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The Top 14 will remain the same forever
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Date: September 24th, 2004 8:33 AM Author: mildly autistic locus There is simply too much of an already-existing establishment for the non-elite to ever catch up to the elite schools in terms of endowment, student-spending, research, grants, excellent faculty, and everything else that makes up an elite academic institution. Non-elites have the only hope of attracting bright students with money or other rewards in hopes that they'll matriculate, but those students will always be deviant from the norm, and by far, the best students will almost always attend an elite school. It's a cycle-- the students of the current elite schools will go on to be more successful than the average graduate of a non-elite. There is simply no way to break the cycle.
The Top 14 will stay the same forever, barring a radical methodology change in US News or similar act of God. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 8:38 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend Here we go again...
As long as Boalt is in the Top 14, the Top 14 is in danger of extinction. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:01 AM Author: Effete rigpig Boalt is going to make a strong comeback soon though. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384562) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:03 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend Yeah they should be back in probably the top 10 in the 2007 rankings. But if they slip to 15 next year the Top 14 will be eternally shattered, even if it reforms in 2007. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384566) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:09 AM Author: Effete rigpig I doubt Boalt will slip that low unless its medians go down. Have Boalt's #s for this past cycle been released yet? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384583) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:10 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend not yet. I agree it would be highly unlikely for them to slip that far, especially since their rep scores are still quite high, but no one really saw them slipping so much last year either, so who knows. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384589) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:17 AM Author: Multi-colored national security agency Its medians were likely determined before USNews even came out. The cycle was wearing down by April. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384611) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:20 AM Author: Effete rigpig I know, hence why it'll depend on whether they held their ground median-wise relative to everyone else this past cycle or if they went down even more due to their pseudo-AA.
What was the difference between Boalt and GULC in terms of points? If the difference between Boalt and GULC is very slim (ie. 1 point) and GULC made another median increase while Boalt declined, there's a real chance of Boalt at #14 (though I doubt they'd slip down further than that). |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:23 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend Here's the #s:
Cornell 80 Boalt 79 GULC 76 Texas 75
Looking at this, it would seem GULC's the one in trouble, but I think that would be incorrect, since GULC's medians are already at top-10 levels. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:25 AM Author: Effete rigpig Didn't realize the gap between Boalt and GULC was bigger than the gap between GULC and Texas. You're right that it looks like GULC is in big trouble, but Texas, due to the 80% in state rule, can't really increase its medians by much at all. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384626) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:28 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend I remember when these rankings first came out a lot of people were already declaring the top 14 to be dead due to the close proximity of GULC and Texas. But I think that conclusion relies too slavishly on the specifics of the US News methodology. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384634) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:32 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage This is idiotic. There is no difference between Boalt in any qualitative way since last year. What has happened is that their hidden expenditure score has taken a hit with the budget cutbacks they have had. Of course Boalt still possess an amazing faculty and enjoys a great reputation. I think they will be back in the top 10 next year (my guess tied with Duke for 10). (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384644) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:34 AM Author: Multi-colored national security agency Other publics with "cuts" still did fine. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384652) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:39 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage I believe Cali was worst hit. At any rate you are telling me that expenditures have something to do with quality? If yes, they that is idiotic. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384666) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:35 AM Author: Effete rigpig How will they accomplish this? Their budget is still being cut, right? If their budget is cut and their medians don't increase or go down, how are they going to make a leap to 10 unless someone else, like Cornell, experiences a sharp decline? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384653) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:38 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage GTO are you going to tell me that you, an itelligent person who attends a Top 10 LS is going to go by what UsNews says about LS "quality"?
My point is it doesnt matter for chips, because UsNews is defunct, due to their insidious use of "hidden expenditures" |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:39 AM Author: Effete rigpig The top of this thread is obviously US News rankings, so by "sharp decline" I'm talking in terms of US News and nothing else.
That said, I don't see a problem with hidden expenditures being used. $ is definitely important to a legal education. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:42 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage so if a school builds a new hall, or adds volumes to their library that is worthy of them soaring in the rankings, while not changing their student/faculty body in any meaningful way? Seriously..... (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384673) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:45 AM Author: Effete rigpig Yes, it is. Both of those improve the resources that students and faculty have access to. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384681) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:47 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage So you would then concede that Duke is a Top 10 school and Boalt is not? Really now.......... (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384686) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:55 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend You're missing the point of this discussion. We were talking about the survival or non-survival of the Top 14 as an entity in terms of US News rankings. We got off talking about specific rankings only in the context of whether or not a particular school would fall out of the top 14. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384706) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:58 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage MY point is that because of this expenditure crap who cares if a school drops out? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384714) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:00 AM Author: Effete rigpig Poor school ==> fewer resources ==> lower quality of education (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384718) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:00 AM Author: Effete rigpig I never said I'm a fan of US News methodology, all I said was that I think those hidden expenditures are important to school quality. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384721) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:27 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Not sure what Berekley can do about the spending cuts, but they say their medians are now 168/3.83. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384779) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:28 AM Author: gaped apoplectic ticket booth dog poop that's pretty high
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:35 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Probably won't make much difference on their ranking anyway. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384800) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:34 AM Author: Self-centered Shrine Hominid no way that's their median lsat. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384798) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:36 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Call their admissions office -- that is what they told me yesterday. Maybe they lied. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384805) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:37 AM Author: Self-centered Shrine Hominid i think they did. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384809) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:45 AM Author: Effete rigpig You sure those are the medians for enrolled students, and not accepted students? I would buy 3.83/168 as medians of accepted but it's extremely unbelievable for enrolled. I mean for enrolled that would be what, a 3 point increase? A 3 point LSAT increase despite a huge tuition hike and their pseudo-AA policy makes no sense, especially when you consider the rankings drop and their refusal to accept many people with split #s. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384832) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:49 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Look, I was surprised too. Maybe they gave me accepted student numbers, but I asked for enrolled students. It's too early in Calf. to check again right now. Maybe I will check again later.
I don't disagree with your reasoning. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:56 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Those numbers must have been accepted students. I called again and specifically asked for enrolled students and they said: 165/3.78.
I should have been more skeptical. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:35 AM Author: Effete rigpig No fucking way is it that high. The GPA is believable, but definitely not that LSAT. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384801) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:39 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor If it is right, Berkeley may have been able to pull it off by accepting a different mix of applicants this year. I have no doubt that they had many quality applicants in their pool. Also, the school was under pressure from its alumni to increase its LSAT score. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384815) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:46 AM Author: Effete rigpig Yeah but look at LSN and postings on this past cycle... How many people with low GPA / high LSAT splits did they take? Very few, if any. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384835) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:31 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor What is interesting here is GULCs reputation scores:
Last year:
GULC: 4.1/4.2
Texas: 4.1/4.1
The year before:
GULC: 4.2/4.4
Texas: 4.2/4.1
Since rep. scores count 40%, a lot will depend on what happens to GULC's rep. scores this year. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:48 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage What is your opinion on UsNews. Do you think Boalt, Duke and NU Top 10? I think it difficult to not include Boalt and to include NU. What are your thoughts? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384840) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:59 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Well, they did that last year. I really can't predict because I do not have the relevant information. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384894) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:01 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage would you consider NU and Duke Top 10 and Boalt Top 14? Seems weird to me. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384900) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:06 AM Author: filthy floppy private investor Based on reputation -- no. But we all know that US News does not rank schools solely on reputation. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384911) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:20 AM Author: Self-centered Shrine Hominid yes, they are better law schools (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384955) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:45 AM Author: Hairraiser cream theater stage I agree Duke and Boalt are...... (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1385075) |
Date: September 24th, 2004 9:12 AM Author: Multi-colored national security agency UCLA was in the 14 when Northwestern was 17.
T14 is a myth. |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:13 AM Author: Effete rigpig When was this, 15 years ago? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384599) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 9:14 AM Author: Multi-colored national security agency Early-1990s. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384605) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 10:33 AM Author: Self-centered Shrine Hominid yeah, that methodology is over with. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1384792) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:33 AM Author: submissive famous landscape painting generalized bond Just so everyone knows, I am *not* dogfucker. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1385015) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:35 AM Author: boyish cobalt legend imposter (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1385022) |
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Date: September 24th, 2004 11:36 AM Author: submissive famous landscape painting generalized bond more like im-porn-star. Impersonating Rocco. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=86433&forum_id=2#1385026) |
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Date: October 4th, 2004 10:05 AM Author: Effete rigpig dogfucker, you're famous.
http://webapp.utexas.edu/blogs/bleiter/archives/002095.html
The less they know, the more they're suckered by US News
A law student e-mailed me the text of a posting from some prelaw discussion board authored by someone with the charming moniker "dogfucker." The student who sent this assures me that this reflects how some students actually think about things, and that it is not a joke. The title of the posting was
"The Top 14 Will Always Be the Same,"
apparently a reference to the fact that for about the last 8 or 9 years, the same 14 law schools have been in the top 14 of the US News rankings (which may be true, I'm not certain). (The same 16 law schools have been in the top 16 since US News made the last major change in its methodology in 1999, but for unknown reasons this escapes notice. The top 15 have also been in the top 15 in reputation since US News started ranking schools in 1987, but this is also unnoticed, it appears.) Here is the posting:
"There is simply too much of an already-existing establishment for the non-elite to ever catch up to the elite schools in terms of endowment, student-spending, research, grants, excellent faculty, and everything else that makes up an elite academic institution. Non-elites have the only hope of attracting bright students with money or other rewards in hopes that they'll matriculate, but those students will always be deviant from the norm, and by far, the best students will almost always attend an elite school. It's a cycle-- the students of the current elite schools will go on to be more successful than the average graduate of a non-elite. There is simply no way to break the cycle. The Top 14 will stay the same forever, barring a radical methodology change in US News or similar act of God."
The really weird thing here is that it is largely true that "there is simply too much of an already-existing establishment for the non-elite to ever catch up to the elite schools in terms of endowment, student-spending, research, grants, excellent faculty, and everything else that makes up an elite academic institution," but this doesn't correlate with the current (or even recent) top 14 in US News, though it correlates slightly better with the top 17 or 18. For example, USC has a better faculty than Duke (even with Chemerinsky's move, and allowing for Van Alstyne's departure from Duke), and, last time I saw the data, a much better endowment (2 or 3 years ago). Indeed, most of the US News top 17 or so have much bigger endowments than other schools, though places like Duke and Penn and Cornell trail a bit, while schools like Washington University and Mercer have much larger per capita endowments than several of the top 17. In terms of research (e.g., impact and productivity), there is not much difference between Texas and UCLA, on the one hand, and Georgetown, Duke, Penn, and Northwestern on the other--and where there is a difference, it is primarily that Texas and sometimes UCLA are stronger. There is no statistically meaningful difference in student credentials between Cornell, Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, and USC. And so on.
So the odd thing here is that the author's supposition (that the first 14 in US News defines the category) is rather obviously non-factual, at least to anyone who knows anything. So how did this student arrive at this rather fantastic view? The author makes the answer clear: US News. Sad. |