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the votes in Donetsk etc were ILLEGITIMATE
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Date: October 1st, 2022 11:34 AM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater This seems to be the monolithic media characterization of the referendums in the past week Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia voting to join Russia. WaPo surveyed people in these regions in April 2022, and while they tried to argue that the survey results do not include people displaced since 2014 when Russia began supporting separatist republics in these areas, WaPo admitted that the majority currently living there would vote to join Russia. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/
So isn't it awkward if the West is currently arguing for an undemocratic result in these regions? Or what am I missing -- maybe these are wealthy resource-rich areas, and Ukraine would be fucked without them so they shouldn't be allowed to secede? I'm not an expert on this topic and happy to be set straight if someone can provide more context
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:07 PM Author: Umber violent pocket flask One weird trick: force all the people who oppose you to flee, then hold a vote of only the people who support you, only in the areas you control, at gunpoint and without a secret ballot.
Every oblast of Ukraine voted to secede from Russia with an 80%+ vote in 1991, except Crimea (54%) |
Date: October 1st, 2022 11:36 AM Author: Jade theater stage Now libs like questioning elections again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45261482) |
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Date: October 1st, 2022 11:37 AM Author: Titillating bat shit crazy immigrant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45261489) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:39 PM Author: Lascivious Piazza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266462) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 12:45 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266264) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 12:46 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor just do invade, kill tens of thousands of people, then hold a vote while you occupy the territory
how fucking dumb are you Russiacucks? |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:27 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater I really don't care, do you? Like I have no gut instinct who should govern random states on that side of the world. The history of Russia and Ukraine goes back centuries. It seems like the people in those particular territories may well democratically vote to join Russia. I'll certainly concede that 99-1 or whatever results they just announced don't exactly sound democratic, but it's not like Ukraine would've let them hold a referendum on the topic pre-war, so the academic question is still there
edit: I've also heard that Soviet Russia had a practice of sending ethnic Russians into numerous Soviet satellites in an attempt to dilute/replace the local populations with Russians. If that's true, it makes me much less sympathetic to Russia, and more to local non-Russian people who have voted for self-governance. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:31 PM Author: Appetizing Up-to-no-good Sweet Tailpipe Corn Cake Oh he cares a lot. Trust me. Not enough to put his life on the line but he really cares bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266432) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:31 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor we’ll do you support the idea of nation states at all?
jfc, there are movements and mechanisms that can bring about changes if they are broadly desired. but to support military action in place of those mechanisms is backwards and a recipe for chaos right at the doorstep of the western world |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:35 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater oh i just edited and you beat me to reply. so what are those mechanisms -- it's not like ukraine would have allowed a pre-war referendum on hey do these states want to join russia or self-govern -- is that the sort of mechanism you are thinking of? and what do you mean "doorstep of western world" -- like how is this relevant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266449) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:37 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor social movements, seeking autonomy within Ukraine, etc
it’s hard work but again if there is support then it’s a chance to do all of this without a massive war
and it’s not just Ukraine - no halfway decent country just “lets” people vote themselves out |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:38 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater thank you. that's all totally fair; i understand. as for the last bit, i hear you, but it's also the cause of numerous civil wars over human history (edit: like if you have a minority group that isn't happy being a part of the nation it's currently a part of) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266457) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 2:57 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor people objectively have far more rights under Ukraine than under Putin’s Russia
the shit about Russian speaker oppression is nonsense propaganda |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:33 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater i'll concede both of those, sure. but at the same time, people can democratically vote for "fewer" rights, as far as stricter drug laws, less permissible immigration, a narrower range of sexual and gender based expression, making the laws align closer to some religion, etc. Anyway that's why I led with "what would the people in donetsk and luhansk vote for." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267149) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 5:48 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor no, you really don’t have the right take away rights of other people.. if they wanted to live in a strictly Russian speaking dictatorship they could move to Belarus (Russia is far from a Russian only country) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267529) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 6:57 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater so you're conceding the point that even if majority of the residents of donetsk and luhansk voted to join russia, you'd prefer an antidemocratic solution in those cases and say they can't leave ukraine? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267872) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:20 PM Author: zombie-like crackhouse reading party >to support military action in place of those mechanisms is backwards
Spoken like a true progressive.
>do you support the idea of nation states at all?
Lol this is pure cope. Nation states are built on military might. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:41 PM Author: Lascivious Piazza You just described the orange revolution circa 2014. Western ukraine was literally bombing donetsk amd lugansk during that "free and democratic election" while the west cheered them on. Shocking those regions want to join russia now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266464) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 12:48 PM Author: Shimmering mildly autistic trump supporter 99% or whatever proves it was a sham. I don’t know why Russia would expect anyone to believe that (maybe because they don’t have much experience with legitimate elections). They should have said it was 65/35 to at least make it believable
Also if you survey the state of North Dakota they would probably vote to join Russia but that doesn’t mean the USA has to let them |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:29 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater totally agree with first paragraph. second paragraph is really interesting to me. the history of modern ukraine, what is it, 30 years? i guess the question of whether a local area is allowed to secede has been the cause of numerous civil wars ... so maybe that's just a question that USA with your north dakota example has to answer for itself as a country, Ukraine, etc. But I'm sure there are some examples where the local state wins and does get to secede or self-govern or whatever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266427) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:30 PM Author: floppy hall Probably true in the DNR/LNR and Crimea but nowhere else (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266428) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:36 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater ty. if it's true in those regions, do you think that weighs towards those areas becoming part of russia, or does some other overarching argument push you the opposite way? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266452) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:45 PM Author: Shimmering mildly autistic trump supporter No because Russia isn’t going to stop with those regions just as they didn’t stop with Crimea. This is a quintessential case where you stand up to a bully. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266496) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:51 PM Author: Lascivious Piazza Just like the west didnt stop with the fall of the soviet union and continued to push anti russian sentiments on countries at Russia's border? That argument works for all parties. Ukraine is a pawn in all this. If you think the west is "helping them stand up to a bully" you are delusional and naive. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266527) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 1:53 PM Author: Shimmering mildly autistic trump supporter “But they’re not playing fair!” argued the Russiacuck
Sometimes you need to press your advantage when you’re fighting against evil |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:16 PM Author: Lascivious Piazza Right. Glad you understand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266844) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:20 PM Author: Narrow-minded bossy lettuce dingle berry the anti-russian sentiment is there because the vast majority of the eastern euro population did not like being under the boot of russia during the cold war. When given the chance by vote, they almost always chosen west-aligned governments. Russia just doesn't have much to offer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266856) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:39 PM Author: floppy hall Vatniks literally can't comprehend that NATO and the Warsaw Pact weren't /aren't the same at all. They assume that if the Soviet Union was centered around a bullying hegemonic Russia surrounded by its gimp slaves, surely NATO operated the same way. They don't understand the concept of "allies" joined together for mutual interest, only dominance and submission. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267181) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:35 PM Author: floppy hall The US didn't "push anti-Russian sentiments" on countries that border them, the countries that border them just fucking hate them and alawys have. Russia has been an imperialistic dick power that bullies its neighbors for centuries. Which hey, is exactly what they're doing to Ukraine.
This war is morally black and white, there isn't a gray area. Russia is an evil, bullying aggressor and NATO are trying to help a bordering European nation defend itself from unjust aggression. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:22 PM Author: Narrow-minded bossy lettuce dingle berry There was pretty comprehensive polling earlier in the year before the war that showed within the borders of the republics there was a plurality that wanted to join russia, but those areas outside those borders but within the luhansk and donetsk provinces most wanted to remain in ukr. It's been linked here before. There's also a lot of "voting with your feet" that's occurred since 2014. So basically those little republics and Crimea have the bulk of the pro-russia population in ukr and on the whole it's a completely fringe position among the total ukr population. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266862) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:26 PM Author: curious brass newt home This is obvious to anyone who has any connection to modern day Ukraine. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266877) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:29 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor and many of those who were leaning towards Russia are probably dead or ran to Ukraine after those mongrels invaded
even Mandy’s family fled to the west once the mongrels invaded |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:37 PM Author: curious brass newt home There's never been more Russian spoken on the streets of Lviv. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266904) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 3:46 PM Author: Opaque hyperventilating parlor and never more Ukrainian in Kiev and elsewhere (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45266922) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:05 PM Author: curious brass newt home (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267004) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:28 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater ty. so should russia get possession of the little republics and crimea? presumably ukraine doesn't want to give them up, right? and ty for your note on anti-russian sentiment--that makes sense too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267118) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:44 PM Author: floppy hall I've said it before but I think recognition of the DNR/LNR/Crimea as part of Russia is completely fair and honestly probably ideal for the Ukraine. They're bombed out shitholes and would be full of Russian fifth columnists if they were annexed. Not worth it. And militarily I think Crimea is probably out of reach - very risky gamble to even try.
IMO that's the way out of this war. No restrictions on UA ambitions to join the EU, a soft commitment (but nothing formal) to not join NATO, LNR/DNR/Crimea (pre-war borders) recognized as Russian, everything else is Ukrainian. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 7:00 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater ty -- as i've demonstrated itt, i have a lot to learn, and won't pretend to be an expert here. appreciate hearing your take. and this makes sense to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267883) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 4:54 PM Author: Narrow-minded bossy lettuce dingle berry No. That went out the window the second Russia invaded. As noted by TDNW above, there is a diplomatic and international process by which that may have been achieved. Anyway, Pro Russian sentiment has been in terminal decline in UKR anyway for the past 2-3 decades. In another generation even these tiny populations won’t want it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267259) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 7:01 PM Author: citrine ungodly space volcanic crater ty, i understand this view too (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267887) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2022 5:50 PM Author: comical painfully honest hairy legs Voting machines can’t be hacked, I was told. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5203322&forum_id=2#45267537) |