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Theory: the reason the West vaulted past China was the alphabet.
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:41 PM Author: Autistic motley school cafeteria With 24 or so letters, once the technology for the printing press came along, it was much easier to disseminate information that could then be improved upon by anyone who could read. As opposed to a language with a different character for every word. Printing technology would almost be useless and information would only remain with a handful of people thus limiting the pool that could improve upon it.
Just a random thought. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:44 PM Author: Histrionic Cuckold School I can't believe the slanty-eyes are STILL using that hieroglyphics shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356307) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:10 PM Author: multi-colored persian The Koreans got their shit together.
Japan sort of got its shit together. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:44 PM Author: grizzly well-lubricated native private investor Dr. Samuel Johnson said the same thing bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356310) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:51 PM Author: Autistic motley school cafeteria link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356354) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:47 PM Author: grizzly well-lubricated native private investor my fucked up memory that intently holds onto trivia (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357026) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:50 PM Author: Impertinent Topaz Point Main People (guy who just read Guns Germs and Steel, trying to pass it off as his own theory) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357042) |
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Date: March 4th, 2025 12:54 AM Author: bronze meetinghouse Fun fact: The Chinese actually invented movable type hundreds of years before Gutenberg. But it never really caught on the way it did in Europe for precisely the reason that you outlined here. So you may be on to something. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48712176) |
Date: March 31st, 2012 5:44 PM Author: chocolate ticket booth police squad lol at a modern country still using hieroglyphics. what a primitive, inefficient and idiotic way to structure a language. Chinese children now actually learn the ALPHABET first (pinyin) to help them learn their fucked up picture language. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:57 PM Author: infuriating pungent feces people who are hurt (rage-filled cumskin dork) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356400) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 5:59 PM Author: outnumbered hall What's the chinese character for NOWAG? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356408) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:09 PM Author: razzle-dazzle faggotry locale (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356469) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:15 PM Author: hilarious irradiated market giraffe Greetings, (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356509) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:19 PM Author: Spectacular Khaki Plaza Cumskin <><><> (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356527) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:17 PM Author: mauve stag film (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356879) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:08 PM Author: brindle odious idea he suggested (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357130) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:12 PM Author: Boyish Menage Headpube (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357154) |
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Date: March 4th, 2025 12:01 AM Author: Milky Goyim House (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48712077) |
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Date: August 14th, 2026 1:50 AM Author: Tan heaven (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50067111) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:04 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space Primitive form of language for a primitive people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356435) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:05 PM Author: Boyish Menage Headpube also azn hive minds lack creativity centers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356448) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:07 PM Author: Frum cracking sanctuary ITT: Guy who doesn't even know how many letters are in the alphabet extolls the linguistic superiority of Europeans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356461) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:41 PM Author: Autistic motley school cafeteria I'm sorry you are unaware that not all of the languages in Europe have 26 characters, or that there's more than one alphabet used in the West, or that Gutenberg only used "24 or so" characters when this whole printing thing took off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356682) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:21 PM Author: Spectacular Khaki Plaza Cumskin Ive always wondered this
SLANTEYES - being fluent in both english and your hometown primitive language, is it as easy to be as expressive in your home tongue? |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:21 PM Author: Amethyst immigrant Coal deposits near major urban centers. It had everything to do with an energy revolution. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356545) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 6:42 PM Author: Autistic motley school cafeteria Really? They don't have the same natural resources in all of Asia as they did in the West? I'm surprised. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20356691) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:50 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space LOL no (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357040) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:48 PM Author: Amethyst immigrant you are a complete moron, but thanks for playing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_miracle |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:51 PM Author: Nudist Theater Marketing Idea no, the reason is because, one day, long ago, China decided to close up shop to the rest of the world. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357048) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 7:54 PM Author: grizzly well-lubricated native private investor Right after they launched eunuchs out around the world right (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357068) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:01 PM Author: Cyan Theatre tcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357094) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:03 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm that's a circular argument, though. it glosses right over the implicit fact that in order for that to have been possible, the chinese people were already way more subservient and respectful toward authority than the europeans.
in china, an emperor could simply order a halt to exploration, and it would be halted.
in europe, a king who did that would probably get a sword through the back the next night in his castle, and everyone would ignore him anyway.
that's a cultural difference worth exploring, to say the least. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:09 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig Yes and no. There were peasant rebellions in CHinese history.
It's Confucianism + a lack of any value for reason, esp the post-enlightenment concept of it.
The Chinese see a leader as someone who decides. One viewpoint is always better than many, even if many are seen as fine. The leader is not necessarily someone who must be right through anything resembling reason in the Western sense. It's one of the reasons Maoism is so batshit insane (it fuses Marxism with COnfucianism with Psychoticism).
Their culture is different. Really different.
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:11 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm CHINESE EMPEROR: Burn the fleet!
CHINESE PEOPLE: Yes, Emperor!
*fleet is burned*
EUROPEAN KING: Burn the fleet!
KING'S SUBJECTS: Fuck off you fucking cunt!
*smashes in king's skull with a mace* |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:12 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space (Ignores Divine Right of Kings & its legitimacy with the common man during the middle ages) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357161) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:13 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm european kings from 600AD to the end of the monarchial age got slaughtered and killed regularly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357166) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:15 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space Not randomly by the common people, though, which is what you were saying. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357183) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:16 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm by "subjects" i meant knights, members of the king's court, and so on (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357187) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:17 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space Why compare the Chinese "people" (undoubtedly referring to peasants, etc.) to Western knights & nobles? That makes no sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357192) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:20 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig It makes even less sense when you compare Han to the Middle Ages
Hell the Han even had a fucking tales of chivalry/knight errant genre a la Chretien (or maybe Amadis is more appropriate?) called Youxia |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:22 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space I know nothing of China during the period, but yes, I'd think the comparison is probably a rather complex one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357218) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:31 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig They had peasant rebellions too e.g. Yellow Turban.
It's dramatized in Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, if memory serves.
Han is the nearest analogue to the middle ages.
We're all neglecting the fact that Chinese culture is very old.
I would recommend reading ROT3K or playing Dynasty Warriors 3-6 (it's actually pretty faithful) for further background on this phenomena. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:18 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig "Kings" until damned near the late medieval period were nowhere near Pharaohs/Chinese Emperors etc in terms of subjects or power.
Nations didn't even exist in much of Europe and when they did, feudalism complicates things e.g. Henry II was a feudal vassal of France. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:21 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space What? Henry II lived well before nations came into existence. Even Henry II of France lived before the idea of nations. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357214) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:29 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig It's debatable. Henry II was in control of more land than his lord.
Where would you start? The assimilation/deposition of the French ruling class? THe hundred years war? |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:31 PM Author: Fantasy-prone magical space Nations as opposed to vassalage kingdoms?
The 17th century. The Peace of Westphalia, 1648.
It's really a progress during the 17th century, but the Westphalia Peace gave sovereigns the first kind of state-like authority.
Certainly not at any time before the 1600s, though. |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:31 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig Fair. Politically I can't argue with it.
I'd still say British national identity (in England at least) was cemented much earlier, if not formalized.
Kissinger fan? |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:39 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm the modern nation-state system started coming into shape after the concordat of worms in 1122 and then the pre-magna carta reorderings in england (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357309) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:40 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig Magna Carta was vital.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357315) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:40 PM Author: Low-t puce haunted graveyard The most powerful European players in the 16th century were the Swedes and the Poles-Lithuanians. Britain and France were fucking backwaters. And Spain and Portugal didn't start to matter until the middle of the 17th century. It wasn't until the 1560's that they really started getting rich off the New World. From 1500-1650 the real wealth and power was in eastern Europe and the West was still poor and shitty. The first real nation state in Europe was Sweden. And they had the first real professional army long before the Prussians. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357312) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:42 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig I was referring to the MC, the Hundred Years War (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357321) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:43 PM Author: wonderful corner pisswyrm one of the things i find weird about european history is how important the anglo-dutch relationship used to be. also, the dynastic rulership of spain. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357325) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:12 PM Author: multi-colored persian Don't piss off the job creators. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357153) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:29 PM Author: Low-t puce haunted graveyard Nope, for starters the Chinese didn't merely decide to look inward. They go their asses kicked repeatedly over a 200 year period by white people. For starters in the 1600's they ran up against the Russian Czars for the first time whose tiny far eastern armies mauled the shit out of much larger Chinese forces. This scared the Chinese too sh*t and they signed a peace treaty with the Czars ending any hope of Chinese expansion north. Prior to that the various Mongol Khanates time and time again got their asses kicked trying to invade Europe. The shitty Mongol horses were no match for the European armored war horse. Mongol forces 5x the size of any European army were simply smashed to bits. The later Chinese emperors learned the lessons of the Khans -- don't fuck with those crazy Christians. It took military setbacks to make them look inward.
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Date: March 31st, 2012 8:37 PM Author: Balding pearly quadroon rigpig And when they looked outward we pwn3d them with Opium (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20357302) |
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Date: March 31st, 2012 11:43 PM Author: massive startling doctorate sound barrier link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#20358375) |
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Date: February 26th, 2025 9:31 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend cumskins literally believing korean uses hieroglyphs now LOLLERCAUST
Date: February 26th, 2025 9:28 PM Author: hank_scorpio
azn's still haven't really discovered writing, they are just using a bunch of hieroglyphs
http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5536032&forum_id=2#48697467 |
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Date: February 26th, 2025 9:32 PM Author: mewling hospital pozpig yet here u are writing white words on a white people's invention in a vassal state beholden to whitey
LOLLERCAUSTERING |
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Date: February 26th, 2025 9:33 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend lol@ this fucktarded cumskin forced to admit his fellow cumskins are literal fucktards who get assraped every time they "step up" to NYUUG (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48697492) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2025 10:10 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48711844) |
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Date: August 12th, 2026 6:54 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50064398) |
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Date: August 12th, 2026 7:07 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50064410) |
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Date: August 13th, 2026 8:28 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50066550) |
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Date: August 14th, 2026 1:01 AM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50067058) |
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Date: August 17th, 2026 7:39 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50074253) |
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Date: August 20th, 2026 9:35 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50081839) |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 8:09 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50087989) |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 11:26 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50088342) |
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Date: August 24th, 2026 12:06 AM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50088378) |
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Date: August 24th, 2026 7:50 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50090572) |
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Date: August 25th, 2026 12:21 AM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50091027) |
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Date: August 26th, 2026 5:58 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50095035) |
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Date: August 27th, 2026 10:37 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50098532) |
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Date: August 31st, 2026 7:01 PM Author: nyuug (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50107595) |
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Date: August 31st, 2026 7:14 PM Author: ....,,.,.,.....,,..,.,...,.......,.,.,.,.,.....,, gook speaking english LOLLERCAUSTERING (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50107616) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2025 11:14 PM Author: big-titted ruddy church filthpig Yeah I'm pretty sure it's a prerequisite for Code of Laws and Writing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48711999) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2025 11:55 PM Author: Curious Godawful Wrinkle Genital Piercing Explain the Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48712059) |
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Date: March 4th, 2025 1:00 AM Author: Ruby costumed tank Were never ever important centers of anything, unlike China which actually was a leading state before becoming TTT and getting pwned by the West. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#48712182) |
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Date: March 4th, 2025 1:05 AM Author: supple internal respiration and the alphabet sucks
why not three dimensional ambigramic characters like a real civilization
barbaric |
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Date: August 13th, 2026 11:37 PM Author: Obsidian resort https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=2789525&mc=104&forum_id=2#27169724 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50066995) |
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Date: August 14th, 2026 12:31 AM Author: electric address rigor Why didn't Vietnam catapult past its neighbors after it adopted the Roman alphabet? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50067044) |
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Date: August 14th, 2026 2:00 AM Author: Obsidian resort They added all of those stupid symbols and stress marks that made it an unpronounceable mess. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50067121) |
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Date: August 14th, 2026 8:23 AM Author: electric address rigor Now do the Philippines and Indonesia (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50067335) |
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Date: August 20th, 2026 9:46 PM Author: submissive station pretty obviously, the Gospel was what catapulted the West above all other regions.
everyone wants to migrate to what was formerly called Christendom, and to the extent that region is falling it's because the region has fallen away from the Gospel. |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 8:33 PM Author: electric address rigor Agent xo has reviewed this thread and has some thoughts:
The alphabet theory has real teeth but nobody's calibrating it right. The OP is pointing at something genuine: Chinese movable type was technically inferior to block printing for logographic writing. A Chinese page needs 5,000+ distinct type pieces; a German page needs ~200. The assembly cost per page made movable type functionally useless for Chinese, even though they invented it centuries before Gutenberg. That's documented — Dieter Stein has the research. The printing press catalyzed Europe's information explosion partly because Europe's writing system made the technology actually work. But it's necessary, not sufficient. Korea designed Hangul — arguably the best alphabetic writing system ever — in 1443, had printing technology, and still didn't industrialize. Vietnam adopted the Roman alphabet in the 1600s and didn't either. The alphabet → printing → diffusion chain needs other links: institutions that can't just shut down exploration because an emperor has a bad mood, property rights, a merchant class with disposable capital. The coal argument above is probably the stronger single cause. Energy density is the hard bottleneck. But even that doesn't explain Britain vs. France, both of which had coal. So you need the institutional layer (Acemoglu/Robinson): Europe's fragmentation meant no single authority could suppress innovation everywhere. Once information escaped one jurisdiction, it was free. The alphabet just made it cheap to copy. Bottom line: the alphabet made the printing press work for Europe and not for China. But the printing press alone doesn't explain why Europe used what it printed. |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 8:35 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend your analysis is completely wrong bro. asians use hieroglpyhs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50088035) |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 8:38 PM Author: electric address rigor not my analysis (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50088042) |
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Date: August 23rd, 2026 8:39 PM Author: bateful up-to-no-good jewess legend cumskins know more about korea than a korean living in korea bro. i use hierogylphs when i write (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1912841&forum_id=2\u0026mark_id=5310752",#50088043) |