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Cali Biglaw $145k Raise Vigil Thread
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:40 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess So when you're a second-year associate out on the West Coast, how is it going to feel working with a first-year in your firm's NY office and knowing he makes more than you in salary, *and* more in bonus?
This is a thread to post random things (from Greedy and elsewhere) possibly relevant to LA/SF/SV moving to $145k.
Current situation: Most Cali firms have raised first years by $10k, second years by $5k or $10k, and other years by $5k. K&E, LW and GDC are the only non-NY firms to announce a $10k raise across the board. All of these firms have have followed NY market in matching the $20k raise for their NY offices. Quinn is the only non-NY firm to match NY market in all its offices.
For comparison: CA: 135 / 145 / 155 / 170 / 190 NY: 145 / 155 / 170 / 190 / 210
List of LA offices and their current salary levels: Biglaw salary increases |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:22 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin What did Irell, Munger, and Quinn do? Was it 10k for all classes, or 10 then 5? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059588) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:40 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess I'm really not clear. Irell has always had a slightly higher payscale so going to $135k was only a $5k raise. It could be that they only raised first-years, and all the other firms are raising by $5k just to meet Irell's existing structure. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059822) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:46 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin True, I guess. Quinn had been at 130 also. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059877) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:48 PM Author: Gold National welcome to the way the world worked before 125k became standard across the nation. historically, associates have been paid more in NY. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059896) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:51 PM Author: arousing wild indirect expression ratface Seriously. Why does everyone assume that all the big markets have to match NY? NY firms are more profitable and the cost of living is higher; it's natural that they'd pay more. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059924) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:52 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin You started strong, but then faltered. The NYC offices are not necessarily more profitable. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059929) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:58 PM Author: Gold National i always look at "pay" as a function of the ability to staff (defined as being able to hire qualified inputs). i'm not sure what peripheral reasons to raise salary would be sufficient to compel me to do so, were i running a firm.
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Date: February 11th, 2006 7:02 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Looking at it in terms of supply/demand is perfectly valid. That's why Greedy LA has been talking about lateral openings at the branch offices of NY firms -- hopefully just the noise will be enough. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5060006) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:55 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess 125k became standard when tech picked up and people realized there were markets outside NY that were pretty important. It seems billing rates don't differ in LA and NY that much anymore, and while the PPP of LA firms doesn't exactly match Cravath and S&C, they're still doing better than the likes of Dewey, Fried Frank, and Shearman.
Also like I mentioned below, bonuses at NY firms have been higher anyway and I think people had less of a problem with that. |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 8:08 PM Author: Blue institution I won't feel that bad since they will be working a lot harder than I am and they will have to live in NYC and will pay 2500 for a 500 square foot studio. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5107311) |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 10:50 AM Author: Slate Jet-lagged Lodge Sandwich Exactly. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5181234) |
Date: February 11th, 2006 5:46 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Might as well start with this very spirited message cross-posted on Greedy LA and themonkeyscribe:
Los Angeles Firms MUST Match NYC, or Mass Exodus Will Ensue
Mass Exodus, or Mass Malaise...I'm not sure.
Let's Recap:
(1) There have been no raises since 1999.
(2) A $10K raise for 1st years and $5K for subsequent years does not even match the rate of inflation on $125,000 over 7 years.
(3) Profits Per Partner (PPP) has risen steadily in all major L.A. firms since 1999, and rather dramatically in the last year alone: Quinn - $1.9m (+1% over 2004); Gibson - $1.64m (+8%); Latham - $1.602m (+14%); Munger - ~$1.08m (+4%); Loeb - $926k (+30%); Sheppard - $785k (+15%); Allen Matkins - $675k (+16%).
(4) Housing prices have doubled (if not TRIPLED) in Los Angeles since 1999.
(5) Law school tuitions have rose by an average of 28% nationwide, with some state schools (like Berkeley, UCLA and UC-Hastings) having seen their tuition fees DOUBLE since 1999.
(6) The Southern California housing market is almost as cramped and expensive as the NYC market, and the market prices in San Fran market are almost identical in the prices to NYC.
(7) With this new NYC raise ($145,000) in place, *FIRST* year associates in the L.A. offices of NY-based firms earn $5,000 more than *SECOND* year associates at Latham, Gibson Dunn, Irell, Quinn Emmanuel and O'Melveny.
(Cool Second year associates in Los Angeles offices will now earn $25,000 LESS than second year associates in NYC offices. $25,000 Less!!! Sure, NYC attorneys are known to work long hours, but if they didn't stroll in the office at 10AM everyday and take 2-hour lunches, they'd leave the office at a more reasonable hour like the rest of us (more efficient) lawyers who bill 2000 hours/year and still have a life outside of work.
(9) Almost all big NYC firms or branch offices ALREADY GET A COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENT OF $10k-$15K, AND FOR YEARS HAVE HAD HIGHER BONUSES THAT IN OTHER MARKETS TO ACCOUNT FOR HOW EXPENSIVE NYC IS!!! GIVING THEM ANOTHER $20k/YEAR TO ALL CLASSES JUST ADDS INSULT TO INJURY TO ALL THE HARDWORKING ASSOCIATES IN MAJOR MARKETS LIKE L.A., CHICAGO AND WASHINGTON, DC WHO ARE NOT COMPENSATED WITH SUCH MONETARY PERKS AS "COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENTS". It used to be the case that NYC lawyers were paid more because firms in NYC required more work, but plenty of firms in 2006 are billing 2000+ hours/year and are NOT located in NYC. These lawyers should not be penalized because they chose to work in a different market.
Last (and least), associates in LA face just as great of a risk of a terrorist attack as their counterparts in NY: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/09/bush.terror/index.html. It's called "hazard pay" people...we should be compensated for that risk!
THE LOS ANGELES FIRMS MUST GIVE EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK...OR THEY WILL FIND IT DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO LURE TOP RECRUITS IN THE NEAR FUTURE, THEY WILL FACE MASSIVE RETENTION PROBLEMS, AND THEY WILL SEE THEIR ASSOCIATE SATISFACTION RANKINGS CRASH DRAMATICALLY. LOS ANGELES LAWYERS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DEMAND THESE RAISES FROM THEIR EMPLOYERS EITHER...THE PARTNERS SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
http://themonkeyscribe.com/msgboards/viewtopic.php?t=170 |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:47 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess I already said a few things here: LA firms increase PPP in 2005; Gibson, Latham at $1.6m (not interesting enough to copy in its entirety) (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059154) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:50 PM Author: Concupiscible half-breed shrine in your other posts you have mentioned that S&C and Simpson have moved to 145 in LA, do you have any confirmation? memo or otherwise? it seems to me that the justification that they traditionally have paid the same in every office does not hold muster anymore |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:59 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Sullivan: http://www.legalweek.com/ViewItem.asp?id=27519 ("The rises affect associates across the firm’s offices as pay does not vary within the network.")
Weil memo (note offices): http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wsR
Milbank: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wmV
Simpson: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wZO and http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wd8 (memo to "all associates") |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:02 PM Author: Concupiscible half-breed shrine cool - i just hadn't seen much on Greedy LA - i guess they are more concerened with their own big offices there (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059288) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:04 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, but you'll notice on Greedy LA everybody's taken it for granted that the NY branches are paying more: Cali associates: Headhunters ready to move you to NY firms (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059331) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:18 PM Author: Concupiscible half-breed shrine you think the firms like LW, will go back and bump to 145 in LA?
edited LA to be LW |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:21 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin Nooooo. Latham, GDC and OMM were just matching the LA rates of Irell, Quinn and Munger. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059579) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 6:32 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess See my link above (after the really long rant from Greedy). There might be more pressure from NY firms in SV than LA, but I'm not sure. I think a lot will depend on what senior associates think since that gap gets pretty big, although new associates should think about it too -- that difference adds up even if you only plan to be in biglaw for 3-4 years. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059721) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:49 PM Author: adventurous generalized bond hell and once LA firms get bumped up to 145, NY associates will complain and want to raise their salary to 150+ (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059174) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:50 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess They usually get a higher bonus anyway. Most people don't seem to have a problem with that. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059183) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:52 PM Author: Concupiscible half-breed shrine do you have any confirmation for my question above? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059197) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:54 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yes, I'll post it above, give me a sec. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5059219) |
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Date: February 11th, 2006 5:51 PM Author: Concupiscible half-breed shrine actually NY assoc would have no reason to complain, it would just guarantee that the current structure stays the same - with LA and other offices getting crap bonuses and NYC getting at least 10-20 more in bonuses
it is good for NYC assoc for the rest of the country to go to 145 so as to ensure the bonuses do not fall and total actual compensation increases |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 4:47 PM Author: bearded alcoholic boiling water "GIVING THEM ANOTHER $20k/YEAR TO ALL CLASSES JUST ADDS INSULT TO INJURY TO ALL THE HARDWORKING ASSOCIATES IN MAJOR MARKETS LIKE L.A., CHICAGO AND WASHINGTON, DC WHO ARE NOT COMPENSATED WITH SUCH MONETARY PERKS AS 'COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENTS'."
What genius wrote this? Assuming this is a biglaw asso., does this person not understand that the term "adjustment" means that pay could be moved up OR DOWN?
I hope this person gets his or her "perk." |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 5:34 PM Author: naked regret garrison I understood the "quotation marks" in his post to mean that NYC's extra compensation is *disguised* as a "cost-of-living adjustment".
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:23 PM Author: stimulating overrated gas station have some xanax available? seriously (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5068411) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 3:27 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "Some have said that law students have more incentive to go to NY based firms in SF/SV, but I actually think laterals do.
If you are a third year at GDC, with your new base pay of $155k, maybe you'll end up with a total comp of say 185k, but only if you are a star.
If you lateral to STB/S&C/anyone else who matched the 20k across the board raise, you'd have a base pay of $170k, and while we don't know what the bonuses are going to be for them, I bet it will certainly be more than $15k for third years.
And don't forget that bonus is lockstep at these places, so you don't have to be the superstar to get it."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wuk |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 3:40 PM Author: tripping impressive rehab dysfunction I'm thinking CA firms may boost their NYC branch offices, but will hold the $135K line at home. (With maybe a few tweaks for seniors.) (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5066482) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 5:41 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Latham and Kirkland have already done this, and MoFo and Paul Hastings will probably be the next to follow since they held off on NY raises. But I started this thread hoping things will change and they'll all go to $145k. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5067647) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 5:44 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home That would be so awesome, but I doubt it will happen. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5067673) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:01 PM Author: Crystalline Set That doesn't make sense if NY offices are boosting their branch offices (including California offices) to 145k (as some of them have). A firm currently making market and presumably committed to paying market isn't going to suddenly pay below it. That would sacrifice a significant amount of recruiting power. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5068291) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:05 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home What NY firms are paying 145 in CA? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5068308) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:07 PM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Cali Biglaw $145k Raise Vigil Thread
You'll notice that the link directs you to a post in this same thread. |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:16 PM Author: Crystalline Set Several firms. Look at monkeyscribe, other threads on here, infirmation, etc.
Logically, if some of these firms are paying 145k, all firms that want to recruit the best students by paying market wage will soon raise to 145k. All this worrying is a bit ridiculous. It just might take more than a couple weeks. |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:28 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess I have an LA post on the biglaw salary sticky: Biglaw salary increases
Might as well add this link to the OP. |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 5:52 PM Author: fiercely-loyal heaven Does anyone have an idea which LA firms will raise their summer pay? Up to 2600? 2800? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5067734) |
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Date: February 12th, 2006 7:32 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Biglaw salary increases (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5068477) |
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Date: February 13th, 2006 12:08 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess According to Greedy NY, Orrick and Heller have not only gone along with the $135k raises, they haven't even matched Latham and Kirkland in at least raising NY offices to $145k. http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wxS
This vigil may take a lot longer than I was hoping for. |
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Date: February 13th, 2006 12:09 PM Author: French Heady Messiness Whorehouse Those NY offices will get pwn3d. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5074156) |
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Date: February 13th, 2006 1:44 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Co-chair of Latham's Silicon Valley lit dept just moved to Davis Polk.
Those NY firms have been on a roll lately in SV.* Guess it wasn't enough when Wilson Sonsini started losing clients -- maybe the Cali firms will wake up when they start losing associates and partners too?
* Not Dewey. |
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Date: February 14th, 2006 11:05 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "A quick survey of salaries in NY, Chicago, Boston, DC and LA/SF shows that LA/SF market salaries are generally $5k - $30 below the other major markets:
Year:___NY____Bos/Chi/DC__LA/SF_ 2005:_145,000___135,000___135,000 2004:_155,000___145,000___140,000 2003:_170,000___160,000___155,000 2002:_190,000___180,000___170,000 2001:_210,000___200,000___190,000 2000:_225,000___215,000___200,000 1999:_240,000___230,000___210,000 1998:_255,000___245,000___215,000
When are the California firms going to step up?"
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x1j |
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Date: February 14th, 2006 11:12 AM Author: Pontificating Mad-dog Skullcap Fortuitous Meteor At bare minimum the raise should be 10/10. 10/5 is just an insult. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5083856) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:39 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, it seems most of the NorCal firms actually did go to 10/10. It's too hard to dig through the Greedy boards and get the specifics on which firm raised what, though. And you're still left with third-years and higher getting only $5k raises. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5090902) |
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Date: February 14th, 2006 11:15 AM Author: tripping impressive rehab dysfunction "When are the California firms going to step up?"
They already raised salaries. What more do people want? ;) |
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Date: February 14th, 2006 6:08 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess O'Melveny matches Latham in raising to $145k for just the NY office, according to Greedy NY: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x46 (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5087493) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:41 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Things aren't looking good for CA. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5090916) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:51 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, outlook not so good. As 2Ls, the good news is that it just might take one year/recruiting season to make the $145k raise happen. But it still strikes me as absurd that our NY classmates will be getting the benefit of an extra $200/wk this summer -- well, assuming our firms even raise to the $2600 level. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091024) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:04 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat If only one of our firms goes to 2600, the beneficiary buys the other a couple of rounds of drinks during the summer. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091154) |
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Date: May 8th, 2006 10:57 AM Author: Comical karate Subject: omelveny - projects (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5741292) |
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Date: May 8th, 2006 10:58 AM Author: Comical karate Subject: omelveny - projects Strange but Omelveny lists a project on its web site of $115.00 for current firm news. Isnt this peculiar? If it is wrong, which it clearly is, why doesnt the firm correct it? |
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Date: May 8th, 2006 11:11 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess If you click the link it turns out it's a $115 *million* financing. I'm sure if you email them, they'll fix it. ;) (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5741381) |
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Date: May 8th, 2006 12:16 PM Author: Comical karate Subject: 115.00 project I know that the link states that the project was 115 million. However, you might think that the firm would not like the banner to read the way it does. In addition, I believe that the error was brought to their attention last week and has not been corrected (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5741678) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:40 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "When are the California firms going to step up?"
"Honestly, they will step up only when the 2006 recruiting season has people turning down their offers for WSGR/GDC/etc for DPW, S&C, and STB's SV offices (for example, just to consider the SF/SV market).
Last season, I know from my contact at STB-PA, was horrible and this year's summer class is small. These 2L's were choosing the CA-based firms over the top NYC firms' SF/SV offices.
With the pay difference, there will be a good incentive to go to STB/DPW/S&C. If the 2L's still avoid those firms, then the CA-based firms will have no reason to match."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x35 |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:42 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "the salary gap between the NY firms and CA offices of other major firms is significant. I expect some associates will opt to join the California office of a NY firm to get the weather and the much better salary. If you do not see yourself staying at a big firm in the long run, this has a lot of appeal. However, per the earlier post on this board, the chances of making partner out of the California office of some NY firms is nil--no matter how good you think you are. To the extent you think you have the stuff (and desire) to make partner, you might consider accepting the the lower salary in the short run. You will more than make it up if you actually make partner. Another wrinkle in the salary debate is whether the latest NY raises will end up being a complete wash come bonus time. At least a couple memos I've seen indicate that this is not a "raise" but a shift in the distribution of total compensation from year-end bonus to salary. In that case, the comp gap has not changed, but is just much more visible." http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x2v
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Date: May 10th, 2006 2:43 PM Author: arrogant idiotic codepig aren't bonuses taxed at something like 50%? Going from 50% tax to 35% (or whatever it is now) does seem like a change in compensation. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5758178) |
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Date: May 10th, 2006 2:45 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Bonuses are taxed the same as ordinary income, although they might get withheld differently (i.e. might have to wait till you file your taxes to get some of it back). (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5758190) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:58 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess LeBoeuf raises to $145k, including their LA and SF offices: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x5D
But with 12 lawyers in LA and 17 in SF, we might want to keep expectations low. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:59 AM Author: Claret jap Plus, that poster on greedy might be mistaken. Otherwise I faxing my resume to Leboeuf. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091101) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:02 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef LeboeufPWN3D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091134) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:06 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat I think that if the 145K in CA is true for LeBouf, LEBOUFPWN3D should be the universal xoxo term for one firm paying more than another. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091172) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:25 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Apparently the guy on greedyassociates sticks by his post. Seems like a weird thing to make up out of the clear blue. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091323) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:33 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Well, then I/Q/M, GDC, Latham, OMM, MoFo and Paul Hastings, among others, have all been LeBOEUFPWN3D! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091409) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:35 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Hahah. Major LeBOEUFPWNAGE!!! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091423) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:00 AM Author: Rusted Domesticated Haunted Graveyard i believe Weil bumped their Silicon Valley office to $145k (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091115) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:07 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Greedy NY has Proskauer raising to $145k, but that memo is specifically addressed to NY associates: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x5f I think Proskauer LA has a pretty substantial presence and probably competes with the likes of Irell and OMM. Not a good sign if they aren't announcing the raise with NY. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin Proskauer competes with Irell and OMM?!?! For what? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091212) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Shhhh! This is a vigil. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091217) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:13 AM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin LOL. You're right. Sorry. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091227) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:14 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef haha (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091234) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:17 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Heh, I actually didn't know where it stood. I just figured, entertainment practice, Century City office... eh, all the same to me. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091252) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:19 AM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin I don't even think they give the bar stipend. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091271) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:21 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Well, neither do the other NY firms, at least as far as I know. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091284) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:24 AM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin Fair enough, you may be right. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091316) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:27 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat They're not a big deal at all. They're about 60 lawyers and it's Proskauer, with their ridiculous "offer to join a specific practice group only, perhaps not the one of your choice" deal. I'll never understand why someone would ever summer there unless they're splitting. Chances of needing to reinterview are way too high.
The people I had my screening interview with were really nice (guy and girl, two person interview). Had both recently come from Skadden LA. If I remember right, it was my first interview during OCI. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Certainly not for the hearts of minds of law students in LA. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091218) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat I'm still looking to Quinn to see whether they raise just for NY or across the board. It may be our only hope. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5091215) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 4:34 AM Author: Know-it-all vigorous wrinkle Quinn, Irell, Munger really should be going to 150. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5092023) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 4:33 AM Author: Know-it-all vigorous wrinkle Morgan Lewis is now at 135k in Philly. So now Philly = SF/SV/LA!?
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1139837720736 |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:14 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "This could all go haywire if 145 becomes the new 135 in DC. Think about it--the NY firms are going to 145 in all offices. They have a much bigger presence in DC than they do in LA. Thus, NY firms raising to 145 in DC is much more likely to move the DC market up to 145 than the fact that 20-lawyer offices in LA like STB and S&C are going up to 145 is likely to move the LA market to 145. I'm not sure if that made sense, but you know what I mean. Considering LA has a considerably higher COL than DC (I think), that situation could enrage LA GAs..."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x60 |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 12:58 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Greedy LA says Proskauer LA matches Kirkland with a $10k raise for all classes: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x89 News on Skadden seems to be filtering out now. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:26 PM Author: Blue institution it is true that all the other class years are getting screwed, but Cali first years get a 10k bar bonus, which NYC first years don't get, so for first years it is a wash (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5093960) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:28 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess I always thought that was made up by the lack of the pro-rated bonus for the stub year, although you said before that many Cali firms actually do give that bonus, so I'm still confused on this point. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5093978) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:30 PM Author: Blue institution most Cali firms give both. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5093998) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:29 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin Except that most of the LA firms don't give the prorated bonus at the end of the first sevreal months, while most of the NYC firms do. So it's not a wash. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:29 PM Author: Blue institution no, most firms give that also. Latham is the only one that doesn't (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5093989) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:31 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin That's just not true, dude. I asked several young associates about this during callbacks. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5094005) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:34 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess What are the other firms that you know of that don't pay the prorated bonus? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5094035) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:36 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin I'm almost positive about Latham, PH, Sheppard Mullin, and Kirkland. And though I don't know for sure, I would be shocked if firms like Heller and McDermott would give both the stipend and a bonus. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5094070) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 3:53 PM Author: submissive topaz hissy fit Yeah, I don't think bobby knows what he's talking about. Gibson gave a stub this year and it was a big surprise because LA firms generally don't. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5095479) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 1:36 PM Author: Blue institution agree to disagree. All the major firms in LA that I know of besides Latham give it (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5094060) |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 3:14 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess GDC announces summer salary of $2404 for all summers, including NY: Gibson to Summer Associates: "Fuck You" Bad news for everyone. |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 3:39 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef LeBoeuf Lamb raise to 145k for NY/LA/SF/DC now official: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060215005930&newsLang=en
Where do I send my resume? |
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Date: February 15th, 2006 9:17 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Greedy NY reporting that Dewey is raising all offices by $20k: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x9C
Too bad their California offices aren't really in a position to take new associates: Anyone know why Dewey Ballantine Palo Alto impoded? |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 12:58 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "This could all go haywire if 145 becomes the new 135 in DC. Think about it--the NY firms are going to 145 in all offices. They have a much bigger presence in DC than they do in LA. Thus, NY firms raising to 145 in DC is much more likely to move the DC market up to 145 than the fact that 20-lawyer offices in LA like STB and S&C are going up to 145 is likely to move the LA market to 145. I'm not sure if that made sense, but you know what I mean. Considering LA has a considerably higher COL than DC (I think), that situation could enrage LA GAs..."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x60 |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 12:59 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home I want it now! *Kicks* *throws tantrum* (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103370) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:07 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin I said this in another thread, but Proskauer LA sent emails to their summers that the office was raising to $135, and that summer salaries would be raised accordingily (presumably to $2600). (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103402) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:10 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Good catch, I had updated the salary raise thread but forgot to add it here.
I love all my threads, but once in a while one slips through the cracks. |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:12 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home Oh useful, more LA firms need to do this. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103422) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:13 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Actually, I'm more disappointed that Proskauer didn't raise $20k across all their offices like the other NY firms. But that might be just proof that they really are as TTT as suggested above. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103427) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:14 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home Yeah good point. You should IM me sometime btw, I have a question for you. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103432) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 1:15 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess You can send an email to the address on the summer class thread. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5103437) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 7:19 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Greedy LA confirms Skadden LA/SF/SV is on the same $145k salary schedule as NY: http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xCZ
These are pretty substantial offices. Might see some movement, here's hoping anyway... |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 7:34 PM Author: submissive topaz hissy fit That's only a $5K bump for Skadden, though. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5107036) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 7:50 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess True. But even at $140k, they've only paid summers $2400/wk, so it'll be interesting to see if they raise to $2800 now.
In terms of recruiting, I think Skadden LA is pretty on par with GDC/OMM/LW in a way that STB and S&C aren't, so this could be a big deal. If Skadden goes to $2800, that's going to be smack in the face for those Gibson summers who turned down Skadden offers. |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 11:24 AM Author: fiercely-loyal heaven I think Skadden LA is a very good office that is on par with the big three.
Their corporate department is already as strong as anyone's. And their ligitation department is on the rise. |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 7:59 PM Author: Exciting senate this is gonna be a long-ass vigil. the market will remain unsettled until the end of the year when bonuses are announced and we'll see if 145K base actually means higher overall compensation. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5107236) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 8:05 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, I was thinking I still have another year until I graduate, and maybe that's how long it'll take. But just in case, I'm trying to space out my posts so I can bump this semi-regularly.
It'd be funny if there was some hiring partner at Latham or MoFo watching this thread and seeing if he could outlast me, but I think I'm giving myself way too much credit there. |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 8:08 PM Author: Exciting senate outlast you? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5107312) |
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Date: February 16th, 2006 8:12 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess As in holding off on raises and hoping I get bored of bumping this thread. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5107337) |
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Date: February 17th, 2006 11:46 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Pillsbury and Thelen join the $135k raises: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1140084315494
Interesting given this Greedy post from a couple days ago:
"Pillsbury is in serious cost-cutting mode. It recently offered buyout packages to nonbilling professionals and has been reported in the local legal press as not having ruled out layoffs -- of either nonbilling or billing professionals. In that scenario, in what economic world is raising associates' salaries "the right thing"? That's like telling Ford or GM that the "right thing" to do in the face of economic challenges would be to raise employee salaries. Even if that sort of mismanagement did not rise to the level of a securities or corporate law violation, the stockholders would not tolerate it. Like it or not, in law firms, the partners are the stockholders."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002x5Y |
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Date: February 17th, 2006 2:32 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess MoFo becomes the latest non-NY firm to raise to $145k for its NY office only: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xG2 (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5113616) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 1:06 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Quinn raises to $145k for all offices: quinn all offices - 145K
Now the real vigil can begin! |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 11:03 AM Author: Exciting senate given that they started the 135K wave, this is major news, if true. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5121308) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 1:38 AM Author: Irate clown depressive I wonder if we will see two tiers of pay in LA. My guess is that we will. The days of all biglaw firms (minus Skadden) paying the same first-year amount are over. Elite NY and LA firms will pay 145; the rest will pay 135. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5119833) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 12:25 PM Author: Crystalline Set I think the problem is that many, many firms consider themselves elite and have made a commitment to paying market. Assuming they can afford the jump, I don't think these firms will tolerate being classified in a lower tier and will make the jump. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5121703) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 12:26 PM Author: Exciting senate how is this a problem? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5121709) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 12:34 PM Author: Crystalline Set Oh, I meant the problem with the reasoning of the post I responded to. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5121747) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 5:55 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Yea. But for some firms it was like pulling teeth to raise 10k (many only raised 5k for 2nd years), so I dunno if they can stomach a raise to 145k--20k across the board. Should be interesting. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5124313) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 5:56 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess According to Greedy LA, Quinn only announced the $145k for first-years, so higher classes are still in the dark as to whether the raise really will be across the board. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5124336) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 5:59 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Interesting. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5124371) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 6:16 PM Author: Exciting senate clearly, second years should make more than first years - so at least 150K. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5124450) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 6:18 PM Author: obsidian rigpig faggot firefighter definitely (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5124461) |
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Date: February 18th, 2006 12:26 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home SO now I guess we wait to see who is elite. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5121708) |
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Date: February 21st, 2006 10:04 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Holiday's over, let's hope news of Quinn's raise starts spreading. Here's one reaction to MoFo's NY-only $145k raise:
"Here's the fundamental problem, as I see it. MoFo is trying to become more like a NY-based firm, without having to pony up the NY compensation. Examples: last year's raising of the minimum billable hour requirements, the abandonment of the "MoFo" logo on merchandise because the NY partners though it sounded too Californian, and firm chairman Keith Wetmore's move from SF to the NY office. Historically (i.e., pre-2000 ["Viva Bob Gunderson!!"]), MoFo associates have tolerated the existence of differential pay in different offices, with NY being paid a bit more. But the new salary and bonus structure in NY is so far and away higher than any other office, that it is making MoFo associates in other offices angry. The firm has never, to my knowledge, allowed one office's associates to be paid so much higher than everybody else. MoFo markets itself as "one firm," where deals and cases can be reliably staffed across offices. When more junior associates in NY are making substantially more money than their more senior counterparts in other offices -- including their supervising senior associates -- that is a sure a recipe for discontent and sinking morale, especially given the big increases in partnership profits and firm revenue. Those profits and that revenue are largely billed on the backs of the mid and senior-level associates. Sure, the chosen few might make partner some day, but that is cold comfort given the statistical odds against it."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xLs |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 1:21 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Quinn's raise finally hits the legal news media: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1140775518275
"Law firm consultant Edward Poll said it's too soon to tell whether other Los Angeles-based firms will follow suit.
"It's an interesting game that is being played," he said. "I think it could go either way, but my guess is that big players like Gibson, [Dunn & Crutcher], O'Melveny [& Myers], and Latham [& Watkins] will draw a line in the sand and say, 'We're not going any farther.'" |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 5:28 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef Thanks for the link Hazelrah--you are on top of it. I also tend to doubt that the big LA firms will raise to 145k to match Quinn, but we shall see. All it might take is one more firm raising to 145k to get the dominos falling again. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5181041) |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 11:07 AM Author: Exciting senate oh ye of little faith. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5181316) |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 11:43 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat So I guess this settles the question of whether Quinn's raises were just for NYC. I would think that Irell would be the first to match, if anyone is going to, since they were the leaders last time, and Irell and Quinn have a lot of cross-offers. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5181493) |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 12:58 PM Author: soul-stirring apoplectic dingle berry Paul Hastings certainly doesn't come off well.
"I think Quinn is a very different kind of firm than a large global firm. . . . One firm's decision, particularly one with a specialized practice niche, is not terribly relevant."
Translation: "We're cheap. Quinn isn't." |
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Date: February 26th, 2006 3:34 AM Author: Greedy stock car Wouldn't the statement "quinn is a very different kind of firm than a large global firm" suggest to you that Quinn should pay far less??? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5189638) |
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Date: February 25th, 2006 1:14 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess It'll be interesting if Quinn wants to set itself off from the other firms, like Wachtell does in NY. They've had the highest PPP in LA (maybe all of non-NY, really) for two years now but haven't quite gotten the reputation to match. A salary premium could really be Quinn's way of getting the prestige that everybody knows they want.
If you look at the PPP numbers (LA firms increase PPP in 2005; Gibson, Latham at $1.6m) you'll see Quinn at $1.9m, and Munger at not even $1.1m. Irell hasn't reported but if it's like last year, it's somewhere in between at $1.6m. Certainly there's room for Quinn to pay a premium over Munger, if not the others. |
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Date: February 26th, 2006 3:35 AM Author: Greedy stock car If any firm in the country is going to go tit for tat with the likes of Wachtell, it will be Munger, not Quinn. Quinn doesn't have the same kind of intellectual firepower that Munger has. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5189642) |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 10:32 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess It doesn't have anything to do with intellect. It has to do with whether a firm has the desire/need to boost its prestige, and whether that firm has the profits to justify a higher payscale. Quinn has both. Munger has neither. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5199136) |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 1:55 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat A new week, a new reason to hope . . . (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5197574) |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 2:05 PM Author: multi-colored pearl degenerate These raises must come at some cost right? Or am i just being a pessimist?
that extra 10k is either coming out of a bonus or it is being worked for through escalating min billable requirements. It's not like its an extra 10k for free. It all comes at a cost, correct?
It'll be very interesting to see what kind of bonuses are given out at the firms in LA paying 145 base, and to see, at the end of the day, how much the 10k raise really translates into in terms of total compensation |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 3:25 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef I dunno. Maybe it is a fairness thing; inflation has gone up over the last six years and salaries have not. Maybe the powers that be finally decided to relieve their guilt. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5200591) |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 11:02 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, billing rates have gone up, partners' profits have gone up, and cost of living has gone up. Associates wouldn't exactly be getting a raise "for free" -- they've been paying for it already all these years. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5204781) |
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Date: February 27th, 2006 11:03 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Greedy LA is saying Gibson has raised to $145k for their NY office only. http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xcL |
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Date: March 1st, 2006 4:13 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Nice post on Greedy LA:
"MESSAGE TO LATHAM, GDC and OMM: Through the years, each of your firms have made general promises to your associates to "pay competitive salaries", etc... Well it's time to start doing just that. There are now 276 associates in LA at 7 firms who are on significantly higher pay scales then yours - this is not being competitive. While this strategy may fatten your partner's wallets in the short term, it is self-destructive in the long term: it is hurting associate morale (which results in lower billing and attrition), the perceived prestige of your firms, and come August, it will most certainly hurt recruiting. How can you claim to be a Top Tier firm and pay your associates 2nd Tier salaries? Unfortunately, it is only a matter of time before this practice works a self-fulfilling prophecy and you do indeed become 2nd tier firms in LA.... Now that Skadden and Quinn have matched (both with sizable offices in LA), there is no compelling justification for not matching - clearly Skadden and Quinn have reviewed the "cost of living" data that you are clinging to, and have determined that it's either not that significant, or NY associates can receive a market adjustment come bonus time (as has been the practice for many years). While we are pleased that there has been an initial raise, it simply has not kept pace with inflation, the cost of living in LA, and now what the martket has determined is the going rate for a Big Law associates. We welcome you to reconsider your positions on salary." http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xib |
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Date: March 1st, 2006 4:45 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef QUINNSKADDENLEBOEUFMILIBANKSIMPSONSULLIVANDEWEYPWN3D!!!!!!! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5218619) |
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Date: March 1st, 2006 10:37 PM Author: provocative national security agency How come Munger and Irell aren't addressed in this letter? They're lagging too. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5221382) |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:07 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess This was on Greedy, so the poster was probably thinking of laterals. In that case, I assume it's because Munger and Irell have pretty specific hiring needs and limited openings, whereas the big firms are where most of the movement will be. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5225467) |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:06 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Always nice to see a nod to this board:
"CA branch offices of NY firms have become a much more attractive option since then (perhaps more so in SF/SV). If not corrected soon, I'd expect the huge disparity in pay ($15k+ for 2nd years - $40k+ for 8th years) will significantly impact law school recruiting. These boards seem to be pretty complacent, but law school boards are all over the cheapness of CA firms."
http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xkT |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:10 PM Author: naked regret garrison Looks like those "Open Memos" to L.A. Biglaw partners on GA are getting some press:
http://legalpad.wordpress.com/tag/authors/kellie-schmitt/ |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:15 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Nice. I think I alluded above that the headhunters are already taking advantage of this in their recruiting efforts, so the firms should definitely be listening.
"Salaries were also a hot topic at an alumni event for Ivy League schools held in Hollywood this week." -- I've never heard of these things. Will I be expected to schmooze with Cornell JDs? |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:16 PM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Good to see Quinn's raise get at least some press. I'm surprised it hasn't been written about more.
Overall, though, I think the outlook is rather poor. |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 12:36 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Actually, I think the outlook is getting better, maybe not in time for this summer but at least for by the time we graduate.
Incidentally, my firm hasn't yet announced summer salaries but they are imposing a hard 13-week limit on all summers. I think 13 weeks is pretty standard for summer programs, but I've been told the NY firms are pretty flexible about people staying longer. |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 3:34 PM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat I suppose you're right about the long term prospects getting better.
My firm hasn't announced summer salaries either, and I don't think there's a hard week limit (or at least it hasn't been announced yet). I think, though, that 13 weeks is plenty. I think if you're at CLS and are doing the 1 week professional responsibility course at the end of the summer and want to work from the Monday after finals to the Friday before Prof Resp starts you're looking at 15 weeks. While the money is good, I would not want to work wire to wire for the whole summer. 13 sounds like the max anyone should want to do. One week buffers are always nice to have, especially when working on the other side of the country. |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 3:45 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Based on what people say about summer programs, I'm going to be pretty disappointed if I'm working wire to wire for any part of the summer. But you'd know better than me. My non-firm 1L summer was definitely a cushy gig.
But yeah, at least now I get back in time to do 3L OCI with NY branch offices, if it comes to that. ;) |
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Date: March 2nd, 2006 3:51 PM Author: naked regret garrison 12 weeks is standard
most firms allow between 9-13, sometimes 14 for students from schools that have uncharacteristically long summer breaks |
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Date: March 6th, 2006 2:35 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess This guy isn't me, but he might as well be (well, maybe he got more offers than I did):
"Seems like most of you so-called "greedy" associates are pretty complacent with the lousy raises you just got... I can assure you that most of the students that I know who will be summering in your LA offices don't feel the same way. I for one turned down an offer at a NY based firm for an offer with one of the Big 3 - boy do I feel like duped. If salaries don't equalize by August, many of your best SA's (top of their class at the best law schools) will be turning down their full-time offers for better money at Skadden, Quinn, etc... I'm sure you'll have no problem filling our spots with bottom feeders who would take any big law job, but we know that's not who you're looking for. So be prepared for a huge recruiting problem next Fall..."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xuH |
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Date: March 6th, 2006 2:35 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess And the flip side...
"While I agree that paying NY associates differently than OC/L.A./San Fran is B.S., I disagree with your analysis. There are a lot more "top school" candidates than there are first year associate positions. Though in the coming years a great candidate will take the 145k over the 135k for the same work (e.g., first year work at big law is first year work at big law whether it is 145k or 135k a year), I do not think GDC...etc will be hurting for associates. In the end, the pool of kids looking for work is bigger than the pool of big law associate positions."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xuN |
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Date: March 6th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef In addition to paying 145k in their LA offices, don't NY-based firms also dish out bigger bonuses? I've been told that STB, LeBoeuf,Dewey, etc use the same bonus structure as their NY office. This all adds up to substantially more cash.
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:30 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yes, as do Skadden and S&C, and DPW and the others in the Bay Area. Proskauer is paying $135k in LA but I believe they've traditionally paid NY lockstep bonuses as well. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5270359) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 11:57 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess And on that topic...
"very seldom does someone stay at one firm from first-year associate to partner. So when NY-based firms are paying 145k AND offering lockstep NY-sized bonuses to their LA associates, it seems the financial incentives might be too strong to pass up."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xux
"And don't forget that the cumulative difference in pay over 5-7 years (including lockstep bonus vs. median L.A. bonus) approaches 75K-100K, not chump change. That, and the fact that you can lateral to any of the L.A. based firms as a non-equity partner (perhaps except the Big 3, where you are not going to make partner anyway) is a big draw for Skadden / Sullivan / Simpson / etc. "
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xv0 |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 11:59 AM Author: Ruddy party of the first part 50k post-tax over 6 years is absolutely chump change (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5270992) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 12:13 PM Author: Cerise Parlour Marketing Idea It's absolutely not. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5271099) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 12:51 PM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef The difference is probably closer to 75k post tax. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5271329) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 12:48 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home I heard a rumor that Latham's Chicago office sent out an email saying they will pay 2600 a week, if true I imagine LA will too which really leave GDC lagging behing L and OMM. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5271308) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 12:52 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess I should ask my Latham NY classmates if they've heard anything, but if OMM is going to go 2800 in NY and 2600 elsewhere, it makes sense that Latham will play the same game.
If Quinn pays $2800 in LA this summer, maybe next year's 2Ls will see some changes. |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 12:53 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home Makes sense, yes. But then again you'd think GDC would too and they didn't. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5271339) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 4:20 PM Author: naked regret garrison i heard a rumor that S&C's LA office has pledged to pay $6K on the 1st and 15th of every month. Any truth to this? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5272945) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 4:25 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yes, but see WTF? $2788/wk summer salary is more like $2705??? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5272978) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 2:06 PM Author: Indigo Swashbuckling Antidepressant Drug Quinn to pay summers only $2600. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5271853) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:13 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Interesting. Source? Is it $2800 in NY? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5274837) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:18 PM Author: Indigo Swashbuckling Antidepressant Drug I have no idea what the NYC pay is, but it would be pretty strange if they paid $2800, when the pay is the same for 1st years in both cities. The source is legit, I assure you. |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:19 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, but it seems strange they would hurry to match NY first-year comp, but still lag on summer salaries. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5274906) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:20 PM Author: Indigo Swashbuckling Antidepressant Drug Yeah it does, but it's true. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5274925) |
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Date: March 8th, 2006 4:54 PM Author: sooty slippery piazza people who are hurt Can you explain how you know so much about Quinn and why you're so interested in them when you don't work there?
It's not strange that SAs are getting paid $2,600. Quinn, above all things, is savvy. What would be the benefit of paying $2,800 when the current summer class is locked in? Quinn can just raise summer salaries to $2,800 in September if it feels that will help recruiting. |
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Date: March 23rd, 2006 7:13 PM Author: Indigo Swashbuckling Antidepressant Drug Can I explain? Yeah, but why the fuck should I? What's it to you? Some people have friends. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5409713) |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:14 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Lot of good stuff on Greedy LA all of a sudden:
"After firms sink $50k per law student into their recruiting costs this summer only to lose a chunk of them to other firms that pay more, there will be no question that the failure to match has had a significant impact. The point is that any student who can leave will leave, which will typically be the very best of each class.
The point that there are more students than jobs is just silly. Sure, someone who barely made the top third at Loyola would love a job at GDC, but that's not who GDC is looking for.
Even worse, good luck recruiting judicial clerks this spring (which is right now, by the way). I think Quinn will be very successful landing them in the next month or two."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xwW |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:18 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "Perhaps LA recruiting from CA law schools won't be affected, but law students with easy access to NY firms will think long and hard about turning down NY money for LA. All major NY firms now pay substantially more than the big 3, even those NY firms with less prestige. LA firms will still fill their recruiting classes, but their ability to attract Ivy grads will be impacted." http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xyY |
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Date: March 7th, 2006 8:19 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "I have to agree. I'm a 3L and what I've seen is that those poor souls that chose going to NY last summer have now been redeemed. For people like me, where NY or LA was a close call, we feel especially duped. Even the people going to Philly are laughing - two of my buddies just learned that they will be making as much in Philly as I will in LA. Unless, of course, I get a raise."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xyj |
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Date: March 8th, 2006 12:50 PM Author: submissive topaz hissy fit "their ability to attract Ivy grads will be impacted"
You mean they'll have to settle for hiring the top students from Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Michigan, and Virginia? The horror! They might as well just close up shop now. |
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Date: March 8th, 2006 11:10 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess "I'm a class of '03 litigator at a Big 3 member and I just got my first cold call from someone asking if I wanted to switch to "another prominent LA firm that's willing to pay you 170,000 per year." Obviously, that universe of firms is fairly small but clearly those firms that are matching NY salaries are already trying to handpick potential laterals.
Quite honestly, the ONLY thing stopping me from interviewing is the fact that I lateraled here in October and I don't want a 4 month stint at another firm on my resume. I worked over 2 years at my first firm (thus earning me the "First Lateral is Free" Pass. Past that, I feel I'm pushing it, but if my peers are getting similar calls, I'm sure they're considering." http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xys |
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Date: March 8th, 2006 2:55 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Okay, now associates in Cali are making as much as Texas. Go figure. V&E raises to 135k for all Texas offices |
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Date: March 8th, 2006 3:05 PM Author: submissive topaz hissy fit Wow, a $25K bump. Prestigious.
I doubt this will have much effect on California firms, though. Salaries being equal, the CoL difference isn't going to tempt many Cali residents to move to freaking Texas. |
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Date: March 13th, 2006 2:47 PM Author: Cerise Parlour Marketing Idea Orrick raises to $145K, according to NYLawyer. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5327009) |
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Date: March 14th, 2006 1:49 AM Author: Walnut 180 Masturbator Potus for all offices, or just NY? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5332441) |
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Date: March 14th, 2006 2:34 AM Author: Cracking Garnet Friendly Grandma Roast Beef I've heard it's only NY and DC. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5332732) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 11:29 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Any news? I'm guessing the Big 3 and I/M are still being LeBOEUFPWN3D. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5380745) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 11:41 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah, I come back from Spring Break just to find they're paying more in Texas than Cali now, go figure.
You can keep saying LeBOEUFPWN3D, but we know it's because it hurts less than QUINNPWN3D. ;) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 11:47 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat True true. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5380847) |
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Date: March 20th, 2006 2:23 PM Author: Greedy stock car Subject: Latham Raises $5K for Mid-Levels and Seniors Close buddy of mine working at Latham just called me. He said that during a global videoconference this morning, Latham bumped salaries for all 2nd-through-8th year domestic (non-NY) associates. First-year salary will remain at $135,000.
What was the raise for upper-classmen, you ask?
Five thousand dollars.
Time to bash this TTT firm! |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:34 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Thanks, edited the OP to reflect this info. Here's what I said about it on the other thread:
Well, this is both good and bad.
The bad news is that it's still behind Quinn and the NY firms. And first years in LA/SF are still making less than first years in Texas, of all places.
The good news is that (aside from Quinn) they're the first firm to match Kirkland in making the raises $10k for all classes. So at a minimum, we should see firms like Gibson, OMM, MoFo, Sidley, etc. match this. The other good news is that this means firms are still reconsidering their raises, so there is still hope that another big firm will up both Latham and Kirkland and match Quinn and the NY firms.
Even if we don't see $145k in the next few months, I think this move still suggests that non-NY firms are realizing that Gibson's $5k raises were way too low and they have to match the NY firms eventually -- so we 2Ls may well see $145k by the time we graduate (or the first year after). |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:23 AM Author: multi-colored pearl degenerate Has anyone heard about summer pay yet?
I think Latham went up? 2600 maybe? can anyone confirm this? I assume GDC is paying 2400 firm wide since thats what they're paying in NY? Is quinn gonna pay $2800, to go along with the 145k base pay? have they said anything? Anyone from OMM, MTO, or any of the other big LA firms heard anything? Irell still hasn't said anyting as far as I know. Are the NY satellites(Skadden, Sullivan, whoever else) paying $2800 in LA? |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:26 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Wow, I even put the link in the OP, but anyway here it is again: Biglaw salary increases (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5386640) |
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Date: March 21st, 2006 12:28 AM Author: multi-colored pearl degenerate thanks (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5386647) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2006 7:01 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Quinn's $145k raise is now officially posted on their website: http://www.quinnemanuel.com/recruiting/default.aspx?recid=40
Susman Godfrey also seems to see the writing on the wall: "The firm--responding to moves by Vinson & Elkins, Andrews Kurth and Baker Botts--plans to raise associate salaries in its Texas, Seattle and Los Angeles offices to New York levels, Susman says." Gunner alert: Susman Godfrey opening in NY |
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Date: March 30th, 2006 1:44 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Susman's raise confirmed: Susman raises 1st year salaries to $145K in L.A. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5462674) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2006 7:23 PM Author: supple white dog poop travel guidebook I know several NorCal IP firms are at 135k+10k signing bonus. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5409778) |
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Date: March 28th, 2006 8:46 PM Author: Cerise Parlour Marketing Idea http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?topic=Greedy%20SF%2fSV&msg_id=002yuY
Not sure this will make a difference for CA-based firms, but at least it's one more NY firm stepping up to the plate. |
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Date: March 28th, 2006 8:51 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Ah, thanks. I was wondering about White & Case, and I think we can assume the LA office is going the same route.
The Greedy post says that White & Case is in growth mode for the Palo Alto office, but they also closed their SF office recently. I'm not sure if they and firms like Dewey are the best candidates for "stepping up to the plate." |
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Date: March 28th, 2006 9:08 PM Author: Cerise Parlour Marketing Idea Didn't Dewey pull out of NorCal altogether? That's certainly a less ambiguous sign than growing one office and closing another 30 miles away. I wonder what the hell is going on.
Regardless, one more firm bumping salaries for whatever reason can only help. |
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Date: March 28th, 2006 9:11 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess The post on this board was about a bunch of partners leaving. On Dewey's website, looks like the office is still there -- but with just one partner, one counsel, and eight associates.
Yeah, White & Case's move might not mean anything. I think they and Shearman were the only NY firms with both SF and SV offices. |
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Date: March 29th, 2006 11:54 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess White & Case goes to $145k for LA also: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002yyr |
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Date: March 30th, 2006 1:21 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Arrrr. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5462514) |
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Date: March 30th, 2006 1:42 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess That was an awesome line today, about how at least you can say you're not selling out because you're only going to make $135k instead of $145k. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5462660) |
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Date: March 30th, 2006 3:04 AM Author: lavender frum church building sweet tailpipe Susman Godfrey went to $145K in L.A. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5463368) |
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Date: April 5th, 2006 4:46 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Gibson reportedly matching Kirkland and Latham with a $5k bump for 2nd years and higher: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002zGP
Can somebody else confirm this? |
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Date: April 10th, 2006 4:10 PM Author: Doobsian trailer park Subject: Confirmed. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5556636) |
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Date: April 10th, 2006 4:12 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Thanks. Greedy LA doesn't seem to have any objections. I've updated the OP to reflect this. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5556651) |
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Date: April 10th, 2006 10:24 AM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Orrick NY has stated that the new salary raises are not coming out of bonuses: http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002zRc (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5554703) |
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Date: April 10th, 2006 5:29 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Christenen's $135k raise ($5k for other years) is in the media: http://www.nylawyer.com/display.php/file=/news/06/04/041006t
Besides describing Christensen as "scandal-rocked," also dings them for being late to the raises. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 10:39 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Gibson has moved to $2800/$2600 for their summers, and maybe they'll update their website next? http://www.google.com/search?q=+site%3Awww.gibsondunn.com+%22one+firm%22
A classmate who knew a little about East Asian politics joked, "One firm, two systems."
nalpdirectory.com is updated (or downgraded, for Firefox users) with all the new info, and it looks like Quinn is the lone beacon for the $145k salary. We'll see what happens when fall recruiting starts... |
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Date: April 19th, 2006 1:17 AM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat I hate the new NALP format. More difficult to read than the old one.
Unfortunately, only a few CA firms give any hint as to their average hours worked or billed.
Quinn: Average billables for 2004 and 2005 listed at 2100. Obviously not exact.
Irell: In 2004, average of 2346 hours worked, 2056 hours billed. In 2005, average of 2347 hours worked, 1992 hours billed.
Fenwick. 2004: 1860. 2005: 1742.
Loeb & Loeb. 2004: 1827. 2005: 1778.
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Date: April 19th, 2006 3:13 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess First terrorists, and now the bubonic plague strikes LA: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/04/19/bubonic.plague.ap/index.html
Maybe I should have stayed in NY where at least it's safe. |
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Date: April 19th, 2006 3:18 PM Author: crawly stirring locale kitty cat Ha. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5611708) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2006 1:02 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Wilson Sonsini joins the (unfortunate) trend:
"Just like Mofo and everyone else with a NYC branch office, WSGR just upped the base for New York associates by $10-20K for junior-to-midlevels, and $20-$40K for senior associates. This is on top of the prior round of raises, so they are making a good bit more than us now. Kind of frustrating. I know the you have to match to compete for talent, but NYC isn't any different than the Bay area on expenses or COL, and the work (at least for WSGR) is not more sophisticated on the east coast."
http://infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0030Af |
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Date: May 9th, 2006 11:39 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Not feeling sufficiently pwn3d yet? Texas is now paying summers $2700/wk: Hey, Texas SAs: Looks like we're getting Gibson'd (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5753835) |
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Date: May 10th, 2006 2:55 PM Author: Flesh Galvanic Home :( (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5758237) |
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Date: May 10th, 2006 2:58 PM Author: Pontificating Mad-dog Skullcap Fortuitous Meteor Like I tell my boyfriend, consider a career in a state with a relevant legal market. They tend to pay better. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#5758261) |
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Date: January 23rd, 2007 8:35 PM Author: beady-eyed black foreskin 160 vigil? Do I hear 155? |
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Date: January 23rd, 2007 8:37 PM Author: aromatic bossy kitchen jewess Yeah I got really lazy on this one, not that it stopped mattering. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=358058&forum_id=2#7475061) |