Law school now $100,000 a yr., hehe
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: January 15th, 2019 10:44 PM Author: cerebral cream stag film
Tuition $67,532
Yikes.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37599932) |
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Date: January 15th, 2019 11:40 PM Author: trip police squad
Idiot logic.
Please learn about marginal costs and marginal profit before trying to make an economic utility argument.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600234)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 5:27 AM Author: trip police squad
You never discuss the expected utility (or IRR) of an investment (in this case law school) in terms of percentage of cost increase. That is like community college level thinking.
For example, mining and development companies don't consider whether to pursue a project in terms of the expected percentage increase in costs. They calculate expected profit (net of expenses/costs). In other words, they look at raw numbers and projections for revenue vs. cost to determine projected profits. There is not a single financial model of decision making where you ever consider percentage increase in costs and the retards who continue to flail about on xoxo is hilarious. You look at expected top-line numbers and whether the expected bottom-line numbers coincide with your IRR.
Based on the numbers, you break even (offset law school expenses) faster NOW, then you did a decade ago before the 60% increase in law school tuition. I broke down the numbers year-by-year in another thread, look it up. The current "break even" point, i.e., where you've made more after tax than law school total costs, is after year 3.
Based on the numbers, you make FAR MORE, beginning year 4, then you ever did, compared to any historically comparable period. If you want to do a COL/CPI/inflation adjustment, whatever that's fine, but you need to also do a inflation adjustment for every dollar you spend for law school and related expenses as well in that case to bring every dollar to a single consistent point in time - that's basic financial accounting which the retards here don't seem to get.
Based on the numbers, you will have earned $2 to $3 million dollars before taxes if you do 10 years in biglaw. This is astronomically higher than what you would have made if you started your career in 2000.
Law school is a far better investment (in terms of ROI) than it has ever been.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601006) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 8:25 AM Author: trip police squad
How is this a model outcome?
If you graduated law school say 2012 and went to a market paying firm (not Reed Smeeth or Dorsey), you are on track to make at least $2 million by the end of year 10. The reason for the variation is b/c some firms pay special/summer bonuses and others don't, and some firms obviously pay a lot more than Cravath rate. It's really hard to get fired these days so unless you're a fuckup or you quit you're not getting canned before year 10 in today's biglaw.
If you want "model outcome," that would mean Wachtell/W&C etc. and partner at year 8 and making millions, or V10 and partner at year 8/9 and making millions. And yes, quite a few people make partner obviously.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601269) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 9:35 AM Author: galvanic at-the-ready dopamine mad cow disease
Lol
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601462)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 9:19 PM Author: trip police squad
That's completely wrong.
If you want to do a full EU calculation, you have to do an EU of every single possibility and determine what your modal outcomes are with their corresponding payoffs.
So you then need to also factor in the possibility of making partner at Wachtell in this case multiplied by the payoff, which you fail to do.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37605323)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 10:46 AM Author: trip police squad
Average biglaw hours are like 1900-2100.
Ljl how much do you think an MD at say JPM fixed income, or DCM or ECM made in an average year between 2010-2019?
The cream of the crop made a million or more sure, but most MDs arent balling. But if you want to compare cream to cream then you need to compare to the top equity at Boies and shit.
Also, much harder to make MD than partner with much worse iob security.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601849) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 11:08 AM Author: trip police squad
People think banker = IB / M&A advisory. Yeah those guys make a lot more obviously.
But most bankers arent doing IPOs andM&A. They are barely getting by doing volume and commoditized DCM and corp fin / fixed income shit deals with low margins. Same deal goes for much of PWM, RE finance and the like. Those guys sometimes get zero bonuses and even Director / MD levels are under 1 million.
And I am not even considering research guys or s&t. Theres a huge gulf in banker pay, just like in biglaw. You want to compare the cream of BB, then compare with the top equity at Boies.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601945) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 4:48 AM Author: trip police squad
No, it makes perfect sense that YOU have no idea what you're talking about.
"bbbbut he used finance terms!"
Yeah no shit. People are making some kind of expected utility argument but are too damn lazy to actually come up with any numbers or any proper analysis of any of the modal outcomes. Retards like you use shoddy modeling to assume, erroneously, that leaving biglaw before year 4 is the most likely outcome without proving your work, and even if it was, an analysis based on expected utility would require that you also factor the probability that you make partner at Wachtell, which of course you ignorantly forget to do.
I recognize the limitations of an expected utility argument so I have been using an expected cashflow model to determine the value of "investing" in law school. The results are of course, incredibly in favor of law school being a terrific investment, not only in terms of IRR (profability measure of an investment) but also in terms of future cash flows.
Responding to an argument based on cashflows and IRR with arguments about modality and EU is completely nonsensical because the very premises underlying the financial analysis are different, and shows that people frankly do not understand what a future cashflow/IRR analysis dictates.
If you can't keep up with basic financial concepts, GTFO out of this thread.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37619643) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 5:34 AM Author: wine casino quadroon
Actually I was a bit bemused at how upset and angry devryretard is in this whole thread: he’s calling nutella a “whore” for telling him he’s wrong (lots of other people are too)
Sorry to tell you but this bluffer is utterly full of shit
EDIT I see he deleted where he called her a “dumb whore” in his post of maybe 1/2 an hour ago, but I saw it - very unedifying behavior, pitiful stuff
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37619675)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 9:22 PM Author: trip police squad
Then your poast makes no sense.
I was posting break even points and profitability thresholds. You said "I can tell you this is far from a modal outcome even for a t6."
Discussing that break even point occurs at year 2 has nothing to do with modality.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37605343)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 5:31 AM Author: trip police squad
LJL what a dinky argument. This is only significant in maybe San Francisco, Bay Area.
Rents in most of the T14, such as Michigan, UVA, Duke, etc., have remained relatively stable. Even in places like Columbia and NYU, unless you are living in a brand new luxury skyrise, have risen maybe by 10-20% in the past decade.
From what I recall, a studio at a high-rise or a 1BR in a walk-up in Manhattan ran you between $2,000 and $3,400 pre-ITE. Guess what? That's basically what it still costs now. The increase in rents is primarily driven by increase in luxury home prices. I'm not even discussing the point that most law students have roommates and few people are even paying much in rent to begin with.
And don't tell me the prices of Chipotle burritos or your local laundromat have gone up oh so much! In a lot of ways prices have actually gone down. Depends on the year, but gas prices are lower now than they were during periods of the 2000s, etc.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601016) |
Date: January 15th, 2019 11:06 PM Author: naked skinny woman
For students borrowing federal student loans, the average educational loan fees for borrowers at Columbia Law School will automatically be added to the cost of attendance at the time of loan certification. Based upon an assessment of Law School borrowing during the 2017-18 academic year, the average educational loan fees amount to $2,387 ($217 for Stafford loans and $2,170 for Graduate PLUS loans).
L'chaim!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600068) |
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Date: January 15th, 2019 11:25 PM Author: Smoky genital piercing wrinkle
cr
this is basically what happens over and over again and companies/big law firms scratch their heads wondering why their diversity numbers haven't improved.
"diversity" has been discussed for 20+ years in companies/law firms, yet the numbers have barely budged.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600172) |
Date: January 16th, 2019 12:13 AM Author: bonkers crackhouse
*takes out $300,000 in student loans to go to law school*
*accrues interest*
*gets miserable biglaw job*
*aggressively pays loans while saving very little*
*is back at $0 net worth after 3 years of bullshit school and 5 years of suicidal-thought inducing work.*
"Hey guys, 5th year V10 associate here. I can't just can't bear the thought of another day of work. I'm in my mid 30s and spend 60 hours per week working so I don't have a girlfriend or any real friends. I hate the work. I finally paid off my student loans but don't have any real savings because of them. I'm finally ready to ditch law and start my life. What should I do to change careers and start fresh?"
"Become a programmer! You can learn online. Just start here: https://online.illinois.edu/student-services/online-degrees-and-certificates-program-costs"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600387) |
Date: January 16th, 2019 12:15 AM Author: harsh lodge useless brakes
one of the world’s leading centers of legal scholarship.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600405)
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Date: January 16th, 2019 12:23 AM Author: Cerise Fiercely-loyal University Sweet Tailpipe
How much should a school that gets you the following salary progression cost?
Base Salary
1st year: $190,000
2nd year: $200,000
3rd year: $220,000
4th year: $255,000
5th year: $280,000
6th year: $305,000
7th year: $325,000
8th year: $340,000
Bonus
1st year: $15,000
2nd year: $25,000
3rd year: $50,000
4th year: $65,000
5th year: $80,000
6th year: $90,000
7th year: $100,000
8th year: $100,000
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37600442) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 8:30 AM Author: trip police squad
Lol you disingenuous idiot. If you're from a T6 your odds of getting biglaw are like 99%.
If you actually plan to stick around and aren't a fuckup, you are 100% making it to year 8 and beyond.
That 10% number is completely made up. When I check my V5, almost everyone I used to work with are all still there...surprise!
The reason why people leave biglaw? B/c there are so many fucking opportunities and inhouse is hiring and paying like crazy. Surprise!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601283) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 8:35 AM Author: trip police squad
At my V5, the associates I used to work with (post-ITE grads) that were below me are literally all still there, 100% of them.
The guys my year and above either made partner there, or lateralled elsewhere and are all partners at other biglaw firms, or landed GC/AGC jobs at major corps.
ITE obviously had an impact.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601296) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 11:17 AM Author: heady round eye piazza
Lol you are so full of shit.
I’m class of 2007 and there is one person from my law school class who is a partner at cravath and no other v20 partners. Maybe 10% left in any sort of biglaw after 11 years, which includes shit firms like Morgan Lewis or whatever.
From my v10 summer class of 50, 3 were left last I checked. None are equity partners. I think 1 may make it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37601978) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 11:26 AM Author: trip police squad
-"no other v20 partners" what an interesting cutoff...
-Ljl at you auditing your law school classmates to see where they are...talk about being full of shit
-I lost count of the number of my classmates who made biglaw partner and we graduated around the same time frame
-of your v10 summer class of 50, how many are partners at other firms?
Again, speaking from my own V5 experience, every single associate in my group who I worked with is still there and I left like 5 years ago. I hear one is lateralling soon into a Counsel position at a lower ranked firm.
Literally everyone in my group who were above me and left, is either AGC/GC at bigcorp, or partner at a biglaw firm.
I don't see why any of this is surprising to you. Maybe b/c you left for inhouse so early. Things have changed a lot in biglaw retention in the past 5 years. There's a massive shortage of bodies at the senior levels, especially with inhouse hiring booming...why do you think bonuses are so fing high...get a clue.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37602020) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 1:12 PM Author: heady round eye piazza
I had my 10 year reunion and we had a life update book where like 80% of the people responded. The ones who didn’t respond are living in the basement at mom’s house, not biglaw partners. Since it’s only 170 per class and people keep in touch generally, I do know what’s going on for the most part.
I didn’t limit to v20 at all, I said about 10% left in biglaw at all. Pretty sure most of them who are “partners” are income not equity, which is a meaningful difference. Nobody makes equity anymore. I’m assuming you were at Skadden if I’m going to even remotely entertain that people in your class made partner at a v5. Either your entering class of people are the most talented in the history of big law or you’re full of shit.
I mention v20 though since you’re the one assuming it’s easy to stay long term in v20 where you’re really going to get the full benefit of lockstep salary increases and bonuses. It’s laughable to assume that even HYS grads can last a long time at a v20 without burning out.
It’s also convenient that you mention people who were juniors post ITE in 2012 and 2013 are still there. They are just getting to the point where they are going to start leaving en masse and they’re not all getting plum in house jobs.
Keep cherry picking and making assumptions of best possible outcome to justify $300k (not counting interest) as some sort of great investment.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37602722) |
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Date: January 16th, 2019 9:27 PM Author: trip police squad
Law school is a teriffic choice right now, hence the spike in law school applications, duh.
Law school was a terrible choice immediately during and after ITE.
You whining about cherry picking is hilarious given that cherry picking this particular point in history is key b/c we are talking about historically high law school tuition rates.
You BREAK EVEN after tax after year 3. After year 3, every dollar you make is profit. I don't think you realize how much biglaw associates make these days. You can easily pay off your loans and have several hundred K in the bank saved up after 8 years in biglaw.
I will agree that it's not so good if you go to George Washington -> Dechert. But from TT6 -> V30 you're going to be good to go.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37605365)
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Date: January 18th, 2019 1:45 PM Author: heady round eye piazza
Spike in law school applications? It has been well publicized that applications are down dramatically across the board, even at elite schools, lsat medians are coming down, because people are finally catching onto the scam.
Let me remind you that biglaw is at the whim of the market and it’s completely unclear what 2019, 2020 etc will bring. Wouldn’t be surprised with a lot less m&a, ipos, cap markets activity, which is really the main driver of revenue. Bankruptcy and distressed work and more securities lit as stock prices fall do not bring in as much money. You’re operating on the assumption that bonuses will remain high and that is completely unknown. What is known, however, is that law schools will continue to raise tuitions year after tear, even if ITE 2 happens.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37615349) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 2:01 PM Author: Infuriating Trust Fund Abode
"I don't know if your son fully appreciates how much $450k w/ interest is. Dentists do well but paying off 450k will take a longgggggggg time. Sure, you may make120k or 150k out of school, but taxes hit you hard and then you are paying off that 450k with post-tax money with no or little tax deductions and after living expenses. Might want to show him a mathematical breakdown of how long it might take to pay off"
Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k Sure, you may make120k
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37615441) |
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Date: January 20th, 2019 8:38 PM Author: trip police squad
It truly is! For a Class of 2014 grad for example:
-You will have made 630K after year 3, easily recouping your law school costs
-You will have made 930K after year 4!!!!!
-After year 4, you will have made more than 300K MORE than a 2008 graduate after year 4!!!!
-You will have made $3 million after year 9!!!!! And that's assuming you didn't collect a single special bonus!!!! And that's assuming you don't make partner!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37629529)
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Date: January 20th, 2019 8:41 PM Author: trip police squad
Yearly breakdwon of a hypothetical 2014 grad in a market firm, NO special bonuses. Pay raises are added real-time (so no pay raise reflected for first 3 years):
Year 1: 175K
Year 2: 195k (370k total)
Year 3: 260k (630k total)
Year 4: 300K (930K total)
Year 5: 360K (1.29 million total)
Year 6: 385K (1.68 million total)
Year 7: 415K (2.09 million total)
Year 8: 430K (2.52 million total)
Year 9: 450K (2.97 million total!!!!)
A whopping 3 million after only 9 years!!!!! With partnership prospects!!!!!! LJL at your tiny pink tuition increases.
No wonder there is a huge spike in law school applications and LSAT takers (biggest increase since 2001-2002)!!!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4178710&forum_id=2#37629550)
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