I love how we all have to pretend to be disgusted by Epstein and call him a pedo
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: August 15th, 2019 12:12 AM Author: vibrant therapy set
Really he was acting out every heterosexual man's fantasies. He was banging teenage girls not prepubescent children. The entirety of Islam is based on the promise of an after life that matches Epstein's reality.
What a sick pervert!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38689480) |
Date: August 15th, 2019 1:22 AM Author: cyan menage pisswyrm
an island filled with teenage girls
and we're at war with them, why?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38689690) |
Date: August 15th, 2019 1:29 AM Author: Copper exhilarant cuck
i don't get it. this is like Led Zeppelin tour hi-jinks. who cares? this kind of thing used to be laughed about.
it's just more #MeToo horseshit to rile up women and (further) poison the relations between white heterosexuals, until they go extinct.
these girls were not *traumatizied* by being flown to the Bahamas (60 x) to give Bill Clinton a handjob for $5k. just stop.
the 13 months probation he received in 2006 sounds about right, or excessive.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38689711) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 1:35 AM Author: Flushed Corner
they weren't sex slaves...nowadays almost all white girls go to college...or else they are rural redstate homebodies who stay in their hometowns...but it wasn't that long ago that lots of young white teen girls ran away...left home...partied hard and had sex and drugs and abortions...you would see them everywhere...they would run away and go to some city and sleep at guy's apartments (usually there would be multiple young male roommates there and one or more of the guys would have sex with her)...then move to another apartment and have sex with another guy or two...then they would have an abortion and get depressed and move back home...this process would take a few months to evolve...seen it in person several times....
back in the 70s they would be on the roads hitchhiking...
that was still happening in the 1990s..
but almost unheard of now..something changed in the last 20 years or so...i mean, it still happens, but not like it did before...
but epstein exploited this phenomenon...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38689730) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 7:57 PM Author: Stirring sick nibblets
Sexual Morality of agricultural societiy shifted after industrial revolution when people flocked to the cities / urban areas, sexual liberation, shifting sexual morality to fit industrial society where large cities provided all sorts of temptations and anonymity that smaller ag societies didn't.
Social media has had a larger influence that people give it credit for - it's destroyed that sort of anonymity you described in the "couch surfer" free spirit / hitchhiker chick. Also social media has allowed people to express moral judgements and attitudes in an unprecedented way. People virtue signal to indicate club membership - a sort of desperation for people not sure where they're supposed to find community and fellowship. And social media has drastically reduced the cost of expressing moral outrage - there is ramping up / trying to outdo each other with virtue signaling and expressing outrage, but also the cost to expressing this outrage is very low on social media, if you make a false positive people brush it off / you go unnoticed, if you get a hit you connect with others expressing / forming social norms.
Also the industrial revolution, in freeing up women to enter the work place / all kinds of traditional male domains - society has just become straight up more feminized. Feminine traits are highly valued everywhere where masculine traits are devalued if not demonized. Competition is looked down on, as it highlights differences in ability / establishes hierarchy of winners and losers. The strongest female moral sentiment - equality / fairness - is basically just a moral godzilla running rampant throughout our culture last few decades, being treated as the exclusive form of morality, typical slave morality notion - fairness / equality as the singular dimension of value.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38693081) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:23 PM Author: ultramarine brunch genital piercing
I Lost My Virginity to David Bowie
Lori Mattix, as told to Michael Kaplan
In the early 1970s, the Sunset Strip was a magnet for rock stars: Bowie, Zeppelin, Iggy Pop, Mott the Hoople, The Who. They all hung out in the VIP rooms of louche LA nightclubs like E Club, the Rainbow, and Rodney Bingenheimer’s English Disco. And with them, of course, came groupies. Scantily clad 14- and 15-year-olds like Sable Starr and Lynn “Queenie” Koenigsaecker sipped cherry cola, dropped pills, and evolved into pubescent dream girls for the platform-shoed rockers who could get anything and anyone they desired.
Decades before Drake dissed Tyga for dating 17-year-old Kylie Jenner, and R. Kelly faced multiple allegations of having sex with minors, the most visible rock stars in the world blithely made it with girls who were barely out of junior high school. It was all glorified in the pages of a glossy magazine called Star, which reveled in the underage groupie scene for five issues. Other publications, such as the rock ‘n’ roll bible Creem, flicked at the Sunset Strip doings without so much as a wagged finger. Hell, in 1973, a leisure-suited Tom Snyder devoted an entire show to interviews with some of LA’s highly desired teenage groupies.
Starting from the age of 15, Lori Mattix ranked among the most desired of these so-called baby groupies who were helping to satisfy the sexual appetites of Jimmy Page, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, and others. She hung out at the Playboy Mansion and modeled in the pages of Star. In time, she and Sable Starr helped inspire Kate Hudson’s character in the film Almost Famous.
These days, she has found success as a partner and buyer for the Glam Boutique on Melrose Ave in West Hollywood. But the past is never too far behind. Over cheeseburgers at Father’s Office in LA, she told me that when the 71-year-old Jimmy Page, now dating a 25-year-old, recently came to town, they met up. As Mattix remembers it, “He said to me, ‘Lori, we were both children back then.’ I felt like telling him, ‘At least one of us was.’”
Here she is, in her own words, with the occasional interjection:
Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images
Sable Starr lived to fuck rock stars. She was so glamorous, totally one-of-a-kind, wearing scarves for shirts and going topless without hesitation. My junior high school friend Queenie became friends with Sable and introduced me. I was 14. Sable was the same age. I felt completely in awe of her. My mother owned a concession at the movie star restaurant Chasen’s. On weekend nights, while she worked, I snuck out of the house to hang with Queenie and Sable at the clubs on Sunset Strip.
What I remember most about the E Club was Bowie. I met him when he was doing the Spiders from Mars tour. I had not yet turned 15 and he wanted to take me to his hotel room. I was still a virgin and terrified. He had hair the color of carrots, no eyebrows, and the whitest skin imaginable. I grabbed on to [DJ and club co-owner] Rodney Bingenheimer and said I was with him. So we all just hung out and talked. I had probably kissed boys by that point, but I wasn’t ready for David Bowie.
Next time Bowie was in town, though, maybe five months later, I got a call at home from his bodyguard, a huge black guy named Stuey. He told me that David wanted to take me to dinner. Obviously, I had no homework that night. Fuck homework. I wasn’t spending a lot of time at school anyway. I said that I would like to go but that I wanted to bring my friend Sable. She was dying to fuck Bowie. I figured that she would sleep with him while I got to hang out and have fun. At the time, Sable and her sister Coral were both dating Iggy Pop, spending time at the home of Tony DeFries [then-manager of David Bowie and Iggy] up in Laurel Canyon. People there were so high all the time -- Quaaludes, heroin, whatever. In the limo ride to the Rainbow, Sable said, “If you touch David, I will kill you.” I didn’t think she was kidding.
We sat at this corner table in a private room. Stuey rolled enormous blunts. John Lennon and Yoko Ono stopped by to say hello. We were drinking cocktails and looking at menus when some crazy guy dove over the table and said to David, “You flaming fucking faggot. Kill Bowie!” Next thing you know, Stuey’s got the guy pinned down and we’re being escorted out a side door and back into the limo. “Danny’s Song” was playing on the radio and Sable started singing to David: “We ain’t got honey, but I’m so in love with your money...” He laughed so hard. He thought it was hilarious.
We got to the Beverly Hilton and all went up to Bowie’s enormous suite. I found myself more and more fascinated by him. He was beautiful and clever and poised. I was incredibly turned on. Bowie excused himself and left us in this big living room with white shag carpeting and floor-to-ceiling windows. Stuey brought out Champagne and hash. We were getting stoned when, all of a sudden, the bedroom door opens and there is Bowie in this fucking beautiful red and orange and yellow kimono.
He focused his famously two-colored eyes on me and said, “Lori, darling, can you come with me?” Sable looked like she wanted to murder me. He walked me through his bedroom and into the bathroom, where he dropped his kimono. He got into the tub, already filled with water, and asked me to wash him. Of course I did. Then he escorted me into the bedroom, gently took off my clothes, and de-virginized me.
Two hours later, I went to check on Sable. She was all fucked up in the living room, walking around, fogging up windows and writing, "I want to fuck David." I told him what she was doing and that I felt so bad. Bowie said, “Well, darling, bring her in.” That night I lost my virginity and had my first threesome. The next morning, there was banging on the door and it was fucking [Bowie’s wife] Angie. I was terrified of her. David said not to worry about it. They were already at the point where they had separate rooms. She probably knew he’d be in there with girls... or boys. He was totally bisexual. I saw David many times after that, for the next 10 years, and it was always great.
Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images
THRILLIST: Still, you were a 15-year-old kid and he was an adult man with a lot of experience, and power, and drugs. You don’t see any problem with that now?
I was an innocent girl, but the way it happened was so beautiful. I remember him looking like God and having me over a table. Who wouldn’t want to lose their virginity to David Bowie?
THRILLIST: But did it ever feel like there was something unusual about it?
No. You need to understand that my life has never been normal. I have always been special. I always felt like the universe was taking care of me.
THRILLIST: Did your mother have any idea what was going on?
I think she knew. But what could she say? My older sister was fucking lowriders and surfers; my dad was deceased; I was with rock stars. Besides, I had been the last virgin in my high school. In some ways, I was not different than one of the Kardashians. At that point, you could say, I was viewed as a groupie. People on the scene knew that I had been with Bowie and that brought out the paparazzi. But in my head I was still a virgin. As far as school went: forget it. I couldn’t concentrate on classes. I had been pulled into this rock ‘n’ roll life!
Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images
Not long after my night with Bowie, I got a call from some guy saying he was Jimmy Page. I knew it was a prank phone call. Led Zeppelin was the biggest rock band in the world. Why would Jimmy be calling me at home? But then, a couple of weeks later, Sable and I were at Iggy’s place where we found out that Led Zeppelin was staying at the Hyatt House. They had the entire ninth floor. On the way over, Sable said to me, “You keep your hands off Jimmy. If you touch him, I will shoot you. He’s mine.” I told her that it was okay. I wanted nothing to do with him.
So we got to the Hyatt. Everybody was hanging out at the pool, throwing each other in, and Jimmy walked up to me. He said, “Are you Lori? I’m Jimmy. I told you I would be with you.” It was him on the phone! I couldn’t believe it. At that point, though, especially after the Bowie incident, I was truly afraid that Sable would beat me up, kill me, crucify me, 86 me out of Hollywood. She was the queen of the groupies. You did not fuck with Sable Starr.
That night we all wound up at the Rainbow, where I got approached by Led Zeppelin’s manager Peter Grant. He was like 700 pounds and scary as hell. He said, “You’re coming with me, young lady.” I wound up in a limo and didn’t know where I was going. But it was to the Hyatt. I felt like I was being kidnapped. I got taken into a room and there was Jimmy Page. He wore a wide-brimmed hat and held a cane. It was perfect. He mesmerized me. I fell in love instantly.
Zeppelin was starting its tour for Houses of the Holy and Jimmy stationed himself in LA. The band had a private jet, called the Starship, and he flew back and forth from the gigs. But I was underage and couldn’t travel with him. So I would stay in the room and wait for Jimmy. At that point, I was 15 and totally in love with this man. I put him on a pedestal. It became so serious that Jimmy asked my mom for permission to be with me.
THRILLIST: Wait -- he asked your mom? Did he ever seem at all nervous about having sex with a minor?
Looking back, he had to be afraid of getting sued for being with such a young girl, so maybe he thought it would be better if he cleared it with my mother and told her he was in love with me. And I do think he was in love with me. He bought me beautiful maxi dresses to wear and wouldn’t let me do drugs or anything.
THRILLIST: What did your mother make of him?
She liked him. She used to be an agent and was savvy to show business. She knew that I was dating the biggest rock star in the world. She used to say, “My daughter is like Priscilla [Presley].” I was Jimmy’s little angel.
We really didn’t do much besides go to parties in LA; other than that, Jimmy never took me anywhere amazing. We just sequestered ourselves in the hotel room. Then there was an incident at the Drake Hotel in Manhattan. The band was staying there while doing some shows at Madison Square Garden. They had $200,000 stolen from the Drake’s safety deposit box. The FBI thought it could have been an inside job. Ultimately, when the band came back to LA, Peter Grant told me that I had to get out of the hotel or else Jimmy might go to fucking jail. The FBI was all over them.
But that blew over and Jimmy and I stayed together. When he was in England, he would call me every day. I hung out with Sable and Queenie and went to the clubs and waited for him. I stayed loyal. My whole life was about waiting for Jimmy. I tried going to high school, but I couldn’t concentrate. And after Jimmy Page and David Bowie, what was I going to do with a North Hollywood boy? I didn’t go to high school prom because I was too busy living the Hollywood prom.
When he came back for a party to celebrate the launching of the band’s record label, Swan Song, I made the biggest mistake. I knew I would be staying with Jimmy and told my friend Bebe Buell [then a groupie who later dated Steven Tyler and is the mother of Liv Tyler] that she could have the room next door. I didn’t know she would steal my man. I had a key to Jimmy’s suite, walked in, and saw them in bed together. I looked at him and said, “What did you do to me?” I never trusted him again. He was like a god to me and instantly destroyed this whole image I had of him.
I remember going to a party they had at Bel-Air Hotel that night. I probably took a Quaalude or something and wound up with a bloody nose. I wore a white dress and got blood all over it. That was an awful night. I don’t even like thinking about it. My relationship with Jimmy ended and my heart was shattered. It was hard for me to trust again. He will always be one of the great loves of my life.
Courtesy of Lori Mattix
THRILLIST: Do you think in retrospect that he might have exploited you?
No. I feel blessed. I feel like I was protected rather than exploited. I feel like I was very present.
After Jimmy, I grew up and got over it. I was still modeling. My life was still rock ‘n’ roll and rock stars. Of course there were other guys -- and amazing situations. I remember being 17 and hanging out at the Record Plant in LA. I was friends with the owner and everybody recorded there. I saw three of the Beatles with Mick Jagger and Stevie Wonder having this great jam session. But then Mick started fighting with McCartney or Lennon over who would sing on a particular song. Mick got pissed off. He took me to one of the bondage-themed bedrooms that the studio had. Mick said, “Let’s go fuck and get high.” We did blow all night and talked and hung out until the morning. We tried to have sex all night, but, at a certain point, he couldn’t get hard anymore. We were both very high. Another time, Mick [had me] on a bathroom floor while Bianca was getting ready for surgery. The sex was very consensual.
THRILLIST: Still, a lot of people would have a hard time with an underage girl having sex with rock stars.
But you need to understand that I didn’t think of myself as underage. I was a model. I was in love. That time of my life was so much fun. It was a period in which everything seemed possible. There was no AIDS and the potential consequences seemed to be light. Nobody was afraid of winding up on YouTube or TMZ. Now people are terrified. You can’t even walk out your door without being photographed. It has become a different world.
But, I should add, things haven’t really changed. Look at the Kylie and Kendall Jenners, the Gigi Hadids. They are the modern-day versions of teenage groupies. The only difference is that the Internet blows them up in a way that allows them to make a fortune. And then there’s Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, and all those kids who were fucking partying at 15. It is just a different era. It has evolved into something else.
For me, now, I’m in the fashion business and look back very fondly on those years. I was really special. I knew it the night after I lost my virginity to David Bowie, when I went to see his concert at Long Beach Arena. It was still the Spiders from Mars tour, and, literally, the night that he became a star. But he had the spotlight shined on Lee Childers [Bowie’s publicist], Sable, and I, sitting in the audience. That’s when he thanked me for being there. Who cares what people said about me? I feel like I was very present. I saw the greatest music ever. I got to hang out with some of the most amazing, most beautiful, most charismatic men in the world. I went to concerts in limos with police escorts. Am I going to regret this? No.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691890) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:25 PM Author: ultramarine brunch genital piercing
exactly. girls used to run away at 14-16 and have sex with rock stars all the time. and they admit they enjoyed it and wanted to do it.
"THRILLIST: Still, you were a 15-year-old kid and he was an adult man with a lot of experience, and power, and drugs. You don’t see any problem with that now?
I was an innocent girl, but the way it happened was so beautiful. I remember him looking like God and having me over a table. Who wouldn’t want to lose their virginity to David Bowie?"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691903) |
Date: August 15th, 2019 2:47 PM Author: flesh arousing hissy fit home
This is obviously correct and what is the silliest thing about this. I would understand the outrage if the pics were of him and some 7-year-old scared child. Instead, the most common pics I see is some 17-year-old blonde girl that is hanging out with a bunch of celebs.
American moral panic at its best. We have a weird society where we can simultaneously go nuts over Trump saying "pussy" and some dude fucking teen girls and celebrate trannies, have porn everywhere, show gay sex scenes on TV every day, encourage girls to fuck everything that moves in college, etc.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691735) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:11 PM Author: saffron mildly autistic sound barrier
Ehh...sort of
Within Western Europe, inside the Hajnal Line, average marriage age was early 20s and average menstruation was 17 for girls. A 15 year old mother was pretty uncommon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691848) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:15 PM Author: flesh arousing hissy fit home
Not only that, but it isn't abnormal for 15-year-old girls to have sex. The whole "omg, but they're OLDER men" is irrelevant and the product of modern moral panic/feminism. They have sex now, they've always had sex at that age.
7-year-olds, OTOH, don't normally have sex. Not with anyone. Not ever. Because they're children, and while they have occasionally been forced throughout history to have sex, it pretty much has been universally condemned as rape.
Therefore, the two are not comparable. And the desire of men who want to have sex with a teen girl and with a child also aren't comparable, and this has been true throughout all of human history. HTH.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691865) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:44 PM Author: impertinent jap masturbator
titcr. im 50/50 on the "pedo" question.
i dont think its weird for any individual man to be attracted to some individual 15 year old.
but i also dont think its weird that we make it socially unacceptable for adult men to date 14 year old girls.
both of these things seem obvious (except to weird third world aspies like TMF)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38691985) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:48 PM Author: flesh arousing hissy fit home
First, I'll admit that I am in fact a weird third world aspie. Second, I don't like criminal law based on "it would be nice if society was like X."
I am fine with it being socially unacceptable. Even in places where it wasn't illegal, it would be socially unacceptable. For example, until recently in Canada AOC was 14. Yet, you didn't generally see the rich and famous dating 14 year olds. And that's fine and well.
Honestly, most of my issue ITT is the conflation of men doing what is generally normal for males, and doing what is totally abnormal and sick pedo behavior.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38692008) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:52 PM Author: impertinent jap masturbator
yes but the problem is that you only focus on what men want to do. male sexual drive is "normal" but that doesnt mean adult men actually hooking up with teen girls is "normal." not in a healthy society.
look, i understand in a third world shithole like the ukraine everyone is happy to pimp out their 14 year old daughter to balding 40 yo law dorks. Fine. That's "normal" in ukraine.
but here in the first world people have the expectation that they shouldn't have to pimp out their teen daughter to balding law dorks.
thats kind of the difference between the first world and third world.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38692025) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:58 PM Author: flesh arousing hissy fit home
A) Plenty of parts of the US are total shitholes where people do far worse
B) Regardless, I don't even think the women in question were mostly American, iirc
C) This is what I mean about legislating for "it would be nice", and a bunch of links here show rockstars, rich businessmen, actors (recall Rob Lowe and some 16 year old girl, Jerry Seinfeld dating some teen), etc.; and
D) No one should be forced to do anything. I put sex slavery/rape in a totally different category.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38692079) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 4:45 PM Author: impertinent jap masturbator
most things arent pedo.
have you actually looked at the catholic church (((scandal)))?
its all (90+%) homosexual priests hooking up with teen men. the media still calls it pedo.
i mean did you really think priests were just driving around town in blacked out vans kidnapping little girls?
of course not. it was consensual sex with 15 year old boys who were hustling the priests for $$$ and favors.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38692283) |
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Date: August 15th, 2019 8:04 PM Author: impertinent jap masturbator
no.
it was mostly young men, not innocent boys.
word would get out in the hustler community of New York or Boston or whatever that father O'Brien was willing to help out "troubled youth" if you were "cool" with him, etc.
the idea that priests were railing the children of their actual parishioners against their will is absurd.
they were mostly railing consenting runaways whose parents weren't around to attend church.
there's a reason they're called libpedos. it was the most lib homosexual priests who were the most involved in "charitable" work that gave them access to the most desperate teens.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38693109)
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Date: August 15th, 2019 3:55 PM Author: Nofapping burgundy plaza gunner
Epstein was 100% correct here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-interview.html
He said that criminalizing sex with teenage girls was a cultural aberration and that at times in history it was perfectly acceptable. He pointed out that homosexuality had long been considered a crime and was still punishable by death in some parts of the world.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38692050) |
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Date: August 17th, 2019 4:59 PM Author: Stirring sick nibblets
I get your point which is a very good one. At the same time - I don't know about killing and torturing your enemies for example - if you presented people with a guaranteed consequence free opportunity, I don't think many people at all would really want to kill their enemies, seeing another person suffer and scream etc.
I think an overwhelming amount of men would take the opportunity to fuck a hot 16 year old if they could get away with it - which is why so many powerful people, rockstars etc. do this b/c they have opportunity and can avoid consequences better. Also on porn sites - "teen" is one of the most popular and largest / most long standing major video categories.
Before you argue "well yes - but so is "stepmother / stepsister" etc. - that's completely different, because the women they're watching aren't actually their stepmothers, it's just some fantasy taboo element added to the scene, whereas most teen videos are actually teen girls, or if not have the young / petite looks of teens.
Paying taxes and stealing money is also quite a different category - as there are major externalities for those actions, profound externalities really - that just don't exist in a consensual sexual act between an older man and a 16 year old.
I'm not even disagreeing with you really though - it's sort of a virtue ethics type thing like what kind of 40 year old man would actually date a 16 year old? I'm not even disagreeing with the laws necessarily - just that like OP said there seems to a complete lack of distinction between the profoundly different scenarios of a) finding pre-pubescent girls attractive, and b) finding teenage girls attractive
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38701933)
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Date: August 19th, 2019 1:23 PM Author: vibrant therapy set
I'm not suggesting that it should be legal to do what Epstein did. I'm commenting on the social pressure to act disgusted by the fact that this guy wanted to bang 16 year olds.
With respect to killing your enemies, this is accounted for in our law (see e.g. voluntary manslaughter). I can also envision a situation where a normal reaction to a murder would be something like "man i would do the same thing." An example might be killing your wife's rapist or something.
Stealing and not paying taxes, again, we all understand it is beneficial to have more money. Stealing we do not tolerate it because of the harm caused to the victim. Taxes, we generally feel it is a moral responsibility to pay your taxes.
With Epstein, there is pressure to label him a "pedophile" which implies the underlying behavior and sexual impulses are deviant, disgusting and abnormal regardless of its effect on society.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4323553&forum_id=2#38709442)
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