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How enforceable is a non-compete agreement?
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:10 AM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid I am an engineer working in R&D and I am considering moving to an employer that is a competitor and makes the same product. I’m in Minnesota. How hard is it to enforce a noncompete agreement in a case like this? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420590) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:01 PM Author: Godawful Nibblets Heaven Depends in large part on whose law controls. That could depend on what the agreement says and/or where the parties are based. I actually worked on a case like this involving Minnesota law once, but I can't recall whether Minnesota courts will redline a non-compete provision (i.e., limit its terms to make it "reasonable" and enforceable) or just throw it out if they think it is overly restrictive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421026) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 1:31 PM Author: Tan unholy plaza Here's the hack that my buddy who handles this kind of stuff recommends: "Move" to Lake Tahoe, California (actually just do a 3 month rental). Have new company hire you remotely. File in Cali for declaratory relief or whatever it's called and have them declare the NC unenforceable since you're a Cali resident. Move back to Minn. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421494) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 6:04 PM Author: Abusive fortuitous meteor p.s. What was this fellow's name? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37423170) |
Date: December 17th, 2018 10:12 AM Author: Slap-happy Wonderful Really Tough Guy oh you think this is law bort? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420592) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:12 AM Author: Flatulent dragon rehab Depends (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420593) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:16 AM Author: Up-to-no-good office i'm an employment lawyer and a lot of my practice is enforcing non-compete agreements. i regularly get large judgements against breaching employees and injunctions forcing them to quit their new job. a lot of employees end up bankrupt and unemployable. i would advise against breaching (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420604) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:20 AM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid How would my old employer even find out about where I am going to work, or what sort of work I’m doing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420616) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:47 AM Author: Pungent Parlor You’re in the R&D department. It will be something they monitor. And there are two companies making the same product in the same state? They might hear about you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420699) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:51 AM Author: boyish anal pistol cuckold I realize that this is probably flame but in case it isn't you're a parasitic rat-kike piece of shit and the world would be better off if you nuzzled a revolver against your hard palate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420726) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Pungent Parlor Lol wut? Your engineers can’t just job hop to competitors knowing all your trade secrets. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420760) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:02 PM Author: Godawful Nibblets Heaven In California they can, and many states will not enforce overly restrictive non-compete provisions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421030) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:26 PM Author: Pungent Parlor California’s a little bonkers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421140) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:34 PM Author: Drab Degenerate Mad Cow Disease This xo MIT prof has been beating the anti non-compete drum for years, his stuff is very convincing imo
http://fortune.com/2015/07/01/noncompete-agreements/ |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:24 PM Author: Bonkers locus scourge upon the earth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428690) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:18 AM Author: iridescent ape Ur fucked (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420609) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:22 AM Author: Pungent Parlor It’s unenforceable as to Jimmy John’s minimum wage employees. For you, lmao, talk to a lawyer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420622) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:23 AM Author: passionate gunner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420628) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:46 AM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid How would they even figure out where I’m going to work? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420696) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:49 AM Author: Pungent Parlor Answered above. First, I imagine it’s a small world for people doing what you do. Second, they will or should be monitoring departures from R&D.
Assume they are going to find out. You need to talk to a lawyer who can read your agreement and knows MN law. She’ll figure away to make it work and if she can’t you need to tell the new employer and get an indemnification. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:34 PM Author: Drab Degenerate Mad Cow Disease this is not actually true. some states will enforce it (if the company cared enough to file a lawsuit)
what people "think" they know about non-competes is often dead wrong |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:49 AM Author: cyan hideous location Depends on the jurisdiction. Sometimes Courts will look for ways to get around them if they are harsh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420713) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:50 AM Author: Pungent Parlor He’s R&D on a competing product. This is the exact type of situation where courts find them enforceable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420721) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 11:00 AM Author: cyan hideous location In my state, the Court won't enforce if it is too broad in geographic scope or time period and there is a decision that the Court won't blue pencil one that is too broad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420750) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 11:02 AM Author: big-titted stead I think this is pretty typical (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420756) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 11:05 AM Author: Pungent Parlor Yeah, he may be able to go in a year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420766) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:51 AM Author: Insecure exhilarant nowag Agreed.
You should look at the scope of the restriction, friend. If it is so broad that you couldn't work as a Janitor in a vaguely competing business within the same state it may be too broad. Consult an atty. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: Swashbuckling copper school There is no general answer to this question. It depends on the specific agreement and situation. Minnesota enforces non competes, but there is case law on the limits of such agreements. If you are serious about possibly breaching your non compete, you should consult a Minnesota employment lawyer in advance. Even if the agreement is pretty solid and if you really want out, a good attorney can help you negotiate as graceful an exit as possible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420740) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 10:58 AM Author: Swashbuckling copper school P.S., since you are proposing going to a direct competitor, even if you get out of the non compete be very careful about taking proprietary info with you. This can be a criminal offense in some places.
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Date: December 17th, 2018 11:05 AM Author: Pungent Parlor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37420770) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:09 PM Author: razzle milky locale I actually had the same question a few years back after running into this problem. This is not legal advice and you should talk to a LOLyer, but generally it seems like unreasonable non competes are unenforceable - eg “You can never work for any customer we’ve ever worked with for the rest of your life all across the US”. The reasonable, enforceable ones are more specific in scope, such as not being able to move to a customer that you directly worked with through them for a period of one year
Again, I am not a lawyer, so this is based off my own research |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:09 PM Author: swollen buck-toothed pervert If you didn't disclose to your new employer that you have a non-compete, they also will fuck your ass as soon as they find out. If you did, then their legal department should have asked you for a copy and reviewed it. Most companies won't hire someone with a non-compete that creates any risk for them.
And as noted above, don't think you're smart enough to pull data from your work machine to use in the future. You're not and will get caught. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:37 PM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid No way I’d steal data or design info. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421232) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:37 PM Author: big-titted stead I'm sure they'll take your word for it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421239) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:28 PM Author: topaz fragrant gas station nig employer and nig employee enter non compete convenant. enforceable? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421159) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:40 PM Author: Ultramarine dashing national absolutely unenforceable (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421248) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:44 PM Author: abnormal volcanic crater This thread is legal advice. Forwarded to RBI (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421270) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:18 PM Author: big-titted stead c'mon donny (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421840) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 12:52 PM Author: Lascivious charcoal resort stock car definitely enforceable, but here they have to be reasonable as to scope of the restriction on employment and geographic range and time period. I've seen judges cut them down from 3 years to one year if the defendant demonstrates that it affects their livelihood (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421307) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 1:00 PM Author: Coiffed marvelous stage Enforceable in MN if reasonable in temporal and geographic scope, plus interest to be protected.
If your company is smarter they will also seek to enjoin you from leaving under the Uniform Trade Secret Act. Inevitable disclosure is not a settled issue in MN like in other, more employee-friendly states. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 1:13 PM Author: Deranged Business Firm Cuckoldry Oy vey, my trade secrets! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421419) |
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Date: July 7th, 2023 8:01 PM Author: chest-beating cerebral nursing home mediation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#46522313) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 1:35 PM Author: Dark Jewess If you're considering moving, talk to your prospective new employer and have them pay for you to go to a real lawyer in your state who does this work. I would advise going to a litigator (lol); i.e., someone who handles this fight on the back end rather than whoever your new company uses to put their clauses in on the front end. If you're capable, pick the law firm first and ask the new company to pay for the analysis.
This is an area where the law varies heavily from state to state and is also very fact-intensive. Also -- and no one ever does this but I think it'd be a good idea to keep the option open -- if you go to law firm 'A' and get them to prepare a memo concluding that you're likely okay, it could conceivably be usable in an advice-of-counsel defense (depending upon how strong their conclusion is) when you jump ship and get sued; I'd probably hire law firm 'B' at that point just to make the scope of the waiver cleaner. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:30 PM Author: Pungent Parlor What are you? Some kind of lawyer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421918) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:21 PM Author: Slate Dog Poop Newt not really the employee's problem. the employers will settle on something if need be (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421871) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:33 PM Author: Pungent Parlor Yeah, the new employer won’t even bother mentioning to OP that they’ve been served with a $50 million theft of trade secrets case. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421929) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:34 PM Author: Slate Dog Poop Newt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421943) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:35 PM Author: Lascivious charcoal resort stock car I've seen employees settle these from $0 all the way up to $10k for a buy out (and this was for some radio company ad sales job)
The new company will be named in a lawsuit against the employee by the old company, most companies will just fire that employee on the spot to avoid this. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 6:02 PM Author: iridescent ape I've seen a guy face criminal charges for trade secret theft AFTER paying a six figure settlement in a civil suit (on top of his new employer paying millions). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37423160) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 6:03 PM Author: Lascivious charcoal resort stock car ouch lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37423166) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:35 PM Author: Glassy hospital french chef Lmao so no one on this boart practices law at all (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421949) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:36 PM Author: Godawful Nibblets Heaven ???
Lots of scholarship ITT. |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 2:43 PM Author: Pungent Parlor Cr. Jimmy John’s really had a non-compete for min. wage workers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37421990) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:20 PM Author: Emerald Cruise Ship That's common in restaurants, though. At least while you're an employee. Burger King won't let you work at McDonald's, for example, while you work at Burger King. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37429009) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 3:07 PM Author: sexy jade immigrant Anything other than an M&A noncompete is worth the risk if the upside is big. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37422166) |
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Date: December 17th, 2018 6:26 PM Author: bat-shit-crazy temple based only on the details you gave and assuming certain things about the size of both orgs and your seniority:
current employer probably would try to enforce NCA if you left for competitor
assuming you fought it it would probably drag out for a year or two and ultimately resolve in your favor, but you'd be out a lot of legal fee$ that hopefully your new employer would cover.
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Date: December 18th, 2018 3:55 PM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid UPDATE: I sent my non-compete contract to my new employer. Their in-house legal staff said they can hire me because I applied online (rather than them recruiting me). I think their response addresses the non-solicitation clause rather than the non-compete clause. I’m not sure what I should do 🤔 . . . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428519) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:17 PM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428651) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:19 PM Author: Slate Dog Poop Newt lol you're fucked (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428663) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:20 PM Author: Arousing confused kitchen karate sounds like a crack team of hamline legal scholars over there (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428665) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:33 PM Author: Infuriating sweet tailpipe hominid Haha. I think most in-house legal there come from the Ivy League. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428735) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 4:56 PM Author: Lascivious charcoal resort stock car (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37428852) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:16 PM Author: Filthy Peach Sandwich Do nothing. You already disclosed it to the new employer. Burden is on them to identify the risks.
Reality is unless you’re some super senior person with actual trade secrets, nobody’s going to come after you and get an injunction. |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:41 PM Author: iridescent ape This is dangerously bad advice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37429105) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 6:12 PM Author: Filthy Peach Sandwich Basically any new hire we get has a non compete so I know something about what companies do in such a situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37429301) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 6:44 PM Author: iridescent ape Yes, you as an employee of a single company, are uniquely qualified to offer advice on how all employers, and courts in all jurisdictions, would view this situation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37429422) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:13 PM Author: Filthy Peach Sandwich Basically this isn’t your problem and is your new employer’s problem. Just reveal the non compete and let their legal handle it. If they want you enough, they will find a way around it.
The only time my firm gets pissed is if you have a non compete and don’t disclose it to us prior to starting. |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:25 PM Author: Emerald Cruise Ship Are there ever situations where a noncompete agreement is subject to a nondisclosure agreement? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4157518&forum_id=2#37429027) |
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Date: December 18th, 2018 5:36 PM Author: shimmering house-broken rigor love of her life nig signs agreement with no nig work covenant
Q: enforceable? |