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is "efficient breach" the most pernicious legal theory?

...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/17/24
no i think that would be the enormous body of "consTTTi...
Mischievous theater stage
  09/17/24
explain friend
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/17/24
lol @ needing this to be explained
Mischievous theater stage
  09/17/24
ok friend
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/17/24
start here friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_...
Mischievous theater stage
  09/17/24
will do friend
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/17/24
Not in a world that has attractive nuisance
180 Station Coldplay Fan
  09/17/24
what about transaction costs friend?
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/17/24
I know all about trannie costs and attractive nuisance is st...
180 Station Coldplay Fan
  09/17/24
Arent these softball questions on Bar Examination? you guy d...
deep immigrant filthpig
  09/18/24
Attractive nuisance is a real thing even if I've never litig...
180 Station Coldplay Fan
  09/18/24
It has a certain religious affiliation
curious wagecucks
  09/18/24
What do you mean friend? Why would a religion be based aroun...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
what's wrong with efficient breach? if a contract doesn't m...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
Goyim think a contract is an oath or something.
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
in 1L contracts we had some ultra-religious goy who took a v...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
Jewish professor? Lol at the mocking.
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
nah goy. but it was funny that this person was mocked all se...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
What’s he up to now? Fedsoc dork?
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
i'm a fedsoc dork! exact opposite, actually. he's an &quo...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
I wish I was never taught about it in law school, because it...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
Many breach the contract and expect not to make the other si...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
this is like saying the only time personal injury goes to co...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
So efficient breach is rarely possible because damages are u...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
The breacher causes the breached to sue and expend legal cos...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
that has nothing to do with efficient breach theory and ever...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
Wrong
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
ok fair point
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
...
translucent school sex offender
  09/18/24
...
Unhinged pearly rigor
  09/18/24
...
Violent corner stain
  09/18/24
...
embarrassed to the bone cruise ship
  09/18/24
...
adulterous yellow tanning salon
  09/18/24
Oh okay; I thought we were making some kind of empirically g...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
idk why you're so maf. i'm explicitly saying are legal syste...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
"those costs are added onto everything that has to go t...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
so, you're just gonna dodge me asking what remedy you would ...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
Kind of seems like you're suggesting that people can opt int...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
you seem like a naive retard with a child's view of the law ...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/18/24
He's still around, brother; you can go talk to him right now...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
...
startled box office
  09/18/24
so, still no answer on what you think the remedy for breach ...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
You're basically just subordinating contract to other legal ...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
right, so still no answer re: remedy for breach? you keep...
Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression
  09/18/24
Punitive damages are unconstitutional, brother. We pledged t...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
Seems like a rule to compensate for legal costs could easily...
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
In theory but that's not usually how it works
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
Yes but that’s a fault with something other than the e...
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
It's all in the legal context
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
A “hate crime” is a pretty sinister legal theory...
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
Instinctively I agree but can you explain why?
violet floppy friendly grandma public bath
  09/18/24
It sets up, effectively if not literally, a two tier crimina...
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/18/24
the argument would be that it creates thought crimes as well...
Unhinged pearly rigor
  09/18/24
we already punish based on mens rea -- if you kill with prem...
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
cr
Razzle Kitchen
  09/18/24
...
Unhinged pearly rigor
  09/18/24
this is the actually most sinister legal theory in existence...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/18/24
...
Unhinged pearly rigor
  09/18/24
It's up there, because it's not just one standalone thing. I...
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/18/24
The 7th circuit and its consequences have been a disaster fo...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
...
narrow-minded institution
  09/18/24
My 1L contracts teacher was an old school guy who made some ...
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/18/24
It's corporatist slime imo
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
as a layman i don't see anything wrong with efficient breach...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/18/24
CR. If I bash a homeless guy's brains in with a rock, I sho...
lilac demanding locus
  09/18/24
Given your philosophical premises, this is probably right.
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/19/24
Well what’s your rationale for why you don’t lik...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/19/24
Phone posting so this may ramble It helps to distinguish...
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/19/24
"If laws (and contracts are a law as to the parties bet...
startled box office
  09/19/24
I suspected that this is what you would say. Like you said a...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/19/24
A society in which people see the law solely as a means to a...
massive aphrodisiac blood rage
  09/19/24
Regular people should always see The Law and following the l...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/19/24
https://x.com/McFaul/status/1836518729355792449 You may f...
Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office
  09/19/24
jd vance the juris doctor prance
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/19/24
Indeed, if breaking a law and accepting the punishment for b...
startled box office
  09/19/24
It’s not a legal theory
Violent corner stain
  09/18/24
seriously this has been bugging me since this thread popped ...
startled box office
  09/18/24
BEEP BEEP BEEP. it's a legal rule or legal principle, namely...
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
that's not correct. efficient breach is reneging on a contra...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
This pumo has posted like 10 times ITT without knowing what ...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
...
Violent corner stain
  09/18/24
Not sure how this contradicts what I’m saying
Iridescent headpube
  09/18/24
there are absolutely "damages owed" the problem is...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
The obligee is not put back to where they were before the pr...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
If I contract with you to sell you 100 1 of a kind widgets o...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
Which is why may be a situation when specific performance co...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
yes but then you have to sue. so efficient breach only works...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
Efficient breach has nothing to do with having to sue. The b...
Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant
  09/18/24
And in many cases that is not possible
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
Seems like you're describing reliance damages, but expectati...
embarrassed to the bone cruise ship
  09/18/24
wow this is very efficient i am sure the breaching party wil...
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
(Guy who thinks efficient breach theory somehow disentitles ...
irate codepig genital piercing
  09/19/24
That’s the opposite of efficient breach. Efficient br...
Violent corner stain
  09/18/24
...
startled box office
  09/19/24
(asking for CGM's shitpipe)
glittery candlestick maker
  09/18/24
Left on red.
embarrassed to the bone cruise ship
  09/18/24
People are free to write termination fees or conditions into...
Ruby supple famous landscape painting
  09/18/24
Some jew created it
Buff vibrant laser beams elastic band
  09/18/24
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Birmingham
Sepia arousing gaping site
  09/18/24
negative commerce clause? tons of constitutional bullshit is...
Spectacular Mint Area
  09/18/24
Alimony
irate codepig genital piercing
  09/19/24
...
glittery candlestick maker
  09/19/24


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:34 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102219)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:35 PM
Author: Mischievous theater stage

no i think that would be the enormous body of "consTTTiTTTuTTTional law" that has nothing to do with the constitution

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102223)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:35 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

explain friend

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102224)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:35 PM
Author: Mischievous theater stage

lol @ needing this to be explained

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102226)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:35 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

ok friend

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102228)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:38 PM
Author: Mischievous theater stage

start here friend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Court

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102237)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:38 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

will do friend

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102239)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:36 PM
Author: 180 Station Coldplay Fan

Not in a world that has attractive nuisance

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102230)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:37 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

what about transaction costs friend?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102236)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 17th, 2024 11:50 PM
Author: 180 Station Coldplay Fan

I know all about trannie costs and attractive nuisance is still worse

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102266)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 3:54 AM
Author: deep immigrant filthpig

Arent these softball questions on Bar Examination? you guy dont ever think of them after?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102614)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 10:16 AM
Author: 180 Station Coldplay Fan

Attractive nuisance is a real thing even if I've never litigated it personally. It's evil and mostly shifts the burden of parenting from parents to the community at large. You can't have a pool because some shitgoblin will drown in it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103252)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 2:46 AM
Author: curious wagecucks

It has a certain religious affiliation

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102592)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 7:41 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

What do you mean friend? Why would a religion be based around "profitable lying?"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102774)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 7:46 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

what's wrong with efficient breach? if a contract doesn't make sense for one party anymore what's wrong with them just paying to make the other side whole?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102781)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 7:53 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

Goyim think a contract is an oath or something.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102809)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:00 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

in 1L contracts we had some ultra-religious goy who took a very moral stance on contracts and for the entire semester the professor would say "well, in X's moral world..."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102826)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:02 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

Jewish professor?

Lol at the mocking.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102832)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:07 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

nah goy. but it was funny that this person was mocked all semester. tbf he did take a very outspoken moral stance to contracts. which is funny.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102859)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:08 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

What’s he up to now? Fedsoc dork?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102866)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:12 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

i'm a fedsoc dork!

exact opposite, actually. he's an "officer" at some lib thinktank in dc. before that he was a legislative attorney for shitlibs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102878)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:08 AM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

I wish I was never taught about it in law school, because it always shocks me when some judge lectures me about my client breaching a contract and admitting to it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102868)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:14 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

Many breach the contract and expect not to make the other side whole unless they incur legal costs. If you admit to even efficient breach in court it means you're scummy because you did not make the other side whole

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102880)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:21 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

this is like saying the only time personal injury goes to court is when the other side didn't make the victim whole. sometimes the non-breacher exaggerates their damages. didn't you read the 1L case about the guy who wanted his whole plumbing system replaced because they used the wrong type of pipe?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102896)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:23 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

So efficient breach is rarely possible because damages are uncertain. Very pernicious

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102899)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:03 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

The breacher causes the breached to sue and expend legal costs. They will not actually be whole

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102836)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:05 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

that has nothing to do with efficient breach theory and everything to do with the legal system having costs. in theory the breacher should make them whole. if you want to complain about the legal system not being costless or 100% efficient than every legal theory is bullshit. but that has nothing to do with the underlying theory, only how it's implemented by ARE TTT legal system.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102849)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:07 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

Wrong

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102861)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:08 AM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

ok fair point

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102865)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 8:23 AM
Author: translucent school sex offender



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102900)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 10:56 AM
Author: Unhinged pearly rigor



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103407)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 11:04 AM
Author: Violent corner stain



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103433)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 1:27 PM
Author: embarrassed to the bone cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104324)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 7:44 PM
Author: adulterous yellow tanning salon



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106131)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 11:07 AM
Author: lilac demanding locus

Oh okay; I thought we were making some kind of empirically guided efficiency-based argument, but if instead we're just farting into our copies of the The Fountainhead and then trying to sniff out the affected page, that's cool and productive too, I guess.

In a related vein, don't you think a race-critical analysis of the MPC leads to the conclusion that the criminal law's overreliance on "scienter" is a anti-black construct designed to reinstute slavery on black bodies?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103445)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 12:38 PM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

idk why you're so maf. i'm explicitly saying are legal system is inefficient and costly. that doesn't make efficient breach wrong -- those costs are added onto everything that has to go to court.

it's a contract. you can do liquid damages too. you can get punitive damages.

what do you think the remedy should be for a breach? 3x damages?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104058)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 12:53 PM
Author: lilac demanding locus

"those costs are added onto everything that has to go to court"

I believe that was BEFORE the 2 things we were comparing were adherence to an inefficient contract, necessarily avoiding court altogether, and an efficient breach that will necessarily either go to court or settle in the shadow of litigation (including its inefficiencies and structural asymmetries).

There's nothing inherently wrong about shooting someone in the chest with a .380, either. It's the frailness of our internal organs and central circulatory system, and our cultural resistance to wearing body armor 24/7, that is the real problem.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104125)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 12:58 PM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

so, you're just gonna dodge me asking what remedy you would want? do you really want me to address your absurd analogies?

legal costs + cost of breach are often negotiated or even in the contract itself. what do you think the remedy should be? 20x actual damages? specific performance? guy can't paint your house so now he has to commit ritual suicide for dishonoring the sacred oath of contract?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104161)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 1:13 PM
Author: lilac demanding locus

Kind of seems like you're suggesting that people can opt into an efficient-breach rule by actually agreeing to efficient-breach-facilitating provisions like liquidated damages.

Shame we have to punish everyone with this newfangled legal theory championed most visibly by a literal drooling retard (posner) from the 80s rather than allowing people to rely on normative principles of trust, honor, and word as bond that have fostered human society since time immemorial.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104240)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 1:18 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

you seem like a naive retard with a child's view of the law and morality

can't believe i'm reading a thread like this where gunnerattt of all people is the voice of sober reason

posner was 180 as fuck btw, just lol at you

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104273)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 3:54 PM
Author: lilac demanding locus

He's still around, brother; you can go talk to him right now.

Be advised that he's lost a step; probably only at 85-90% of his peak cognitive capacity. So you should bring some applesauce and a plastic spoon.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105014)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 5:09 PM
Author: startled box office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105434)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 1:22 PM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

so, still no answer on what you think the remedy for breach should be?

if we could rely solely on normative principles of trust, honor, and word as bond there would be no need for contract law to begin with. contracts are going to be breached. even people that try their hardest to fulfil their promises will come up short sometimes. the question is what should happen when that happens. and you seem to have no answer for that except for ranting about libertarians and posner.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104298)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 18th, 2024 4:22 PM
Author: lilac demanding locus

You're basically just subordinating contract to other legal obligations. You'd presumably agree that the efficient murder of a child shouldn't be limited to economic damages, and most people find it totally acceptable to over-disincentivize (relative to the Hand calculus) all types of risk creation in order to live in a world that is safer than it is profit-maximizing (N.B.: not that we'll always choose that; just that we aren't fully bound in all cases to rigid adherence to Hand), and that imbues/reinforces the *values* of social responsibility. Similarly, no one's saying that there should be massive punis in every K case -- I'm not sure anyone has ever argued that. Efficient breach theory is the extremist POV, as it advocates for removal (or, if you want to make the theory more palatable, dramatic reduction) of punitive damages and, by extension, the attachment of normative opprobrium on breach of contract.

Contract is the legal embodiment of the larger and much more important social norm of promise-keeping, and you're probably a drooling autistic retard like posner -- in his Group Home for Drooling & Demented Old Retards -- if you don't understand, at some level, the role of law as 'moral teacher', solidifier and bellwether of norms, whatever exactly you want to call it.

It's like those people -- usually 116-IQ buck-toothed libertarian/FedSoc-dork types with terrible haircuts -- who scoff at how we invest resources in preventing mass tragedies (airplane crashes/hijackings, school shootings, etc.), esp. violent ones, at disproportionately high rates relative to our investment in preventing far-more-common individual deaths (highway collisions, heart disease). Most non-autists instinctively understand that this isn't about some stupid-as-fuck attempt to invest resources in the most myopically rational way; it's about the way-more-important enterprise of promoting shared values of protecting and appreciating human life, avoiding mass tragedy and hardening of sentimentality that comes with its repeated recurrence, and in general fostering norms that operate outside the legal system and are roughly 1,000,000,000x more important than any gay faggot shit going on within the legal system itself.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105207)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 4:52 PM
Author: Misanthropic Shivering Electric Furnace Indirect Expression

right, so still no answer re: remedy for breach?

you keep bringing up murder as if we don't *ALREADY* have a civil and criminal system. if i murder a child i *AM* liable for economically *AS WELL* as criminally. that's sort of the point -- one is focused on ECONOMIC remedies and making people harmed whole, and the other is PUNISHING people for immoral or antisocial behavior. for all of your blathering shit we all discussed in fall of 1L year it never seemed to occur to you that a dual system exists that can punish an act *AND* make someone wronged whole again.

and for all your blathering about ARE sacred legal system failing to protect morality like in the bucolic days of our forefathers, you don't seem to have considered for a second that we're discussing BLACK LETTER CONTRACT LAW THAT HAS EXISTED IN THE COMMON LAW FOR CENTURIES BEFORE AMERICA EXISTED.

the law has criminal punishments for plenty white collar crimes. even in civil court you can get punitive damages for egregious conduct. again, you've proposed nothing and have only ranted about fedsoc and posner and idyllic fantasies of the past.

it's a foundational principle of civil law that the purpose is to compensate the plaintiff for harms caused by the defendant. for all of your 1L blather you seem to have missed this. this doesn't begin and end with contracts, it's the same with torts, so you can stop making your nuanced point that "ACTUALLY IF THE REMEMDY FOR BREACH IS TO MAKE THE NON-BREACHING PARTY WHOLE IN A PURELY ECONOMIC TRANSACTION THAT'S RRRREALLLLLLLLLLY NO DIFFERENT THAN PUTTING A PRICE ON CHILDREN'S LIVES!"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105354)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 6:42 PM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

Punitive damages are unconstitutional, brother. We pledged to uphold the constitution.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105830)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:06 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

Seems like a rule to compensate for legal costs could easily correct this, but this has nothing to do with the efficient breach theory

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102853)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:07 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

In theory but that's not usually how it works

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102857)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:08 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

Yes but that’s a fault with something other than the efficient breach theory

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102869)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:09 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

It's all in the legal context

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102871)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:54 AM
Author: Iridescent headpube

A “hate crime” is a pretty sinister legal theory.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102812)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:26 AM
Author: violet floppy friendly grandma public bath

Instinctively I agree but can you explain why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103286)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:55 AM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

It sets up, effectively if not literally, a two tier criminal justice system based on the respective races of the perpetrators

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103402)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:57 AM
Author: Unhinged pearly rigor

the argument would be that it creates thought crimes as well as the above

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103410)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 12:48 PM
Author: Iridescent headpube

we already punish based on mens rea -- if you kill with premeditation, it's worse than if you kill with intent to kill and no premeditation... ans it's worse with you kill with intent to kill than if you're extremely reckless disregarding human life but didn't intend to kill.

adding "hate crime" is just bullshit SJW garbage that double punishes for what the concept of mens rea already covers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104105)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 12:50 PM
Author: Razzle Kitchen

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104118)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 1:42 PM
Author: Unhinged pearly rigor



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104414)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 12:58 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

this is the actually most sinister legal theory in existence rn

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104158)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:17 AM
Author: Unhinged pearly rigor



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48102887)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:20 AM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

It's up there, because it's not just one standalone thing. It's the leading edge of a completely new way of thinking about "law" and how people should react to law

Efficient breach itself is in a commercial context, which is how it got traction. But if you start looking at legal instruments in general as things that can be cast aside if it's more "efficient" there's no logical reason why it should be limited to commercial contracts

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103265)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:20 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

The 7th circuit and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103268)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:30 AM
Author: narrow-minded institution



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103299)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:57 AM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

My 1L contracts teacher was an old school guy who made some negative comments about efficient breach. The "smart" students were talking after class about how behind the times he was.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103408)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 11:00 AM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

It's corporatist slime imo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103422)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 12:57 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

as a layman i don't see anything wrong with efficient breach from my 5 minute wikipedia read. in fact it seems totally cr

why do you think it's so bad? in general, i agree with the view that The Law should be incentivizing people to act in ways that are maximally beneficial/good to society as a whole, which is what this theory seems to be going for. the difficult part is defining that Good. economic cost/benefit calculations are an imperfect but pretty good way of doing that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48104153)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 4:37 PM
Author: lilac demanding locus

CR. If I bash a homeless guy's brains in with a rock, I should be rewarded (or at least not punished) for promoting the Public Good, as Mr. Begay was a spiraling fent addict and a major drain on society.

This result, even when visibly repeated and enshrined into precedent, will not in any way impair the maintenance of core beliefs about the sanctity of human life, equal justice under the law, compassion for the less fortunate, etc. The decision is just ink stamped on paper in a courtroom that has no effect on anything else.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105296)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 11:29 AM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

Given your philosophical premises, this is probably right.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48108789)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 12:23 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

Well what’s your rationale for why you don’t like it? How am I supposed to know what the Correct Take is if you don’t tell me?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109027)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 1:08 PM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

Phone posting so this may ramble

It helps to distinguish between efficient breach as an occurrence and efficient breach as a concept. People breach contracts. This is not a secret. No attorney is surprised to hear the people breach contracts.

This becomes problematic IMO only when you formalize it. What efficient breach, as a doctrine, really means is that it's not a breach but a built-in part of the deal. It is the concept that you go into the contract with the intention of breaching it in the right circumstances. It's a philosophy, or the beginning of a philosophy, that law is not something to be obeyed, but something to be obeyed or ignored at your convenience. Obviously lots of people think this way anyway. But efficient breach brings that opinion into the legal academy and the judiciary, whose job it is to enforce those laws. If laws (and contracts are a law as to the parties between them) can be set aside upon an individual judgment that it would be more efficient, they aren't really laws at all. This is a dangerous path for judges and law professors to begin wandering

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109261)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 1:23 PM
Author: startled box office

"If laws (and contracts are a law as to the parties between them) can be set aside upon an individual judgment that it would be more efficient, they aren't really laws at all. This is a dangerous path for judges and law professors to begin wandering"

That's not what efficient breach says, i.e., that the contract can be 'set aside'. Efficient breach says, "I choose to accept the consequences of my actions (breach, damages) because the alternative (performance) would be worse for me." Nobody is saying the efficient breacher didn't breach the contract or shouldn't pay damages for breaching. From my understanding the court treats the breach of contract as a breach of contract. "Efficient" is more a way to describe it from the breacher or breachee's point of view. The breacher just breached because that was the most efficient way for it to get ahead, and, after all, wasn't that the motivation for both parties to get into the contract in the first place?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109331)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 1:53 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

I suspected that this is what you would say. Like you said above, it's a philosophical question about what The Law really is, and its role in Society

I've had this same debate/discussion with my irl lawyer friends many times. Very few lawyers I've met are sophisticated enough to understand The Law as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself. After learning from friends and colleagues about how The Legal System really works in practice, I'm more sympathetic to the argument that you're making above than I was as a true layman who knew nothing about the workings of the legal system in practice

In practice, the members of the legal system *must* treat it as an end in and of itself, with ironclad rules that exist to be rules to be followed, because the system won't function otherwise. These people are not intelligent and sophisticated enough to understand the law as a means to an end, and even if they were, our society is now fractured and incoherent to the point where a common Good no longer exists

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109474)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 2:42 PM
Author: massive aphrodisiac blood rage

A society in which people see the law solely as a means to an end is likely to be more fractured and incoherent than a society where people believe that following the law is itself a "good"? mho jmho ofc

This all assumes a concept of "the law" that is itself internally coherent, thoughtful, and not constantly changing based on the whims of assorted retards ofc haha

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109738)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 3:07 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

Regular people should always see The Law and following the law's rules as itself a good. Whether that law is secular or god-given. There is no other way. They're not sophisticated enough to handle anything beyond that. As God or The State commands, so shall they follow

The question is how the Custodians And Writers Of The Law should view and treat the law. Any philosopher grasps that the proper way is to treat it as a means to an end, in the same way that every other facet of society is a means to the end of society. But when these people are, we'll call them, "assorted retards," this doesn't work so well, and it would seem that the prudent and practical course is for them to collectively settle on a consensus to treat The Law as an end in the same way that the common people do

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109845)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 3:22 PM
Author: Cordovan laughsome associate principal's office

https://x.com/McFaul/status/1836518729355792449

You may find this amusing

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109912)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 3:25 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

jd vance the juris doctor prance

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109925)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 1:37 PM
Author: startled box office

Indeed, if breaking a law and accepting the punishment for breaking said law was better for individuals than complying with said law, then people would break said law. Great insight, champ

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109398)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 11:04 AM
Author: Violent corner stain

It’s not a legal theory

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48103429)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 4:56 PM
Author: startled box office

seriously this has been bugging me since this thread popped up yesterday. it's more like a business maneuver than a legal theory

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105373)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 5:08 PM
Author: Iridescent headpube

BEEP BEEP BEEP. it's a legal rule or legal principle, namely that no damages are owed to the non-breaching party when there is an efficient breach.

is that a legal theory? i dunno wtf a difference is between a legal rule, a legal principle, and a legal theory.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48105431)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:44 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

that's not correct. efficient breach is reneging on a contractual promise if the cost to do so (damages to make other party whole) is lower than the benefit

which is bullshit because the other party relied on the promise. So unless they can get an injunction, they are SOL and simply put back to where they were prior to the promise. That isn't actually making them whole. It's often a shitty thing to do because but "acceptable" because "efficiency"

its in fact a very slimly legal theory that pretends like its NBD when in real life it's slimly

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106129)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:45 PM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

This pumo has posted like 10 times ITT without knowing what efficient breach is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106132)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:00 PM
Author: Violent corner stain



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106813)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:46 PM
Author: Iridescent headpube

Not sure how this contradicts what I’m saying

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106139)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:47 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

there are absolutely "damages owed" the problem is "damages" only make people whole in a formal sense. The non-breaching party has e.g. lost time, additional search costs, etc at a minimum. In worse cases, they cannot do whatever they wanted to do with the contractual promise, unless they can get an injunction (in which case, legal fees, lost time, etc).

it's a shitty economic formalism concocted by math autists with no IRL experience

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106143)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:55 PM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

The obligee is not put back to where they were before the promise was made. They are put in the position they should be in if the promise was fulfilled.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106194)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:57 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

If I contract with you to sell you 100 1 of a kind widgets only I can provide to you for your output, and i breach after 50 because its too expensive, no amount of money could make you whole or put you back where you were. Consider e.g. the significance of the passage of time.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106204)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:08 PM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

Which is why may be a situation when specific performance could be an option. More likely than not they aren't one of a kind, especially since the plan is to make 100 of them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106251)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:11 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

yes but then you have to sue. so efficient breach only works for commodities

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106265)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:13 PM
Author: Multi-colored Pisswyrm Legal Warrant

Efficient breach has nothing to do with having to sue. The breaching party should offer to give the non breaching party something equivalent to the benefit of the bargain.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106267)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:17 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

And in many cases that is not possible

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106287)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:31 PM
Author: embarrassed to the bone cruise ship

Seems like you're describing reliance damages, but expectation damages should restore them to the position they would be in if the contract had not been breached (in theory).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106383)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:33 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

wow this is very efficient i am sure the breaching party will have no problem calculating actual and reliance damages piece of cake and parties will certainly agree on this simple value

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106387)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 11:47 AM
Author: irate codepig genital piercing

(Guy who thinks efficient breach theory somehow disentitles a party to expectation damages)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48108859)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:00 PM
Author: Violent corner stain

That’s the opposite of efficient breach. Efficient breach is when the benefit of breach is greater than the damages that must be paid to the non-breaching party. The non-breaching party is still made whole.

Damages is a legal principle, efficient breach is an economic one.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106811)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 12:25 PM
Author: startled box office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48109032)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 7:47 PM
Author: glittery candlestick maker

(asking for CGM's shitpipe)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106140)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:29 PM
Author: embarrassed to the bone cruise ship

Left on red.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106370)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 8:38 PM
Author: Ruby supple famous landscape painting

People are free to write termination fees or conditions into contracts. If they don’t, the price to terminate should be whatever the consenting party will accept. If suppliers don’t like the uncertainty they can make some other concession to get an upfront agreement on termination fee. And if you as a supplier fail to negotiate any of this and then breach to take another opportunity, force your customer to sue, and lose on the merits, you should get absolutely fucked in the ass for being a dumb asshole.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106407)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:03 PM
Author: Buff vibrant laser beams elastic band

Some jew created it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106837)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 10:04 PM
Author: Sepia arousing gaping site

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Birmingham

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48106840)



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Date: September 18th, 2024 11:20 PM
Author: Spectacular Mint Area

negative commerce clause? tons of constitutional bullshit is way worse than this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48107210)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 11:50 AM
Author: irate codepig genital piercing

Alimony

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48108869)



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Date: September 19th, 2024 4:40 PM
Author: glittery candlestick maker



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5596830&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5304212",#48110180)