Hilarious how many people on xo believe in GOD
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Date: May 9th, 2021 6:26 PM Author: shivering parlour
“Now, what do these results mean? You can be sure that some atheists will read the latter two sets of results as evidence only that many people who believe in God for non-philosophical reasons have flooded into philosophy of religion and medieval studies. And they will read the former results as evidence that philosophers who don’t enter the field with a religious ax to grind are more likely to be atheists.
But of course there is another obvious way to interpret the results in question – as clear evidence that those philosophers who have actually studied the arguments for theism in depth, and thus understand them the best – as philosophers of religion and medieval specialists naturally would – are far more likely to conclude that theism is true...”
The atheist perspective seems like the more reasonable interpretation. I assume most of those theistic philosophers of religion were already theists before they became philosophers — it’s not like they converted as a result of studying the arguments. In fact most of them were probably not merely theists to begin with, but rather, full-blown Christians... and the philosophical arguments generally deal only with plain theism, not Christianity, and it’s not like most Christians were converted via philosophical argumentation.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431100) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 6:32 PM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
I actually don't think either data set is particularly enlightening. For the philosophers of religion, it might well be as you say. But I see no good reason to think that philosophers in general have actually studied the best arguments to believe in God, so I don't think the general numbers mean all that much.
Philosophy generally seems to operate according to a science-aping specialization paradigm where people know about their little niche of study but not about anything else. That is the perfect environment for groupthink and ignorance to develop - just get a few people to declare that theism is over, and then it becomes received wisdom.
That's not to say that you can't investigate those arguments and come out an atheist. I just strongly doubt that most people in academic philosophy actually have. I mean, intro philosophy courses regularly just skip the medieval period altogether.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431124) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 6:53 PM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
I find Feser impressive not so much because he has great original ideas (he himself would probably disclaim originality) but because he is very good at articulating the classical Thomistic arguments and putting them in conversation with philosophical developments since the 13th century. So really it's Aquinas whom I'm impressed by. Feser is sort of the messenger.
I can't speak in general to why philosophy of religion books tend not to get into this, but I don't know if it's because they think the medieval arguments are not good ones. For WLC in particular, he explained it as follows (link https://www.reasonablefaith.org/question-answer/P20/are-my-theistic-arguments-dependent-upon-a-metaphysical-system )
"It worried me that in order to accept Thomas’ main argument for God’s existence, one had to first embrace the Aristotelian-Thomist metaphysic underlying it, for example, the so-called real distinction between essence and existence. That seemed (and seems) to me to make the argument unusually vulnerable. Just reject the controversial metaphysic underlying the argument, and the argument becomes nugatory!"
"It was then that I determined to craft arguments for God’s existence that were not system-dependent upon a particular metaphysic but could be accepted by people of varying metaphysical outlooks. That broadens the appeal of the arguments and makes them more immune to refutation."
So we might say generally that the Thomistic arguments for God's existence depend crucially on a whole lot of other argumentation on highly disputed questions. So if you just want to get straight to philosophy of religion, there's some appeal to just focusing on that instead of having to build up a metaphysical system and working out your ideas of causation, universals, transcendentals, etc. where any one mistake could invalidate the whole enterprise.
That's all well and good, but Feser is interesting to me because he does all that work to build the system and then puts the arguments for God on top of it, and I tend to find that approach more fruitful than the "metaphysically-agnostic" (so to speak) versions of the arguments. Dependence on a fully worked-out metaphysical system makes your argument more vulnerable (just reject the system), but it also makes it more powerful because you have more resources to bear on the question.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431191) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 7:26 PM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
The point of the theistic arguments is that that question has to terminate at some point and can't keep going backward to more and more things whose existence needs to be explained.
"God" is the concept used to describe the entity whose nature is such that it can terminate that regress, i.e., that it itself is the explanation for its own being, because it is being itself.
So your question is analytically equivalent to asking "Why did being itself exist," which resolves itself.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431373) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 7:34 PM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
Aquinas’s account of what it is to have intellect is summarized in a passage in which he explains why we must attribute knowledge to God:
"In God there exists the most perfect knowledge. To prove this, we must note that intelligent beings are distinguished from non-intelligent beings in that the latter possess only their own form; whereas the intelligent being is naturally adapted to have also the form of some other thing; for the idea of the thing known is in the knower. Hence it is manifest that the nature of a non-intelligent being is more contracted and limited; whereas the nature of intelligent beings has a greater amplitude and extension; therefore the Philosopher says (De Anima iii) that “the soul is in a sense all things.” Now the contraction of the form comes from the matter. Hence, as we have said above (Question 7, Article 1) forms according as they are the more immaterial, approach more nearly to a kind of infinity. Therefore it is clear that the immateriality of a thing is the reason why it is cognitive; and according to the mode of immateriality is the mode of knowledge. Hence it is said in De Anima ii that plants do not know, because they are wholly material. But sense is cognitive because it can receive images free from matter, and the intellect is still further cognitive, because it is more separated from matter and unmixed, as said in De Anima iii. Since therefore God is in the highest degree of immateriality as stated above (Question 7, Article 1), it follows that He occupies the highest place in knowledge." (Summa Theologiae I.14.1)
For Aquinas, then, what makes you intelligent and a stone non-intelligent is that you can have both your own form and the stone’s form -- as you do when you grasp what a stone is -- whereas the stone can have only its own form. You possess the form of a stone “intentionally” -- in the intellect -- rather than “entitatively” -- that is to say, without being a stone. In a looser sense, though, the soul “is” all things precisely insofar as it can have the forms of all things at least “intentionally” or in the intellect. This is one reason why intellect cannot be material. Material things can possess only one substantial form at a time. Hence for a parcel of matter to posses the substantial form of a tree (for example) is just for it to be a tree, and for that same parcel to come to possess the substantial form of ashes is just for it to lose the substantial form of a tree and become ashes. But the intellect can possess multiple substantial forms -- “intentionally” -- at the same time, and without ceasing to be an intellect. (This sense of “intentionally” is the source of the modern technical philosophical term “intentionality.”)
Indeed, as the passage quoted indicates, for Aquinas the further from matter a thing is the more intelligent it is, so that God -- as pure actuality and thus maximally devoid of the potentiality that is characteristic of matter -- is supreme in intellect. Consider also the Scholastic principle of proportionate causality (which I have discussed and defended in Aquinas), according to which whatever is in an effect must in some way be in its total cause (whether “formally,” “virtually,” or “eminently”). Now God is the sustaining cause of the world, that which keeps all things in existence from moment to moment. The forms of all things -- that which makes them what they are -- must therefore exist in Him, not in an “entitative” way (since He is not a material thing nor in any other way limited) but rather in something analogous to the way in which forms exist “intentionally” in our intellects. (Cf. ST I.15.1)
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-divine-intellect.html
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431426) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 7:45 PM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
Intellects are things that possess forms without becoming the thing in question. So an intellect can possess the form of a rock or a tree without becoming a rock or tree.
The ability to possess a form without becoming the thing is a property of immaterial things. (For a material thing, the only way to possess the form of a tree is by becoming a tree.)
God is immaterial.
So God is capable of possessing forms without becoming the thing whose form he possesses, i.e., is capable of intellection.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431479) |
Date: May 9th, 2021 7:42 PM Author: puce hell boiling water
“‘There is probably a god, many things are more easily explained if there is one than if there isn’t one.”
John Von Neumann
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42431466) |
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Date: May 9th, 2021 10:10 PM Author: Blathering senate knife
Problem with works based religions is; You can follow all 613 rules your entire life, except that you mess up on one of them. What happens?
You can claim to follow all the rules of Judiaism but realistically you will fail. At that point you need god's mercy to ensure your salvation. How does a Non believing jew now rectify things?
There is also that whole Messiah thing. Ignoring the (potential) Messiah has got to count against you right?
Finally, Judaism in its current incarnation is Rabbinic Judaism which was invented post Jesus. To make your argument you would need to follow the "original" jews (at that point you then have to decide which Jewish group since there were multiple in Jesus' day which all disagreed with each other).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42432162) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 5:26 PM Author: Yapping sienna stag film people who are hurt
"Judaism says you were put on this planet by God with God's intention being that you make the earth more holy by way of good works"
And if you don't believe in God, as you note that Judaism doesn't require, then this is pure bullshit.
" In both cases the soul that survives you is nothing like the mortal you and there is no condo in the sky waiting for you, no eternal reunion with loved ones where you all sing kumbaya, no 72 virgins. You are a tiny sliver of God (like a skin cell) and you go back to being what you were before you were otherwise alive."
Which makes it a shitty religion. No one cares about this. There's no hope or salvation here. This is effectively stating that you were meaningless in life, none of your decisions ever mattered, and after death that will still be true. Everyone you lost is lost forever, as you will be too. I mean, certainly a wonderful worldview for a group of people that love scamming everyone else and destroying civilization but not one conducive to living a good life, enriching this earth, or that prepares you as a mortal person to deal with the reality of death.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42436830) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 5:21 PM Author: Yapping sienna stag film people who are hurt
"In Judaism you aren't really seeking salvation. God isnt eternally damning anyone. You arent important enough in the grand scheme for that to happen."
The whole point of religion for people is to believe that your soul matters even if you're effectively one of billions of ants.
"The question is what do you have to do to further God's work on earth"
If you don't actually believe in God then that question is total bullshit.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42436803) |
Date: May 10th, 2021 12:05 AM Author: Crusty Harsh Therapy Piazza
*sees universe* “hmmmm... how could this possibly have gotten here?” (85 iq dullard)
There is nothing more embarrassing than believing in a magic sky wizard as an “adult”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42432829) |
Date: May 10th, 2021 12:42 AM Author: Burgundy native doctorate
interesting thread all things considered. but like most threads of this type it got circular because it was so speculative in nature and truth is atheists are as dogmatic as that which they critique.
i wonder how a skeptic treats miracles. even in the modern era we have the miracle of the sun at fatima, the stigmata of padre pio, the tilma of juan diego at guadalupe, and the numerous eucharistic miracles. and that is but one set of examples. i would assume the answer is "we don't know how they happened through science yet, but that doesn't mean we will not."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433050) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 2:14 AM Author: Crusty Harsh Therapy Piazza
(not a history of physics scholar) its well known in canonical scholarship that newtonian and galileos physics along w copernicus and the epistemology of bacon overthrew Aristotelian physics resulting in the beginning of modern physics.
If you seriously think that Aristotles explanation that objects sink towards the earth, so they can go back home to the earth upon which to give it its natural stability and goodness, is not completely different from Modern Physics, then lol. I just don't know what to say to you anymore.
The point is that Newton completely removes the teleological aspect to it, and reduces physics to empirical observation without the need for added metaphysical baggage.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433309) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 1:22 AM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
"God could have waved his hand and said trannies and tranny bathrooms and tranny womans sports are how things should be"
You seem to think that theistic natural law is God arbitrarily making things good or bad for us. That is not what it is. Classical natural law theory says that human beings have a function or purpose. Consider a watch. What it means to be a watch is to tell time. If a watch tells time accurately, it is a good watch. If it does not, it is a bad watch. That is what it means to be a watch. Nothing could make it good for a watch NOT to tell time, because that would be incoherent. It would be saying, "This thing, which doesn't tell time, is a good thing whose function is to tell time." That is a self-contradiction.
Natural law is that but for humans. So God can't both create us according to a divine plan (viz. his idea of our nature) in which X is bad for us, and then say X is good for us. That would be a self-contradiction.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433203) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 2:44 AM Author: hot cerise heaven really tough guy
I do, because I'm wiser than the 118-iq liberal artists who worked for a century to displace both communal religion and individual belief in a just God from our society, without any thought about what happens after (or with jaw-droppingly retarded insights like "religion is the cause of war", etc.).
We have an intellectual community here on xoxohth.com that can handle these things. I wouldn't say those words or push those concepts elsewhere, even when I can avoid having my fingerprints on them. I recognize that ethnic pluralism is intertwined with this country's contemporary identity, that we have a history of unconscionable racial subjugation justified by whites' intellectual (etc.) superiority, and that we're poorly situated to thrive morally and practically if we're swept up in some global trend back toward government-enforced or even just socially acceptable outright racism.
But regardless of how I think it should be used or who I think should know it, I am still capable of recognizing the truth of the situation because I can look dispassionately at the evidence, which is compelling.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433358) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 2:56 AM Author: deep chad bawdyhouse
"Atheists have no more basis for saying there is no God than relgious people..."
Atheists are not asserting something extra exists. Specifically something extra that is absolutely extraordinary and like nothing we have ever seen before. Therefore Atheists don't have to make an assertion, so it isn't a "religion" in that way.
The burden of proof is on the person who is trying to prove the existence of something, not the other way around. That especially applies to something thats illogical and otherworldly.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433379) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 11:14 PM Author: Yapping sienna stag film people who are hurt
"Theists agree there is some ultimate reality but disagree about what exactly it is like. Atheists deny its existence altogether, so they take on a much larger metaphysical burden. Two theists from different traditions can appeal to one idea of the prime mover in explaining the existence of contingent beings, but an atheist has to come up with some completely different explanation."
Not really. Each religion has a different origin story, and each religion doesn't agree with the origin story of the other religions. Why is it so complicated to accept that the atheist doesn't buy any of them and thinks something else happened? It isn't a "higher burden."
Also, not sure what this "ultimate reality" schtick is. Everyone believes there's an "ultimate reality", including atheists. They just don't think it includes any God or gods (aside from maybe super powerful aliens or whatever but that wouldn't fit any real religion).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42438820) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 2:00 AM Author: glassy mind-boggling spot
Who cares anyway? These people have no relevant expertise on metaphysics. So the only relevant quality is that they have a high IQ. And sure, some of them may be smarter than me, but I have probably put in more time thinking about the actual arguments at issue than pretty much all of them have.
So on the one hand I have my own conviction based on my own fairly in depth study of these questions, and on the other there's the beliefs of a bunch of high IQ amateurs who don't know what they are talking about.
I mean, the people who are supposed to be subject matter experts often don't even know what they are talking about - see http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2021/03/tennant-on-aquinass-second-way.html - so the ill-formed consensus of a bunch of science geeks means less than nothing to me.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433284) |
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Date: May 10th, 2021 3:36 AM Author: Crusty Harsh Therapy Piazza
I was referring to the poaster. There is literally a poaster called that.
But for real, metaphysics is fucking gay and there is a reason not many philosophers today are not metaphysicians, and that starting in the 19th century, there began a pejorative usage of the term.
If I were to take any Philosophers metaphysics though, it would be PLATO who is 180 million all around.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433414) |
Date: May 10th, 2021 12:57 AM Author: hot cerise heaven really tough guy
There's no need for low-r^2 (if there's any proven relationship) proxies when we've all taken the SAT and the LSAT.
If you got a 1300 and a 169 and went to GULC, then you're a fucking retard and your smarminess about how religion is stupid doesn't change that. If you got a 1550 and a 176, then you're pretty bright and even attendance at a really gauche evangelical church doesn't change that.
What it is useful for, though, is prestige. On the right person and worn in the right way, regularly attendance at and community belonging in the right Catholic or mainline Protestant church can be highly prestigious.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4830415&forum_id=2#42433108) |
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