K&E's probably in the top 3 or 4 hardest offers in DC. i agree that is a surprisingly good result for GW. it probably reflects their clerkship placement, which seems stronger than the USNWR rank would suggest.
edit: based on what people have said below, i concede that it might be less selective than this.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:19 PM Author: zombie-like dull forum
We really don't know how "well" GW is doing compared to GULC unless we know how many offers were given. Back in the days when I was a 2L, I attended several offer dinners and noticed that my school had an overwhelming number of people in attendance compared to another local school (joint offer dinners). It was like 10-to-1. However, at the end of the day, the firms ended up nearly the same number of people from each school. For my classmates, this was one of several nice options; for the other school, they were thanking god.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:24 PM Author: zombie-like dull forum
Another point I just remembered: all the people from the other school were law review nerds; from my school, there were guys and gals I'm sure were cruising just about the median (no journal, and didn't end up graduating with honors).
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:44 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
Still no excuse for getting PWN3D in your own market. Lots of Chicago students go to NYC, but we're not getting out-placed at top Chicago firms by Notre Dame.
Date: March 17th, 2006 2:08 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
You're probably right nationally, but Kirland's Chicago office isn't that much better than Sidley's, if at all. Most people who got Sidley callbacks/offers also got Kirkland callbacks/offers, and vice versa.
In what fucking way is K&E a peer with Jenner DC? Jenner Dc does not recruit at either GW or GULC, and ther are no students from either in their summer class.
i was talking about firms a person could plausibly choose between. in terms of the appellate practice area, they're peers in type and quality of work. sure, Jenner has a smaller class from a smaller number of schools.
i think someone might easily choose one or the other on clients/politics, for example. they have very different reputations (maybe opposite) in that regard.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:55 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
You'd have to be a pretty hardcore right winger to pick Kirkland over Jenner/Williams/Wilmer/Covington (where you'd likely also have offers) based on politics. Hell, Gibson is more prestigious and has a similar right-wing rep.
And 99% of the work you'd be doing at any of those firms is apolitical anyway. Defending big corporations is defending big corporations.
you seem to know more about K&E's quality than i do; i'd never seen Jenner as that much stronger. as to the other three firms you mentioned, i didn't put them in the mix because they're not appellate boutiques.
Nobody chooses K&E DC over Jenner, and they are not near peers for the purposes of this discussion. People at GW have a 0 chance of getting a job there, while people at GULC have only the most incredibly miniscule chance.
Date: March 18th, 2006 3:43 PM Author: big tantric hospital corn cake
i can only speak for myself. i would happily work for k&e dc, but i wouldn't go near jenner. your opening remark just isn't so (at least, it isn't so in my case).
Outside DC? There are lot more options here. This post from above is dead on in my exp and from what I've heard from others:
"We really don't know how "well" GW is doing compared to GULC unless we know how many offers were given. Back in the days when I was a 2L, I attended several offer dinners and noticed that my school had an overwhelming number of people in attendance compared to another local school (joint offer dinners). It was like 10-to-1. However, at the end of the day, the firms ended up nearly the same number of people from each school. For my classmates, this was one of several nice options; for the other school, they were thanking god."
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:38 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
Dude, are you freaking kidding? Georgetown places crappy in DC because its students would rather work in other cities? I've seen some trolling before, but you win the gold fucking medal.
"For my classmates, this was one of several nice options; for the other school, they were thanking god."
Yeah, I'm sure Wilmer and Williams are just one of several nice options for most GULC students.
What makes you think that a person choosing between DPW-NY and Wilmer-DC is more likely to choose Wilmer?
The point is that people at GULC are more likely to have comparable offers in markets outside DC than GW students, or to exclusively seek out markets outside DC b/c they have the option.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
You are such a sad little troll. Every top-14 school sends people to NYC, but GULC is the only one that can't place better in its own market than a school that's barely in the top 20.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:58 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
I agree that we need more data, but your attempts to rationalize GULC's poor showing so far are truly pathetic. GULC isn't losing more top students to NYC than other top schools.
I'm sorry you didn't take the scholarship money at GW.
Date: March 17th, 2006 2:13 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
Imcomplete data? Maybe a shitload of UVA people are going to Covington this summer? Or maybe UVA is a bigger TTT than people realize?
Time will tell. But I bet the UVA students won't try to fly some chickenshit excuse about how all their top students suddenly decided they wanted to go to NYC.
Date: March 17th, 2006 6:19 PM Author: hairraiser ruby main people locale
Funny that he thinks the results of 4 firms means GULC is getting "pwned" whereas it is insufficient data for UVA. I know a couple of people that turned down K&E for other DC firms (like Skadden or Arnold & porter) and (gasp!) lower ranked firms not even mentioned in this post. I'm sure that happened at GW too.
this data doesn't mean anything without more information. Making the assumption that people always pick the highest ranked (or most prestigious) offer they get is retarded.
Date: March 17th, 2006 6:27 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
It's insufficient data for GULC too. But this troll was arguing that even if it held up, it could be explained away by geographical preferences. Which is nonsense.
Date: March 18th, 2006 3:51 PM Author: Medicated quadroon jew
I think it's funny how you can't help but bring UVa into this discussion, even when no one has mentioned us. You really need to deal with this long-running inferiority complex you have with us
I think that because DC is a tougher market than NY that GULC might outperform GW more markedly in NY than in DC - that is, I think that the most competitive firms in DC require the same rank (top 10 or 15%) from GW and GULC, while top NY firms may only require top 25% from GULC and top 15% from GW. This is obviously just a guess on my part, but it's based on my friends' experiences (from GW and GULC) in NY and DC.
Yeah, I agree for the most part. The very top DC firms only take top 10 or 15% of either school.
I'm not saying that other firms in DC (and in NY) don't go deeper into the class at GULC than they do at GW, but for students at the top of the class the schools are pretty much the same.
It was apparently one of the assumptions of the other guy that students from GW and GULC typically prefer a top DC firm/office over comparable firms/offices elsewhere. But we have absolutely no evidence to indicate that so I was pointing out that his assumption has no basis.
Some of those firms don't have much of a corporate practice to speak of.
I chose a firm with a comparable corporate practice to one of those firms, but in the end one in which I thought was slightly better and more national than the firm I did not choose.
Date: March 17th, 2006 4:19 PM Author: claret circlehead lettuce
That's reasonable, and probably not uncommon. My point is just that GULC students aren't turning down offers from these firms because they have offers at better firms, as a couple of the other posters were implying. There really aren't any better biglaw firms than these in DC.
EDIT: Skadden's DC office appears to be less corporate-focused than its other offices. According to NALP, only 40 lawyers do "Corporate" work there, compared to 86 doing "Litigation."
Outside of xoxo, I don't think it's considered to be unimaginable that students would choose a lower ranked or so-called less prestigious firm over a top ranked firm, especially when there are other factors at play - e.g. strengths in particular practice areas, location, lifestyle differences, etc.
However, people on this board like to believe that no student would ever choose Kirkland-DC or Sidley-DC over Covington, for instance, when I know of a few people at GW that made that choice (or one similar to it). People have different priorities that factor into their decisions, and not everyone has prestige as their top priority, contrary to conventional wisdom on this board. So the numbers of SA's at top firms isn't always an accurate reflection of how well a school did at those firms.
ok, let me get this massive pw3age straight here. you're providing data that show michigan as placing the 2nd best out of the 3 T14 midwestern schools? isn't that par for the course? also, why did you conveniently leave out Williams & Connolly? their info is in the same thread that you referred to 3 times.
Date: March 17th, 2006 3:05 PM Author: Pink thirsty alpha
i didnt include williams bc it wasnt mentioned in the post that i was responding to and while mentioned elsewhere, seems to be discussed mainly in the GULC v GW posts. I included GDC because that seems to be what comes up in the "peers" posts above.
If you want to include Williams thats fine I dont really care. Even still, did you know that Michigan's class is 380 and Chicago's is 190? Do the math. 10 to 7 when the 10 is from a class half the size seems like pwnage to me.
As for "massive," that adjective was in reference to hells bells being a umich troll. all i said was PWN3D and I stand by that.
I am not concerned with nu's placement. As for the midwestern schools part, I don't think there is any argument that all three have great placement - I'm just poking fun at hells bells here (I posted specifically to elicit a response from him bc he posts anytime someone says something about umich's placement). But to be exact, Chicago has better placement numbers nationally than the other two and on par with nu in chicago, both of which are better than umich in chicago.
I will leave the national placement umich v nu for someone else to argue. I'd say they're equal, but then again I don't care.
Date: March 17th, 2006 3:37 PM Author: shimmering site mood
"I'm just poking fun at hells bells here (I posted specifically to elicit a response from him bc he posts anytime someone says something about umich's placement)."
Do you really expect anyone to believe that? It's not even close to being true, as I am much more likely to bash Michigan than to praise it.
Date: March 17th, 2006 3:44 PM Author: shimmering site mood
"i didnt include williams bc it wasnt mentioned in the post that i was responding to and while mentioned elsewhere, seems to be discussed mainly in the GULC v GW posts."
Uh, the post you responded to was the original post. Which post are you claiming to have responded to? You are, of course, full of shit.
Date: March 17th, 2006 5:52 PM Author: shimmering site mood
You're not making any sense. You know you've been PWN3D. The man asked you why you chose the firms you did, without including W&C. You have no response.
You're a douche who was dinged by Chicago and Michigan.
Date: March 17th, 2006 6:20 PM Author: shimmering site mood
Yeah, I'm unoriginal. But you can't stop posting, and you can't answer the question. I bet we can get this thread to 200 posts before the 7 pm games begin.
Your response is so fuckin lame. What you really want to do is troll for Northwestern but you can't so you cling onto UC beating Michigan. In this case, Northwestern is not even on the comparison chart.
Among the firms that have been brought up, UC pwns Michigan pwns Northwestern. Fair? Why bring up placement in Chicago? B/c it's the only major legal market that Northwestern beats Michigan in? Do you so badly need to say something good about Northwestern? Give me some data on San Fran, LA, DC, and NYC placement for Michigan and Northwestern. If not, STFU and stick to the DC placement topic.
Date: March 17th, 2006 5:53 PM Author: Pink thirsty alpha
i am trolling for nu? that's rich. im glad you admit that "UC pwns Michigan." That was my point. I remain correct. As I said before, I have no horse in the nu v umich debate. Debate it without me.
Date: March 17th, 2006 1:28 PM Author: silver drunken school rigpig
I know from a pretty reliable source that there were 9 offers extended to GW people for this summer. Most of those people were at the top of the class, and those that did not take K&E took other very competitive DC Firms.