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GRAMMAR Folks: How can a native speaker of English not understand rules?

I never learned any grammar rules as a child. My entire lif...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
because the English language has eliminated most endings, ca...
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
  10/16/24
Holy shit, I never knew this was a rule. It really does see...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
correct. but how can you test something if you don't teac...
TRUMP TEAM SIX
  10/16/24
Because when you’re learning a new language as a non n...
Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife
  10/16/24
But no one who learns a language in high school can speak it...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
Correct. I've learned other languages. You learn them like a...
TRUMP TEAM SIX
  10/16/24
It doesn’t work as well as being brought up from birth...
Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife
  10/16/24
yes, it's a waste of time
DR. trillionaire (Ed.D., moon studies)
  10/16/24
Almost all 5's on the AP exam for any language are native sp...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
The correct grammar in a language is what Sounds Right to mo...
Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife
  10/16/24
This seems correct. Ex. The grammar, correct, in a lang...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
Language is a dynamic, living organism, inextricably part of...
Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife
  10/16/24
*dynamic, living orgasm
""'"''""
  10/16/24
chomsky had a theory about this iirc. a "language acqui...
harold lauder
  10/16/24
Just googled this. Interesting, will examine this further. ...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
i think he'd say that although (for whatever reason) you see...
harold lauder
  10/16/24
Couldn't kids just learn the rules of grammar by accepting a...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
I learned it all in Latin class tbh
Gorilla Pimp
  10/16/24
...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
I never learned, as a child, any grammar rules. As a chil...
Karlstack's transsexual crush
  10/16/24
I never, as a child, learned any grammar rules. I, as a chi...
""'"''""
  10/16/24
Seems better if more formal: I never learned, as a child,...
Karlstack's transsexual crush
  10/16/24
The rules of grammar, as a child, I never learned.
""'"''""
  10/16/24
Talk like Yoda.
Drunkard
  10/16/24


Poast new message in this thread



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Date: October 16th, 2024 1:16 PM
Author: ""'"''""

I never learned any grammar rules as a child. My entire life, I have written based on my sense of what "sounds right." I have recently taken an interest in understanding the structure of my native language, English, and I have come to the conclusion that I am completely incapable of understanding and remembering grammar terminology and rules or applying them in any meaningful way.

For example, in the first sentence, I used a prepositional phrase "as a child" which functions as an adverb phrase modifying the verb "learned." Why is not ok to put "as a child" before "grammar"? I could have put it after learned (I never learned, as a child, any grammar rules), or after I (I, as a child, never learned any grammar rules) or after never (I never, as a child, learned any grammar rules), but they sound weird and I can't figure out why and what rule applies.

I am beginning to feel illiterate. Is studying grammar elaborate flame? Why or why not? Discuss.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204057)



Reply Favorite

Date: October 16th, 2024 1:58 PM
Author: ""'"''""



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204255)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:13 PM
Author: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


because the English language has eliminated most endings, cases, etc., order becomes paramount for coherent meaning. in many other languages you can take a sentence like "the boy kicks the dog" and it will be three words (boy, kick, dog) and because of the endings you can say the three words in any order at all. the word "boy" will have an ending meaning "thing that does the action" and the word "dog" will have an ending meaning "the thing that receives the action."

so English has explicit and implicit rules about order.

have you ever looked at the order of adjectives in the English language? it's mind blowing that you know and use these rules but you cannot explain the rules.

we all know that you say, "the big green truck" and not "the green big truck." there is an implicit rule about order.

https://englishstudyonline.org/order-of-adjectives/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcOfYlMfDz0



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204313)



Reply Favorite

Date: October 16th, 2024 2:46 PM
Author: ""'"''""

Holy shit, I never knew this was a rule. It really does seem like the only way to learn grammar is to spend a lot of time listening to/reading the language and not worrying about learning actual rules. Why do high school foreign language classes spend so much time doing grammar exercises? It seems like the same principle should apply there.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204454)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:49 PM
Author: TRUMP TEAM SIX

correct.

but how can you test something if you don't teach it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204459)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:50 PM
Author: Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife

Because when you’re learning a new language as a non native speaker, memorizing the actual abstract grammar rules is the most efficient way to learn to be able to speak the language at a functional level

Native speakers don’t have to do this. It was already more efficient for them to unconsciously absorb all these grammar patterns as children via passive osmosis

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204463)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:52 PM
Author: ""'"''""

But no one who learns a language in high school can speak it worth shit. Clearly memorizing abstract grammar rules doesn't work.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204474)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:55 PM
Author: TRUMP TEAM SIX

Correct. I've learned other languages. You learn them like a baby does-- by using them. Use it incorrectly, people correct you, and then you say it right. You will learn to say it right faster than learning WHY to stay it like that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204481)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 3:01 PM
Author: Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife

It doesn’t work as well as being brought up from birth as a native speaker, obviously. But it’s the most effective and efficient method for an adult learner

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204512)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 8:15 PM
Author: DR. trillionaire (Ed.D., moon studies)

yes, it's a waste of time

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205643)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 8:25 PM
Author: ""'"''""

Almost all 5's on the AP exam for any language are native speakers. lol.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205672)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:48 PM
Author: Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife

The correct grammar in a language is what Sounds Right to most native speakers

It seems like a tautology but talk to any linguist and they will say this is the cr way to understand grammar and language

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204457)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:54 PM
Author: ""'"''""

This seems correct.

Ex.

The grammar, correct, in a language is what, to most native speakers, sounds right. <---100% grammatically correct sentence according to all formal rules of grammar (I think). But sounds weird as fuck compared to your sentence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204480)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 3:05 PM
Author: Chris Rufo Is A Beta Faggot With An Ugly Azn Wife

Language is a dynamic, living organism, inextricably part of the body population that utilizes it. It’s constantly changing

Ethnostates are correct to fear English’s dominance and take steps to encourage use and primacy of their own native language. It’s a part of a people as much as blood and soil is

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204527)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 3:14 PM
Author: ""'"''""

*dynamic, living orgasm

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204557)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:54 PM
Author: harold lauder (giant inscrutable matrices)

chomsky had a theory about this iirc. a "language acquisition device".

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204478)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 2:59 PM
Author: ""'"''""

Just googled this. Interesting, will examine this further. How would Chomsky respond to my initial post (if he were still responding to e-mails)?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204503)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 3:22 PM
Author: harold lauder (giant inscrutable matrices)

i think he'd say that although (for whatever reason) you seem incapable of consciously understanding grammatical rules/concepts, your LAD (which you do not have conscious access to) has absorbed these rules (or perhaps has them built in). kind of like how a dog knows the laws of physics when it jumps to get a ball but does not understand Newton's law of gravitation in conscious terms.

his argument for a LAD is quite clever. before the LAD theory, i think the main theory for how children learned language was reinforcement learning (e.g. parents saying "good" or "bad" to a child who spoke a correct/incorrect sentence). he showed that this reinforcement learning is insufficient to learn the rules of grammar. so the rules of grammar must in some sentence be innate in the brain.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204596)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 4:05 PM
Author: ""'"''""

Couldn't kids just learn the rules of grammar by accepting as true and valid whatever they hear over and over again? That is to say, the rules of grammar are not innate, but whatever is in the environment becomes innate?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204801)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 3:29 PM
Author: Gorilla Pimp

I learned it all in Latin class tbh

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48204630)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 6:50 PM
Author: ""'"''""



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205376)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 6:55 PM
Author: Karlstack's transsexual crush

I never learned, as a child, any grammar rules.

As a child, I never learned any grammar rules.

Seeks to kind of work in any order.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205386)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 6:57 PM
Author: ""'"''""

I never, as a child, learned any grammar rules.

I, as a child, never learned any grammar rules.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205391)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 7:03 PM
Author: Karlstack's transsexual crush

Seems better if more formal:

I never learned, as a child, any of the rules of grammar.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205415)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 10:38 PM
Author: ""'"''""

The rules of grammar, as a child, I never learned.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48206184)



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Date: October 16th, 2024 7:10 PM
Author: Drunkard

Talk like Yoda.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5612558&forum_id=2#48205449)