bear: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4031025&mc=19&forum_id=2
bull: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4028225&mc=33&forum_id=2(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4031034&forum_id=2#36465829)