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Physicists sort of zeroing in on fact universe springs from a "consciousness"
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:01 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area cr? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451038) |
Date: July 18th, 2018 10:02 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann are they dualists or idealists? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451043) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:46 PM Author: Vermilion razzle circlehead piazza are they dualists or gladiators? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452195) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:02 AM Author: Iridescent autistic menage Explain (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451044) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:03 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area This is what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV5Vptx0iJw |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:06 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann pretty good (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451067) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:07 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area What we make of this is another question, but it's interesting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451078) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:08 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann yeah basically nothing really. sure this guy sells a lot of books though (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451084) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:07 AM Author: gaped school weird plato and aristotle were right all along, who could've guessed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451073) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:07 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451082) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:08 AM Author: yellow telephone (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451087) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:08 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area They were literally the smartest people in the past several thousand years. No one has had better ideas since. Whatever was in the water in ancient Greece was something special.
Plato even postulated the existence of atoms in a time when people still died at like age 30 on the regular. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:24 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus "They were literally the smartest people in the past several thousand years." I don't think so. They were definitely supersmart though.
But also, to the guy who said, "Huh, they were right all along!" actually, the underlying premise OP put up is bullshit quantum woo quackery, so you sort of sound silly saying, "huh, Plato, Aristotle, they were right all along!" |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:31 AM Author: gaped school i posted this before i watched the video, but have little doubt a teleological view of physics is essentially correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451258) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:42 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area What if there are infinite universes and this one just happens to be one that has the right variables to produce something like human beings? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451319) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:46 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus I think THIS is more likely, at least w regard to our current understanding of the maths. It is more parsimonious in that respect, at least. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451353) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:45 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus It may be! Who knows. But Be wary of your own "wants" in this regard. Remember, Humans seek narratives and purpose and cause in things just as an evolutionary quirk--it doesn't always mean there's a bear behind that bush. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451344) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:48 AM Author: gaped school are mathematicals universal? is there a conceivable world where e^pi+i + 1 does not equal zero? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451365) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:03 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus I'm not following you. You may have made some unfounded underlying assumptions. If you are asking me whether mathematics suggests an underlying reality beyond what we detect w our senses, I would agree. And I believe Plato was right and brilliant on this point, as was Pythagoras to a different degree. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:06 AM Author: gaped school alright, we have some common ground, but probably disagree about what it means. i take the underlying reality to be logically prior to the physical, and causally linked to the form it takes, such that the world has teleological causation. i take it this connection is where you disagree (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451467) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:13 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus If what you are saying is that you believe that on some level there was some sort of prime mover or conscious agent that caused the universe to come into being, I don't see how you get that from the fact that it appears the mathematics suggests both a world behind the veil we see and a multitude of those worlds.
I still don't see why you think (if you do) that my second point about mathematics increases the probability of a prime mover or creative entity. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I don't see how you connect the dots without making unfounded assumptions. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:21 AM Author: gaped school that there is a universal world of unchanging forms, including mathematicals, makes it seem likely there is a telos to the world that implies a super-cosmic intelligence. you can call this unfounded, but we're getting to the level of first principles, and eventually you have to choose to believe in some, at least until something better comes along or you realize how you cannot possibly be right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451593) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:26 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann i dont know why you need to make mathematics universal to get to teleology. math is too tied up with its physical correlates to be dispositive (i.e. its equally as likely that mathemtical forms are implementation (brain) specific). the intentional character of mental states and their irreducibility to non-intentional physical states gets you intentionality at the heart of reality. the source of intentionality get your Logos and then you win. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451645) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:37 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Well I can appreciate the "you have to choose to believe in some, at least until something better comes along or you realize how you cannot possibly be right" component of this but again--one should be suspicious ANY time you find yourself going to an invisible supernatural actor as an ultimate explanation without any support for the assertion that there is an invisible supernatural actor.
The more parsimonious, and safer viewpoint, is that until there is evidence to support a creative demiurge or agent, we shouldn't assume there is one.
Remember, we have a natural tendency as impure thinkers to go very speedily toward assuming there is a conscious actor behind natural phenomena. This drift is a cognitive error or blindspot we have in the evolution of consciousness--the same as the blindspot we have in our vision.
It is part of my project mentally to get as clean as I can be in my thought on difficult subjects and part of that means watching out for those little quirks of reasoning such as imputing agency we all have baked in as humans who have evolved over the millenia. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:46 AM Author: gaped school i was a hardcore atheist when i was younger (i've posted about this i think) so i get where you're coming from, but i'm going to insist that i think it's better to be clear about what your first principles are and be consistent about them (while still being skeptical enough to rethink them if better evidence comes around) than to value skepticism in and of itself. if i'm committing a fallacy by assuming order implies a creative intelligence, then so be it man, but it seems like the best fallacy to commit in that case. i'm not sure xo zapffe is wrong and human consciousness is not just a quirk of evolution without any greater meaning. but order really seems to imply an orderer, man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451797) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:51 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus I wasn't really talking about skepticism though, which is a different sort of thing than what I was trying to get at. I was only trying to talk about how it's important to see things as clearly as possible, and how belief in a supernatural actor when there isn't any evidence supporting it is a cognitive or evolutionary quirk we should be sensitive to in asking deep questions.
As for your current belief in a creator, I think if you examine things coolly and carefully over a period of months, reading up on all your initial objections, you'll see that I'm not so far out from the optimal way of looking at things, if you want to get at some underlying "truth" claims.
Keep in mind, the best atheists are, really are, smart as hell and as dispassionate and considered as totally alien physicists on the subject of a demiurge. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:59 AM Author: gaped school "I was only trying to talk about how it's important to see things as clearly as possible" "I think if you examine things coolly and carefully" there's a lot more packed into these statements than a purely dispassionate position. you are making assumptions, e.g. about induction and certain kinds of inductive proof, that i'm not ready to make. we're both "thinking clearly," i think, but from different starting points. just a difference in a priori assumptions. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:03 PM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Well, look at this:
The world is here--at least there is something we are in the midst of. What evidence do you have that there is a demiurge who created it? If the answer is none, or "could be," w a host of other explanations equally viable for the phenomena you think is evidence, then the clearest conclusion--for right now--is: I can't make that assumption until there is some evidentiary support for it.
I know its not human nature to think like this-but the tool itself is warped--our consciousness has built into it an impulse to see agency, the same as we have an impulse to see faces in everything--so we should proceed w care in our evaluation of the "evidence" or what is proffered as "evidence" of the presence of a demiurge.
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:15 PM Author: gaped school my evidence is that there is order. you're acting like i'm making many and complicated assumptions, but my point was you're also making assumptions--about consciousness, evolution, etc. my argument has the benefit of occam's razor, in fact. but i'm not sure if this is productive dude, we have different basic assumptions, and you're evidently not willing to discuss yours as assumptions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451981) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:54 PM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Not really. I'm not making assumptions, or I'm making fewer than you.
As for yr assumption that "order" is evidence of a demiurge, much of the universe is a place of Terrible disorder! Also, please examine the concept of Emergence, which is order from random processes, and simply follows rules of physics and biology without the need for a supernatural agent.
"order" such as it is, isn't really evidence of the presence of an active agent.
Dont get mad at me, I'm just showing you where you may have gone wrong. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:54 PM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann this can't be real. "I'm not making assumptions". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452264) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 1:59 PM Author: gaped school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452724) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:12 PM Author: Confused Wonderful Sound Barrier Principal's Office It's like you don't realize you're arguing with spaceporn. The logical leaps he routinely makes are astounding only at first until you accept this is a 110 is guy who smokes a lot of pot and probably reads a lot of books halfway through. Not stupid but consistently demonstrates cloudy thinking...perhaps there's a reason he's so focused on "thinking clearly" about things: he probably gets told a lot that he's not doing so. There's also obviously a significant psychological trauma lurking at the surface of spaceporns conscious which for whatever reason manifests in bouts of irrational denial.
Tldr, arguing with spaceporn is like arguin with a 20 year old community college psych major |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:19 PM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus not really responsive to any points and just sort of calling me names, dude.
I know its painful to have it pointed out that your paradigms are in large part thought magnets that have evolved but aren't really connected w seeing the world as it is. I know the natural impulse is to push that sort of idea away from you as far as possible because it causes a great deal of distress, but try not to take it out on me while we are discussing this.
But there's no need to call me low IQ and irrational, or a 20 year old community college psych major in response.
As for "arguing w spaceporn"--I think its clear I was discussing w another speaker, not the speaker you claimed I was arguing with. please try to read more carefully. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 7:29 PM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann Thought magnets that only Spaceporn can repel! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36455271) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:01 PM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann its funny how you write like you have answers other people havent considered, when its a common phenomenon for someone to be an atheist in adolescence but grow out of it, so that most people youre talking to (including den of proles, who has explicitly said this) have already considered your position and rejected it. its also funny when you make appeals to atheists being "smart", as if smart individuals dont disagree and the existence of intelligent atheists is dispositive of its coherence. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451892) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:25 PM Author: gaped school cr on the posture of "if you just consider the evidence you'll see..." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452037) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:15 PM Author: Confused Wonderful Sound Barrier Principal's Office Didmt you see he told you to "think about it for a while." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452882) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:21 PM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Yes. think about it for a while. it's heavy stuff the first few times you think about it, and it has implications concerning loved ones we've lost, etc, that make it very painful and prompt an almost violent response. But we are not animals and can control how we respond to novel stimuli. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452926) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:24 PM Author: gaped school i'm almost middle aged, this is far from the first time i've thought about whether metaphysics is real, dude (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452937) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 2:25 PM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus But that's not really what I was asking you to think about, was it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452947) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:18 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451574) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:50 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann lmfao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451374) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:51 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann "the universe isn't teleological because evolution isn't teleological because the universe isnt teleological because evolution isnt't teleological because the universe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451381) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:10 AM Author: sickened embarrassed to the bone chad gay wizard This guy Hagelin is a big transcendental meditationmo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451097) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:13 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann very confusing. eastern meditative traditions are non-theist, which means intentionality isn't part of their minimal ontology, and yet this guy is saying there is a unified consciousness that is fundamental to the universe. so intentionality is fundamental to the universe but your spiritual practice doesn't contemplate it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451119) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:16 AM Author: adulterous low-t selfie area Are these eastern traditions really non-theist or just indifferent? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451140) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:20 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann youd have to distinguish hinduism from buddhism. hindus have brahman but buddhism doesn't. buddhism is atheistic in a pretty real sense from what I gather. which is why importing transcendental meditation seems confused when you're talking about an inherent intentionality in the fabric of the universe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451182) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:07 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Eastern traditions are theistic in practice and in implementation. It's just because westerners study only the tenets of eastern religions but do not see their practice in the cultures where they arose that we think they are non-theist.
Go to any buddhist temple anywhere in Asia and you will see worship of gods. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:19 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann link to buddhist god-practice? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451577) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:52 AM Author: sickened embarrassed to the bone chad gay wizard I think he approaches TM as a purely mechanical brain practice. You don't have to believe in any spirituality for it to work, even if the roots of TM are in a definite spiritual practice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451387) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann "work" is defined relative to certain aims deduced from metaphysical worldviews. a christian would not think that TM "works", they would think its counterproductive. a commitment to TM "working" therefore presupposes a set of spiritual commitments. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451403) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:44 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus That is the point that Sam Harris makes. He claims meditation is an excellent brain practice and it is regrettable that meditation has for so long gotten mixed up w religious practices, but that the two should be severed and meditation should be examined and practiced on its own terms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451786) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:11 AM Author: crystalline self-centered site "John Hagelin, theoretical physicist and spiritual guru"
LJL, recycling the same bullshit https://www.csicop.org/si/show/quantum_quackery |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:18 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451157) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:47 AM Author: Slate Son Of Senegal fatuous nonsense...we are a long ways away from understanding consciousness...better to focus on more attainable goals (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451363) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:51 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451383) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:05 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus Not so sure that this is the best way to go about things. Also, we've made developments in leaps and bounds concerning what consciousness is and is not in recent times. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451459) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:31 AM Author: Arrogant locale (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451684) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 10:52 AM Author: Cowardly parlor party of the first part Can't watch a video rn but afaik that is egregious interpretive flame. Physics is not "zeroing in" on that.
I'm of the opinion that all possible quantum events are as real as the next, and that's the multiverse. Add in anthropic principle and that's about it. |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:39 AM Author: Supple Sandwich Locus This seems to be the clearest approach, without any extra unsupported baggage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451747) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:29 AM Author: shaky curious people who are hurt legal warrant this is dumb. nothing more than christians still trying to cling to religion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451668) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:29 AM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann you're suggesting there is evidence that religion doesnt exist? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451671) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 11:54 AM Author: shaky curious people who are hurt legal warrant no, that's its wrong and doesnt actually explain anything (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36451847) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:45 PM Author: Dashing translucent boltzmann christian theology is a explanatory giant brother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452188) |
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Date: July 18th, 2018 12:46 PM Author: Vermilion razzle circlehead piazza the spirit of argus!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4029144&forum_id=2#36452196) |