know that ther...
flushed rigpig
  06/17/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
This is a good post, but a few comments: -Overall, you're...
Boyish toaster
  06/16/18
Ok, a lot of specific, random examples (talking about the Ch...
comical bright stage party of the first part
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/17/18
I will try to dig up the studies later. And I don't feel too...
comical bright stage party of the first part
  06/17/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
Nah; British were as good but outnumbered
Bistre heady box office really tough guy
  06/16/18
LOL, British troops were crap throughout. Read up on Singapo...
flushed rigpig
  06/16/18
A lot of that was their leadership and strategy though, espe...
Contagious gold indirect expression national
  06/17/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/17/18
https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1002673694936829953 ...
Snowy pocket flask parlour
  06/16/18
I guess, but they got fucked in the brutal winters on the Ea...
slap-happy hairraiser elastic band
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
This article seems kind of weird to me. Like, is it really i...
Boyish toaster
  06/16/18
twitter is worth getting for @realtimewwii alone
Snowy pocket flask parlour
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/16/18
...
Contagious gold indirect expression national
  06/16/18
but for the American soldier, who is the greatest fighting s...
buff maniacal gas station
  06/16/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/17/18
I would say early in WW2, pound for pound the Germans had th...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/17/18
atom bomb would not have been used on whites
Thriller Fat Ankles Mad Cow Disease
  06/17/18
Relevance?
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/17/18
Sure it would have.
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/17/18
True. Allied area bombing incinerated entire civilian popul...
Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference
  06/18/18
...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/19/18
"That said, simply "more soldiers" wasn't eno...
Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo
  06/17/18
For the Russians, sure (but that comment wasn't about the Ru...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/17/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/25/18
*steps into mic* (El Tri)
magenta electric bawdyhouse generalized bond
  06/17/18
https://twitter.com/realtimewwii/status/1008271940962922496?...
Snowy pocket flask parlour
  06/17/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1002672391414337537 ...
Snowy pocket flask parlour
  06/18/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
...
Salmon Dopamine
  06/18/18
German carbiner was garbage compared to the M-1. P-51 outcl...
Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference
  06/18/18
Stukas were dive bombers. They wouldn't perform well again...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/18/18
There's a lot to be said that, despite the defeats you liste...
Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference
  06/18/18
I would say that Kursk was the point where Germany no longer...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/18/18
There is no way to ever know, but the German army in Russia ...
Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference
  06/18/18
I'm just going to note this here: https://en.wikipedia.or...
Histrionic Yapping Hell
  06/18/18
https://twitter.com/realtimewwii/status/1009048825695277057?...
Snowy pocket flask parlour
  06/19/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 6:52 PM
Author: Talented henna deer antler dilemma

Charles XII MUST weigh in on this.

http://www.unz.com/article/german-soldiers-of-world-war-ii/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257551)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 6:53 PM
Author: Thriller Fat Ankles Mad Cow Disease

few dispute this

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257554)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 6:59 PM
Author: Multi-colored nighttime tanning salon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFrcl6VGrDQ

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257581)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 7:07 PM
Author: Fluffy Preventive Strike

...duh?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257613)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 7:10 PM
Author: spectacular orchestra pit international law enforcement agency

I mean this is undeniable by an conceivable metric.

Even during the late war western front in which the Germans had near zero fuel, complete loss of the skies and were scraping the bottom of the barrel talent-wise, they still did fairly well all things considered. If not for blowing their load in the Battle of the Bulge and the pressures from the eastern front, they could have held off for a while.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257625)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:01 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257760)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:27 PM
Author: iridescent messiness cuckoldry

No idea wrt to accuracy, but sick poast

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257853)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:32 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257863)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:40 PM
Author: iridescent messiness cuckoldry

Talk to dirty to me about how nazi rifle squads overcame rof difference between them and papasha/m1

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257892)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:43 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257900)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:46 PM
Author: iridescent messiness cuckoldry

Not in dat dere discord so poast SCHOLARSHIP 4 ALL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257914)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:49 PM
Author: confused beady-eyed gaming laptop

180 scholarship

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257931)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:23 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

Ehh, I take minor issue with a few things here and there, but largely in agreement. However, your post is largely unresponsive to OP's inquiry, which concerned German soldiers (and presumably also German officers). For the vast majority of the war, the Germans were a league above everyone else, for the simple fact that they gained experience early ans no one lasted long enough against them to field a fighting force with similar experience until the end of the war.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258035)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:50 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258106)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:33 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

As for the OP's question, they didn't lose because of numbers. They lost due to the remarkable political stability of the Soviets while incurring millions of casualties. This simple fact is appreciated by almost no one. The Soviets sent army after to army to the front while Germany was diving headfirst into Russia, only to have the armies completely obliterated. The Soviets just kept raising new armies to replace their losses. I struggle to think of any other civilization in human history that could persevere through what the Soviets experienced.

So, I guess in a sense it was numbers, but I personally believe it was the Soviets ability to continue marshalling its manpower in its defense that was the true determining factor.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258055)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:39 PM
Author: Passionate angry indian lodge

You’re describing one of the keys to Roman geostrategy (and geostrategic success) throughout the Republican Era. (And this was even true albeit to a lesser degree during the Imperial Era.)—you could be writing an intro shell for a classics course. Who would have thought—societal endurance and fortitude (and reserve manpower) in the face of hardship tends to lend itself to strategic success. The Soviets are also a good example of this, and a historically recent one, but they’re not singular.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258061)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:43 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

If the Romans suffered in a single campaign anywhere near the extent of Soviet losses, the Roman star would have collapsed or accepted some peace having the same effect.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258072)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:48 PM
Author: Passionate angry indian lodge

In relative terms Romans suffered similar if not worse losses plenty of times, eg during the Punics (probably best example), the Civil Wars, the Social War—there’s this myth that the Romans were unbeatable but they weren’t—what they were was resilient. In absolute terms of course there’s no comparison but that’s not really a useful referent.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258090)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:35 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

See my response to Charles below. It is not my claim that the Romans were constantly kicking ass and never suffered defeat, only that the Soviet losses far exceeded that of the Romans.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258556)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 18th, 2018 1:45 PM
Author: Passionate angry indian lodge

I understand that; we're both trying to tell you that your claim isn't historically accurate. Frankly I doubt the Romans are the only counterpoint out there and if we think about it long enough we can come up with others. Fun discussion thanks.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265986)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:29 PM
Author: Boyish toaster

In the first three years of the Second Punic War Rome absolutely took losses on that level. Trebia, Lake Trasimene, and Cannae were all sufficiently devastating to bring a weak state to terms, and Rome survived all three defeats in less than two years, then soldiered on to survive several other severe defeats as well (notably the Upper Baetis).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258282)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:54 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

I am familiar with this period of Roman history. This topic has sufficiently piqued my interest that I am going to try and track down some statistics on Soviet and Roman losses as a proportion to their active fighting forces and their population as a whole. I would be shocked if these numbers do not definitively establish that Soviet losses far surpassed those of the Romans.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I was not implying that Rome was a weak state. It could and did take its lumps. My claim is that the Soviets demonstrated an ability unparalleled throughout human history to keep the gears of war churning in the face extreme adversity.

I also want to note that I am not a sympathizer of the communists, leftists, and certainly not Dems.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258392)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:16 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258485)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:44 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

TBF, Charles is about the only poaster where I would feel that comment is necessary while discussing this subject. Further, that part of my comment was to dispel the notion that I am a rabid Soviet sympathizer that twists and contorts his perception of history to support a perverted, idealized version of Soviet communism. These types are every on the internet wherever history discussed, and I am guessing Charles has dealt with these people in the past.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258571)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 1:10 AM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258868)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 18th, 2018 2:23 AM
Author: canary library liquid oxygen

theyre definitely on the internet and they even infiltrate game design. longbowmen are OP in every single game relative to historical truth, for the simple reason that most game companies are anglo not french

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263805)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 25th, 2018 5:49 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36308035)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 12:08 AM
Author: Boyish toaster

You may find this working paper a helpful read:

https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/070706.pdf

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258632)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 25th, 2018 5:42 PM
Author: Passionate angry indian lodge

This was good -- thanks for sharing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36307996)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:43 PM
Author: flushed rigpig

German troops were much more willing to sacrifice themselves for the nation even when things were hopeless than Allied troops were. They had been raised to believe that was their purpose.

Allied troops were primarily individuals, like all of us are. Which is better in most regards, but not when it comes to soldiering.

E.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_and_Country_debate

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258071)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:13 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258470)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 8:50 AM
Author: flushed rigpig

Yeah, I know about Pavlov's House, but I also know that there were several times during the war when literally several hundred thousand Red Army troops surrendered en masse (e.g. Kiev encirclement, Vyazma-Bryansk encirclement.) Compare that to when the Germans held out in Stalingrad for a couple of months after they were encircled in the dead of winter.

A large percentage of Russian troops were dumb confused peasants who just wanted the war to be over with as quickly as possible. Stalin knew this, which is why he put NKVD troops with machine guns behind his own troops.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36259497)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 18th, 2018 12:07 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265302)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:10 PM
Author: Boyish toaster

This is a good post, but a few comments:

-Overall, you're right that German weaponry was often badly handled on the production end. They had too many different vehicles and many were overengineered, leading to frequent breakdowns and a constant shortage of spare parts, among other things. Germany was already getting outproduced by its enemies and this exacerbated things. That said, early in the war the Germans did make better use of some less obvious bits of equipment. For example, excellent German panzer performance wasn't because of better armor or gun power, or even vastly superior unit organization (France and Russia also had specialized concentrated armor units). Instead, for the early war, much of Germany's consistently better success was based on superior use of radios; better radio communications made it MUCH easier for several German tanks to coordinate units and they regularly steamrolled similarly-sized forces thanks to this advantage. This thread on BoardGameGeek actually has some good content in it, especially from the user JasonC: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2003963/designing-operational-problems-france-1940

-France did in fact anticipate an attack on the Benelux territories; their problem was not that this attack was a surprise but rather that they overreacted to it and sent their best forces plunging into the Low Countries in an attempt to keep the battle off French soil; this caused all of them to be surrounded and captured when the Germans smashed through the Ardennes (where the attack was a genuine surprise).

-In general the German military was at its apex from around 1940-1942; it was steadily declining after that point and there are ample cases of it getting beaten straight up after that.

-As you say, comparing German forces to Allied forces straight-up is kind of a silly exercise. The Allies had vastly more resources and could afford to act differently to bring about victory. For example, even if a Tiger tank could defeat any other enemy tank head-to-head, that didn't really mean shit if the Allies could produce 10 tanks for every Tiger, using 5 of them to keep the Tiger occupied while the other 5 help infantry smash through the German lines. Yeah, the Germans did better "pound for pound" but that doesn't mean much if they're still getting creamed. Arguably they'd have been better off fielding a "worse" army that had slightly more heavy equipment overall.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258200)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:04 PM
Author: comical bright stage party of the first part

Ok, a lot of specific, random examples (talking about the Char for Christ's sake) and tangents here, but you don't address the statistical support for German infantry casualty rates being lower (not including '45 when you had teenagers and old men fighting), or the extent to which the Allies relied on air support to pish through Western Europe.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258436)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 1:06 AM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258850)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 7:16 AM
Author: comical bright stage party of the first part

I will try to dig up the studies later. And I don't feel too strongly about this, but it's an interesting topic and question.

This isn't persuasive, but here is an article by Max Hastings from 1985 on the issue. Interestingly, he claims that most of the post-war feel good propoganda DOWNPLAYED the extent to which the Allies were beat by German infantry.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1985/05/05/their-wehrmacht-was-better-than-our-army/0b2cfe73-68f4-4bc3-a62d-7626f6382dbd/?utm_term=.d29891dc1f6c

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36259397)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 18th, 2018 1:42 AM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263748)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 8:35 PM
Author: Bistre heady box office really tough guy

Nah; British were as good but outnumbered

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36257869)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:48 PM
Author: flushed rigpig

LOL, British troops were crap throughout. Read up on Singapore, the collapse at Tobruk (mainly South African troops, but still), etc. The only big win they had was at Second El Alamein and that was with overwhelming numbers. US troops weren't great by any means in the attempted breakout from Normandy, but they were much better than the hyper-cautious Brits.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258095)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 1:04 AM
Author: Contagious gold indirect expression national

A lot of that was their leadership and strategy though, especially early in the war. I don't think you can blame Singapore on the rank and file troops.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258837)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 1:17 AM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258893)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 9:40 PM
Author: Snowy pocket flask parlour

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1002673694936829953

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1008058279061319681

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258065)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:12 PM
Author: slap-happy hairraiser elastic band

I guess, but they got fucked in the brutal winters on the Eastern front - LJL Germans done here.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258208)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 18th, 2018 1:44 AM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263750)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:22 PM
Author: Boyish toaster

This article seems kind of weird to me. Like, is it really in the popular imagination that the Germans were some shitty ineffective force in World War 2? I'm pretty sure that stereotype is most often applied to the Soviets, while the Germans are routinely portrayed as very elite and capable with tons of heavy equipment. Even the author only seems able to cite literal World War 2 propaganda, as if that matters in the slightest.

Also, I'm pretty sure the German reputation as zombies unthinkingly obeying orders isn't directly related to their combat smarts; it probably derives from the idea the Germans were brutes who committed a ton of atrocities, which, during WW2 at least, they certainly did.

Also lol at neocon hack Max Boot being an "influential author." Sadly it may be true.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258256)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:27 PM
Author: Snowy pocket flask parlour

twitter is worth getting for @realtimewwii alone

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258273)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:14 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258477)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 11:20 PM
Author: Contagious gold indirect expression national



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258506)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 16th, 2018 10:57 PM
Author: buff maniacal gas station

but for the American soldier, who is the greatest fighting spirit and body in history since the civil war (the ultimate crucible), the world would be a different place

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36258409)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 1:44 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260550)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 17th, 2018 2:38 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

I would say early in WW2, pound for pound the Germans had the best army. Morale was probably the highest of any of the armies. The UK and France had no desire to go back into a WW. Italy was ambivalent during WW1, flipped sides, and repeated this during WW2. Russia/the USSR had just suffered a massive officer purge. Americans largely felt like it wasn't their war. Yes, the Germans didn't always have the best weapons, and in addition to the Char tank example, I can point out the KV1 example from the USSR, where there were similar stories, including one incident where two KV1s ambushed a column of German tanks that were on road where going off was impossible due to terrain. They knocked out the front tank and the rear tank and proceeded to take out the rest of the column one tank at a time. There was nothing the Germans could do because none of their tanks could penetrate the KV1's armor.

That said, simply "more soldiers" wasn't enough. They needed more production - weapons, tanks, planes, etc. Also, long term they would have lost anyway due to the atomic bomb, assuming they didn't have enough to outright win early on.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260834)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 2:42 PM
Author: Thriller Fat Ankles Mad Cow Disease

atom bomb would not have been used on whites

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260851)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 2:46 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

Relevance?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260863)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 11:31 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

Sure it would have.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263406)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 2:01 PM
Author: Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference

True. Allied area bombing incinerated entire civilian populations out of respect for our fellow whites.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266139)



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Date: June 19th, 2018 4:10 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36273303)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 2:46 PM
Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend Water Buffalo

"That said, simply "more soldiers" wasn't enough. They needed more production - weapons, tanks, planes, etc. Also, long term they would have lost anyway due to the atomic bomb, assuming they didn't have enough to outright win early on."

Lol at your conclusion. Yes, ramping up production was important. However, the most critical shortage faced by the Russians was junior and mid-level officers who were competent tacticians. Hell, you even touched upon this issue by noting the officer purges preceding WWII.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260862)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 11:35 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

For the Russians, sure (but that comment wasn't about the Russians). For the Germans, they had great troops all the way up, at least early to mid-war. If they merely had more of them that wouldn't have been enough. But if they had say, double the troops but also double the tanks, planes, guns, etc. then they probably could have captured Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad and the USSR's oil fields, Rommel could have held off the US and the British, and that might have changed the course of the war.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263412)



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Date: June 25th, 2018 5:52 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36308051)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 2:41 PM
Author: magenta electric bawdyhouse generalized bond

*steps into mic*

(El Tri)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36260845)



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Date: June 17th, 2018 11:39 PM
Author: Snowy pocket flask parlour

https://twitter.com/realtimewwii/status/1008271940962922496?s=21

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36263427)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 4:11 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36267047)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 4:34 PM
Author: Snowy pocket flask parlour

https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/1002672391414337537

This seemed like the worst blunder ever.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36267194)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 5:18 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36267458)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 12:57 PM
Author: Salmon Dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265663)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 1:22 PM
Author: Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference

German carbiner was garbage compared to the M-1. P-51 outclassed every plane the Germans had except the me262. Sherman M36 tank performed fine against German tanks and could be produced at a fraction of the time & cost. Germany never had a masses produced heavy bomber. Germany still utilized horses for transport and some of the German aircraft performed horribly against modern aircraft (stukas). The German surface fleet made about as much of an impact on the war as did the Confederate fleet during the US Civil war. German Uboats were effective until the Allies developed tactics that worked, and at that point they were wiped out.

German tactics were advanced but no more so than the US towards the end of the war.

Against a prepared foe, the German army did not perform amazingly: Kursk & Bulge.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265832)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 1:44 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

Stukas were dive bombers. They wouldn't perform well against any aircraft. They had a very limited use case which was pinpoint strikes while leaving most infrastructure intact, which was what Germany wanted as an invading country. The US was fighting a defensive war. Mass heavy bombers are preferred for that.

A lot of your commentary is only relevant very late in the war (P-51s). Kursk and the Bulge both happened after the Germans had their back broken already. The war was lost for them at Moscow/Stalingrad/Leningrad.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36265972)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 1:52 PM
Author: Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference

There's a lot to be said that, despite the defeats you listed about, the was wasn't decided until Kursk. Those defeats were pretty early, 41/42.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266056)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 1:57 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

I would say that Kursk was the point where Germany no longer had any ability to win. But Germany was crippled after those 3 defeats already and was clearly losing the war. But if you were sitting at that point, you could at least see how Germany could still turn it around.

Kursk actually was the last attempt at a German offensive on the Eastern Front.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266104)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 2:05 PM
Author: Lemon Cuck Athletic Conference

There is no way to ever know, but the German army in Russia had the ability to conduct serious offensive campaigns until they decided to stroll into 100 miles deep of defensive positions that had been constructed over 6 months or so.

Should the Germans not do that, who knows what would happen. The battle was similar to Gettysburg and had a similar effect on the war as Gettysburg. If you draw that parallel, Kursk was the battle that decided the war, not the defeats at Leningrad/ Moscow/ Stalingrad. Nobody says the US Civil War was over at Shiloh.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266171)



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Date: June 18th, 2018 3:07 PM
Author: Histrionic Yapping Hell

I'm just going to note this here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

Now, look at the numbers for men, guns, etc.

Germans:

Operation Citadel:

780,900 men[2]

2,928 tanks[2]

9,966 guns and mortars[3]

Soviet counteroffensive phase:

940,900 men[2]

3,253 tanks[2]

9,467 guns and mortars[4]

2,110 aircraft[5]

Soviets:

Operation Citadel:

1,910,361 men[6]

5,128 tanks[6]

25,013 guns and mortars[3]

Soviet counteroffensive phase:

2,500,000 men[6]

7,360 tanks[6]

47,416 guns and mortars[4]

2,792[7][c] to 3,549[8][d] aircraft

The Germans were shockingly outmanned and outgunned both at the beginning and the end. Compare to earlier battles where the Germans often had advantages or were similar in men and equipment. Such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

Just on those numbers alone, it should be clear that the Germans were going to have a very hard time pulling out a victory.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36266596)



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Date: June 19th, 2018 12:42 PM
Author: Snowy pocket flask parlour

https://twitter.com/realtimewwii/status/1009048825695277057?s=21

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4003564&forum_id=2#36271991)