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S&C sucks - don't go there.
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Date: July 31st, 2006 11:57 PM Author: lilac center And I'm a just a summer.
Go to Davis. Go to Cravath. Go to STB. Go to Debeviose. They might not be much better, but there is no way they could be worse. |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 11:58 PM Author: heady olive meetinghouse you accidentally wrote "S&C" instead of "The Legal Profession" in the thread title. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6349984) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 11:59 PM Author: lilac center Maybe true. But everyone here seems incredibly unhappy - the corporate culture is one of unhappiness. I think the other firms might be a little better. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6349996) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:08 AM Author: stirring puce lodge probably false, but you can always do 3L OCI (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350098) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:07 AM Author: lilac center Don't have to. All the firms I was serious about said that you can just call them up in august and they'll reinterview you then. Apparently they love snatching people from other firms because they can use them at recruiting events. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350698) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 7:13 PM Author: metal immigrant pit 180 (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6364337) |
Date: August 1st, 2006 1:03 AM Author: Medicated stead The solution would be to find another city that has other things that'll excite you.... (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350660) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:05 AM Author: Federal Jade Sanctuary Queen Of The Night Like not being at S&C!
ROFL |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:08 AM Author: lilac center Probably true. But even if you are stuck in NYC, I really think you can meet a firm with associates that have better morale than this place. Everyone says the firm is "stuffy." What that really means is, "unhappy." Its just a culture where you are not supposed to be happy. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350706) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:04 AM Author: cerebral sooty trailer park persian just dont do biglaw you fucktard. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350668) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:11 AM Author: lilac center Fair point. I don't know if any place is better. But my instincts are saying that it is a little different at other firms. I really don't think this could be any worse. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350733) |
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Date: July 21st, 2007 1:25 PM Author: sepia filthpig incel Are you talking about the instincts that also told you to summer at S&C? Maybe you shouldn't follow those instincts so closely. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#8416025) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:14 PM Author: Marvelous abusive casino associate yupyup (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353584) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:05 AM Author: coral cuckold i heard cravath sucks too. the people are mean. go to a v20 - 40 firm with a more laid back culture where you can stand out. it IS true that the intellectual process of firms is not constant. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350682) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:10 AM Author: lilac center I might try DPW - it isn't any better as far as hours, but I am starting to think that whole "nicer" thing is really just about being happy, or at the very least not being forcefully unhappy. I've already written off cravath - though I would guess the exit options would be better. But whatever.
V20-40 is my long term goal after I toil in the V5 for 2 - 4 years. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:16 AM Author: lilac center Dammit! What a fucking mistake. I should have gotten a PHD in history. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350774) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:20 AM Author: Orange very tactful hell It's weird, everyone I know who has worked there says this and yet it doesn't seem to have registered with the conventional wisdom on this board or in law school. BTW, if your long-term goals is a Vault 20-40 you'd probably be better off starting there. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350801) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:25 AM Author: lilac center Does it make a difference if I go to DPW instead? I really doubt it. DPW is more selective anyways.
I'm totally not coming back. I know its prestigious and all that, but I'd rather work at Stroock, with all seriousness.
I know plenty of people who ran out of S&C into a V20-40. I don't think its that hard to do. It is much more common these days, though , for the V20-40 people to lateral into S&C. The brand has been totally diluted. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:28 AM Author: Orange very tactful hell Probably not in terms of hours, but firm culture makes a big difference. If S&C wasn't a good fit for you then you should look elsewhere. If I were you I'd do 3L recruiting with an open mind and focus on "fit" as much as possible. I genuinely felt like I clicked with people at my firm and I think that's really important. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350841) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:31 AM Author: lilac center Like I said above, I basically have open offers to go to DPW or CSM. I haven't decided between those two, but will likely take davis. They love snatching S&C summer people and sending them to recruiting events.
I was talking more about exit options. I knew the hours were the same. I am all for working hard - I just hate the negative attitude at S&C. I walk into the building and there is just this amazing negative tension. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:36 AM Author: Orange very tactful hell S&C is slightly more prestigious and has better connections to finance so those kind of exit options will probably be a little better, but in reality it's more likely to depend on the rest of your resume/interviewing skills/etc.
Again, I would do 3L recruiting with an open mind. If nothing turns up or if no lower-ranked firms really impress you then you can always go to DPW. I know a few people who summered at S&C, CSM-type firms and then ended up going deep into the V100 because they realized that prestige was not the most important thing to them in selecting a firm. And, like I said above, if your long-term goal is a partnership at one of these firms it's definitely better just to start there. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:40 AM Author: lilac center To be honest, I figure i'm more likely to go inhouse somewhere. I think going to a V100 firm is a big risk.
Interesting about the "prestige" advantages of S&C - I don't see that at all, especially given that DPW is significantly more selective, though I admit its tough for me to compare as just a summer.
DPW seems to be a sweatshop but at least the people are a bit more team oriented. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:45 AM Author: Orange very tactful hell DPW = more prestigious offer; S&C = more prestigious firm. Yeah, if your goal is in-house you should probably stay at a V10. CSM sounds just as shitty. Go to DPW. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350933) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:48 AM Author: lilac center Yea, ok. Thanks for the advice - it was good all around. I think you are right - perhaps the M&A practice at S&C is better than that of DPW, and perhaps even the partners are a bit more prestigious. But I don't think any of this is helpful to an associate. Whatever... I don't think I'd be happy here.
I might not be happy at DPW either, but I think its worth a try. You're right about partnership in 20-40 - but I think i'd also be happy with going in house, so I think going to DPW for a couple years will help keep my options open.
ARGH! Why did I just go there this summer! NAAIVEPWN#D!!1 |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:38 PM Author: frozen aphrodisiac senate quadroon Since you mentioned Stroock for some reason, I'm not sure why that firm gets singled out on this board. It might not be as prestigious as other firms, but its pay is roughly the same, they do some good work, and the hours appear manageable. But by all means, continue to flock like lemmings to the S&C's of the world and be miserable. Good luck. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352843) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:34 PM Author: lilac center It is undeniable that the inhouse opportunities out of S&C or another V10 firm are superior to the exit options out of Stroock.
You might win on the here and now at stroock, but you're making a sacrifice about long term career goals.
These are all generalities - obviously you can do very well out of stroock and you can do very badly out of S&C. I think I need about 2-4 years of V10 firm experience just to establish a pedigree and give me the best options to make an educated decision. but I could very well wind up working as a 5th year at stroock alongside others who had been there the whole time, and I don't think this would bother me. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 3:03 PM Author: frozen aphrodisiac senate quadroon I agree that exit options overall are probably better out of firms like S&C, but keep in mind that at SSL you actually have a shot at making partner if you're good and you want it, while at more "prestigious" firms it's basically understood that you're never making partner, so the exit options had better be good. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354015) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:29 AM Author: lilac center Fair, but I think you guys overestimate the difficulty of a 5th year at a V10 moving down to be on partnership track at a V50. Yea, it isn't guaranteed by any means, but it is certainly doable if you are flexible. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358133) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:34 AM Author: lilac center I apologize to the board if I ever trolled for S&C. I don't expect 2ls about to do OCI to take my word for it, but I stress to you - do your research, and weigh your options. Don't go here over STB or debevoise or Sherman because you think its more prestigious. It just isn't worth it. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350865) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:54 AM Author: Shaky Fragrant Heaven Main People Could you describe the atmosphere further and give some examples (not specific, just general)? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351001) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:03 AM Author: lilac center Hard to explain, really, but i'll try.
Almost every associate i've met hates it here, except for the occasional associate from a shitty law school (read: NYLS or some canandian school you've never heard of) who is overwhelmingly happy to have the job. Further more, they talk about how much they hate it ALL THE TIME. Keep in mind i'm a summer, and they are theoretically supposed to be on good behavior around me. While i've been here, my associate mentor and buddy both told me that they were almost certainly going to leave the firm at first opportunity and would definately not be here when I get back. Another associate told me it would be a "big fucking mistake" if I went to work there, though he attempted to rationalize it by saying "but i'm sure its just as shitty everywhere else."
As far as work, it can be very interesting. The midlevels i've encounted, however, are horrendous people. I've admired exactly 4 midlevels that i've met since recruiting, and they have all left the firm since that time. People are leaving in droves - part of that is true at all biglaw firms because the market is so good, but people aren't leaving with the "I really enjoyed S&C" line - they are very, very happy to be gone.
Beyond that, I can't really explain it any more than to say that it is a culture of unhappiness. The associates here seem to all by hardcore gunner types, the ones that Stroock warned you about who hoarde the super-secret notes. When you are walking around the firm, it just feels suffocating and very, very tense. I guess this is what they mean by "stuffy." Many of the partners seem to be very passive aggressive.
I've met some good people - one partner impressed me very much. But, generally speaking, I dread going into the office each day, and that is pretty bad considering i'm a summer. It is very tiring to hear other fulltime associates talk about how "Great it is to be a summer" and "how much it sucks when you actually work full time" and how "shitty the work is" and how the "partners screw us with pay." I'm not sure the work or the hours are actually any different from the other firms - but I am pretty sure that the general attitude is different. People here don't like working here, it seems, and feel some social obligation to make sure that no one else does either. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:13 AM Author: Shaky Fragrant Heaven Main People Thanks for the interesting post.
Above, you mentioned that you might be happier/better-off at a firm like Stroock. Do you think that rising 2Ls (like myself) should just toss the V rankings out the window and just choose a firm where we feel at home? And do you think that there's a very significant difference in your exit options from S&C and another firm like PBWT or Stroock?
I know that I need a pretty decent work environment to survive, so I would be very interested in your perspective on this. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:18 AM Author: lilac center That's a very difficult question.
Prestige matters at a certain level. If you want to work in house, the exit options are certainly superior out of S&C than out of Strook. Though the post above noted that if you want to be partner at a V20-40, its better to start there - and I agree with this.
It depends on what you want to do. If you want to go onto the business side, then yes, prestige matters. If you want to go inhouse, I'd try to get a V10 job. If you are more interesting in becoming a partner at a firm, be less into the vault guide.
But I don't think there is any good reason to choose Sullivan over, say Simpson Thacher or Debevoise, unless you are really desperate to be an ibanker at Goldman. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:42 PM Author: plum home you should have been an I banker. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353827) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:14 PM Author: lilac center I can't tell you how many associates here have been whining about that.
As bad as banking is hours wise, i gather MOST banks have better morale than this. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:18 PM Author: plum home how hard is it for most S&C associates to lateral over to banking? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354624) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:20 PM Author: lilac center Not sure - i never really looked into it. I met at least one guy who went from the M&A department into goldman IB. He was a jackass though so I couldn't really figure out how he did it. I don't think you have to be particularly bright, I just think you have to really, really want to do it.
its certainly possible but if you dont' want to be a lawyer don't go to law school, |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 7:59 PM Author: charcoal swashbuckling really tough guy Wow, you make V11-19 sound like a really bad idea. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7463578) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:22 AM Author: Gold racy french chef To S&C's credit, they seem to be very unified in the sense that this culture seems to exist across all their offices (West Coast and Asia) as well as across partners, associates, and staff. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351204) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:25 AM Author: lilac center I honestly think they take pride in being unhappy and bitter. Kinda funny that its all over for them.
Its all about corporate culture - a lot of time being told you should be unhappy leads to your being unhappy. It is very tiring. Its really amazing, and I don't really see any upside to coming here over DPW or STB. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:34 AM Author: Gold racy french chef This is the gunner mentality. If you have ibanker friends (who haven't left), they are much the same way -- they will brag about how many hours they worked and how late they stayed at the office. And it's self-perpetuating because the gunner partners will want to hire in their image, and they will create a culture where only gunners could survive.
How do the other summers feel? Do they just assume every firm is like this and resign themselves to their fate? |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:40 AM Author: lilac center I haven't got as good a sense of the summers, mainly because they don't want to talk shit and then not have any other options and have to come back. Every person who is splitting, though, as told me that they are much more likely to go to the other firm. Still others (like the people from crappy law schools) are in bliss. MANY of them are hardcore gunners, working until 9 every night even though they are summers, so they fit right in.
Many first years do seem to rationalize it by saying every other firm is shitty too. I'm sure the work is similar, but my bet is that the culture is different at other firms. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:26 AM Author: gaped insane rigpig resort i like it at s&c. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351589) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 10:53 AM Author: Onyx liquid oxygen black woman why would you go to davis (which is a CHEAPASS, passive agressive sweatshop filled with uptight douches -- hmm, sounds a bit like s&c) rather than go to wachtell and make a shitload more money and with great support and tightknit culture. most people at wachtell go there for a reason and seem to really like it, as long as you don't mind working really hard. it's the only firm where the prestige matches the level of responsibility and real work you get at a junior level.
i diss on wachtell all the time, but in all seriousness, i think that's the only vault 5 that makes any sense going to. i think if you're looking at the top firms, it's true you may work harder at wachtell than anywhere else (might not even be true if you're not doing m&a), but since your hours are gonna suck wherever you are, might as well get paid $80k bonus as a 1st year, the best exit opportunities and a smaller office with a fully stocked pantry. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:01 AM Author: Lime parlour It is tempting from an "hours worked" perspective. If you're willing to do NYC Biglaw at all, you're willing to work a little less than 60 hours. However, if you want to work at a TOP firm, it's more like 60-65. From this point, if you're willing to work a little less than 65, why wouldn't you just work 70 for the extra money and prestige?
Fortunately, most of us will never have this dilemna. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:12 AM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction If it's something like 8 hours (say from 63 to 71), that's the difference between working an additional weekend day and having it off. That can make a pretty big difference in terms of being able to go out late the night before that weekend day, get your errands done, spend time with your SO, etc. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352394) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:15 AM Author: Onyx liquid oxygen black woman i dont necessarily think there's a correlation between vault ranking and hours worked. there may be differences depending on what groups or dept you are in, but overall, ny hours are ny hours, no matter what firm you are at. what really baffles me are how firms like cadwalder and proskauer where people work long hours for sucky prestige and yet these firms are still able to get large hordes of people every year.
so the only real differences in what makes associates happier at some firms versus others is usually in the small things that impact office culture, e.g. not being treated like babies with restrictive internet policies where you can't check webmail (like cleary), mandatory in-office from 9:30-5:30 (like simpson) and clocking in and out when you run down for coffee, etc. the other difference is in compensation, and that's really why it makes a ton of sense to go to wachtell if you have the grades for it. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:24 AM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction Lower-ranked ny firms get lots of people because there are far more people who want to work like hell and make 145K a year than there are spots for those people. People don't suddenly get the urge to move to Iowa or something just because they're at the bottom of the class at a good school, and those who are at the top of the class of lower-ranked schools have often been set on a particular market for years.
I agree that the things you list make a huge difference. Huge. But hours matter somewhat too, and 5-8 more a week really can matter (especially if they're placed at a bad time, which extra ones usually are). |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:48 AM Author: Onyx liquid oxygen black woman but can you generalize where you will consistently work less at one firm over another? i think that's so difficult to do. is working at o'melveny ny mean you'll have better hours than at paul weiss? i don't think you can say necessarily so.
i mean, i thought the firm i would like to end up in has better hours than places like cravath or skadden, but attorneys who lateraled from there have told me otherwise. they say the difference is not so much in hours but rather respect for vacation time or flexibility to work from home, etc. i'm still pretty sure i will work on average less than an associate at cravath, but i think the the actual hours differences btwn large ny firms are not consistent. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:53 AM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction I don't think you're guaranteed. I think that the averages may have some predictive power. Just to be clear - I don't think there's any meaningful difference between a firm where the average is 56 adn one where the average is 58. If we're talking about an 8-12 hour difference, I think that might be enough to matter. But that's just guesswork, admittedly.
I totally forgot about the vacation time thing. That's so huge. There's nothing that makes people surlier than having their vacations cancelled. I think it also makes a big difference whether you work at a place where someone is willing to cover for you so you can sneak out for your anniversary or your friend's wedding, and one where no one cares enough to trade off. I think it's hard to tell that one ahead of time too - same with attitudes towards vacations. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:14 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell God, what kind of dipshit would go to a firm that treated you like this just for the sake of Vault prestige? If my firm cancels a vacation on me that I have told them about months in advance I'm calling a headhunter immediately (everyone assures me that this has never happened). Associates with good grades from good schools do not need to deal with that shit, especially in this market. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353072) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:21 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction No one, but it's difficult to know policies towards vacation ahead of time, since they're unwritten. And sometimes it just depends on the individuals you're working with - some people have no lives and don't realize other people do.
People can certainly lateral, but that's hard to do lightly, especially if you're going to another biglaw firm. You can only switch so much, so you need to be pretty sure it's an improvement before you do. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:11 PM Author: Wonderful property " restrictive internet policies where you can't check webmail (like cleary), mandatory in-office from 9:30-5:30 (like simpson"
holy shit; i had no idea |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 6:08 PM Author: Iridescent tantric church multi-billionaire I would seriously not last a day under either of those systems. The whole reason that my biglaw hours are tolerable is that I can take breaks whenever I want to, and I can use that break time to either (a) goof off on the web or (b) go for a walk/shopping/get some sun. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355569) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:09 PM Author: ruinous phenotype Cleary thing is not true anymore. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357400) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:08 AM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction I can see your point, but I don't that it's all equal once you're at the point where your hours suck. At least in my experience, the more you're working, the more valuable each hour of free time becomes. Going from 40 to 50 doesn't hurt too much, and 50 to 60 isn't that bad, but 60 to 70 blows, and if you're working 80 you have no life at all, etc. I can see people giving up money to avoid making one of those later-stage jumps.
But it's certainly true that working in a place you tolerate makes things easier. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:30 AM Author: Onyx liquid oxygen black woman i guess the way i see it, going to another v5 over wachtell doesn't ensure that you will be able to avoid one of the later stage jumps -- the difference might working fewer 80+ plus weeks, it'd be hard to say you'd be consistently working 10 hours a week less on average at cravath or davis than at wachtell. i mean, i'm sure there's a portion of people at other v5 firms billing 2800-3000 hours, and at that point, why not be at wachtell?
and from what i hear, the culture at wachtell is truly different than at other places -- i'd much rather work 80 hour weeks at a place where people like each other than where everyone is miserable -- that makes the hours soooo much worse. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:39 AM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction I guess my impression is that many of the people who are on the very, very high end of the curve for their firm seek it out (either intentionally, or by joining departments where hours are especially hellish). I'm sure there are also some unlucky souls who planned on working 58 and end up working 73 a week, but I don't think it's so randomized that it has no bearing on where you choose to work.
I'd agree that a tolerable workplace (more in terms of not too much nitpicking and having coworkers with similar mindsets than everyone actually liking each other) is also a big factor. But I don't think that even that necessarily tips in favor of any one firm - Wachtell has a pretty distinct culture, and I think that not everyone is going to find it an appealing one. Same with the firms you dislike - the kind of people they're populated with probably do better there than they would elsewhere. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:50 PM Author: Cruel-hearted Violent Chapel how would you describe the WLRK culture? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352906) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:50 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction I'll just go with nutella's description, which seems about right based on the secondhand evidence I have. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352910) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:12 PM Author: Startling Domesticated Location Electric Furnace are you at WLRK? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353566) |
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Date: July 21st, 2007 12:13 PM Author: filthy dilemma What part of "secondhand" confuses you? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#8415785) |
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Date: July 21st, 2007 12:55 PM Author: Mewling native coffee pot Good family friend is a partner at WLRK, has been there 20+ years, still hates going to work everyday, hates Wachtell, hates work, but now his fam is used to the $ so he's stuck. Don't try and church it up, BIGLAW=Sweatshop hell
HTFH |
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Date: May 30th, 2008 2:22 AM Author: lurid anal narrative (son you're too eager) don't tell us this shit, wtf are we working for then? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#9841633) |
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Date: May 30th, 2008 2:36 AM Author: pea-brained comical institution lol @ your life
it's cool to be a greedy kike. but no so good to be a house nigger. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:02 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell I've definitely heard a lot of complaints about Wachtell. It doesn't appeal to everyone. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352974) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:09 AM Author: Orange very tactful hell Sounds like he didn't get an offer at Wachtell. And if he hates the intensity and stuffiness of S&C seems like a pretty bad place for him.
Where do you get these ideas about DPW? At my school that's where all the laid back people with top grades went when they hated the S&C/CSM/Wacthell culture but still wanted to go to a top firm. Doesn't sound like a terrible crowd. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:22 AM Author: Onyx liquid oxygen black woman i guess we're all influenced by who we see at these firms. i don't understand why dpw has such a great rep as the "nice" firm at oci b/c everyone i know who went there is a backstabbing, passive aggressively "nice" person who is a secret, uptight gunner on the inside.
my roomie summered at wachtell and loved it, and this is after working until midnight most nights. it's certainly an intense place, but hardly stuffy -- she says the place runs so efficiently with the admin support and people aren't unhappy at all b/c her sense is that the associates are treated with respect. the personalities that they attract are the type that want to be the most challenging, high level work, and that's not the sense i get from my friend at s&c who is complaining that he is slammed b/c there are no mid-levels to do any work and the partners suck. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:59 AM Author: lilac center " i don't understand why dpw has such a great rep as the "nice" firm at oci b/c everyone i know who went there is a backstabbing, passive aggressively "nice" person who is a secret, uptight gunner on the inside"
Yes, this is a fair point - it could be just as bad. I really don't think it could be any worse, and I do gather from the midlevels / first years who I talk to that they do actually enjoy working there.
I'm pretty douchey too - i'm ok with douchebags. I just think S&C is depressing and suffocating. I'm not saying going to DPW is going to be a ride in the park, I just think its an improvement over S&C.
"that's not the sense i get from my friend at s&c who is complaining that he is slammed b/c there are no mid-levels to do any work and the partners suck"
Don't know anything about wachtell - they dinged me - but what you say about S&C is certainly true. They are all complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME and it is really tiring. I have to put up with this shit 4 hours a day every day and I'm a fucking summer. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:50 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell Well, for what it's worth, my sample size is more than twice yours. And I've found Stanford students uniformly douchey in general. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352909) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:55 AM Author: lilac center This is kinda like saying "Why would you go to Michigan? Yale is so much better!"
Yea, ok, but I didn't get an offer from Wachtell.
Davis might be cheap as far as cookies and sodas and dinners, but I can deal with that as long as the people aren't whining 24/7 and telling me how horribly depressed they are. I can deal with the occasional bitching - but thsi place is out of control. I'd prefer passive agressiveness to straight forward shittyness. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 9:24 AM Author: Boyish tan garrison police squad Subject: Wachtell Wachtell first-years got $60K, not $80K, for 2005. Will probably be more for 2006, but probably under $80K.
The hours are bad, but probably not much worse than other top M&A departments.
Like S&C, there are no mid-levels at Wachtell either. This is bad for junior associates because they work all the time, but good because they mostly do work that would be done by mid-levels at other firms. Lots of first-years will be the only associate on most of their deals.
The pantry and exit opportunities are excellent. Wachtell doesn't have infantilizing webmail or in-office policies, and is very respectful of its associates.
But don't kid yourself that everyone at Wachtell loves it. The firm is very respectful of associates' work, yes, but not of their time. The unpredictability, the hours, the opacity of partnership prospects and pay, and the shortage of associates all cause a lot of grumbling. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 8:56 PM Author: scarlet irradiated digit ratio halford "there are no mid-levels at Wachtell"
how does a firm that promotes to the partnership almost entirely from within have "no midlevels"? |
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Date: August 3rd, 2006 9:04 AM Author: Boyish tan garrison police squad Subject: Midlevels A firm that only really needs/wants to make a couple of partners a year doesn't need that many associates in each class. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6367603) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:01 AM Author: vengeful spectacular becky temple Good example of the problems associated with making prestige the paramount factor in making career choices.
BIGLAWPWN3D |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:22 AM Author: Vivacious Effete Forum but try out one of the branch offices...
in all seriousness, my experience as a summer at one wasn't bad. all the associates except for the newbie seemed not overly unhappy, though they did complain about the hours. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 12:00 PM Author: lilac center As much as I'd like to, i'm tied to NYC for non-professional reasons. I'm stuck here, and i'm insanely jealous of my friends working in cali or chicago. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352649) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:08 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor I just don't see why any of you want to put yourselves through any of this.
You think you'll get to be in your 20s some time later on or something? |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:10 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell It's not as bad as it sounds if you're careful. 55 hours per week in a good environment raking in $170K (and up to about $300K if you stay on for a while) in NYC is a pretty decent way to spend your late 20s. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353027) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:12 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor I haven't been hearing much about good environments yet, but whatever. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353049) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:15 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell That's why it's important to choose your firm carefully and not be blindly obsessed with prestige. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353077) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:18 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Obviously you're right.
But are there really biglaw firms out there that won't kill your 20s? (Serious Q, not flaming.) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:21 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell A lot of people think working a lot and spending tons of money at bars/clubs/restaurants on the weekend + taking amazing vacations a few times a year to exotic locations is about as good as it gets. Lots of people in Biglaw go out 3-6 nights/week. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353131) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:25 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Well, if you're right about that, then you're right.
My biglaw friends definitely don't make it out 3-6 nights a week, but maybe they just picked the wrong firms. Likewise on the canceled vacations. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:11 PM Author: Lime parlour That's why you start LS at 28: associate by 30, partner by 40, retire (or some sweet-ass, cushy job) by 50. Pretty sweet life if you ask me. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353032) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:14 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction Sounds shitty if you're 1) a woman or 2) a man who has any interest in family (before age 50). (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353064) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:16 PM Author: Lime parlour I'm a man and I intend to outsoure my family obligations to a team of pliable and respectful immigrants. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353087) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:16 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor You don't think a man can start a family unless he's making >$200K??? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353089) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:18 PM Author: Orange very tactful hell It's tough in NYC unless you're willing to send your kids to shitty public schools and either live in not-so-kid friendly neighborhood or share a room with your kids. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353099) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:19 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction You could just move to New Jersey and/or tell your spouse to chip in. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353114) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:18 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction That wasn't what I was getting at - more that it would be awfully hard for him to spend any meaningful amount of time with his kids while he's gunning for partner. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353102) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:20 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Ah, gotcha.
Though from my observation, the idea that hours go down once you're partner seems to be a myth.
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:18 PM Author: Lime parlour I think she's saying that you can't, properly, have a famlily while working biglaw hours. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353105) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:21 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor OK, so then after it kills your 20s, it goes on to kill your 30s. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353138) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:26 PM Author: Lime parlour The biglaw lifestyle seems to make more sense for someone in their 30s than someone in their 20s. I guess it's just a matter of personal taste really. When I think 20s, I think a bit of money and lots of freedom. When I think 30s and 40s, I think lots of money with a little bit of freedom.
The point is that you only get to be twenty once, while I imagine your 30s and 40s are more boring no matter what you're doing, and money can help alleviate this inevitable boredom. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:29 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Basically agree, except I'd lump the 30s in with the 20s rather than with the 40s.
But that's not everybody, I realize. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:22 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction Not necessarily, but I think it's harder if you plop your biglaw experience on top of the most common childbearing and childraising years for professionals. Of course, that kind of thing isn't important to everyone. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353140) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:29 PM Author: Lime parlour It probably has to do with my upbringing because my parents weren't home very much as I grew up. I have very individualistic tendencies, and I think 2-3 hours a day and weekends with your kids is plenty. The actual work of childraising (feeding, cleaning, etc) can be outsourced. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353203) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:32 PM Author: buff provocative circlehead your kids will want about an hour or two less than that anyway.
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:37 PM Author: Lime parlour From my limited experience with children, I'd say I would be doing them a slight disservice in their 1st 5 years. Until they're about ten, that would be more than enough time. After they're ten, I'll spend the weekend just trying to get them to spend a few hours with me.
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:35 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction That actually seems perfectly fine to me as well - I'm not an advocate of staying at home with them all day or anything. I just don't think the typical biglaw associate has anything like that. If anything, that's what the average 9-6 worker has.
2-3 hours with your friends or SO is very doable, especially if they stay up late, but kids don't stay up until 1 am. If you get home at 11, they'll probably be in bed. If you work in a market where people get out a little earlier and are very efficient, you might get an hour in the evening after you commute home and sometimes the weekends. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:42 PM Author: Lime parlour Hmmmm...good point. I always forget about the stupid NYC starting times.
You could make an effort to be home by 9 pm regularly, and that's at least an hour for young kids. As they get older they'll stay up later and later. Also, you could spend an hour in the morning with them as you get ready for work. That would be a wicked way to start the day, especially if "Maria" is feeding them. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:49 PM Author: Mildly autistic nibblets dysfunction 9 sounds realistic for someone who really cared, though I'm not sure you're always going to be able to get your 6-year-old to stay up until 10 pm. I'm just remembering my own childhood, but I think I was often in bed by 8 or 9.
An hour or two in the morning probably would be your best time, although people gave a female partner described in one of those Vault Day-in-the-Life thingies hell for hanging out with her kid in the morning and not seeing it at night. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:15 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor This makes some sense.
Entering at 30-33 seems like it might be an even better schedule. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:20 PM Author: Wonderful property nothing unique to S&C here. if anything, it's the less good places that aremuch worse, filled as they are with lemmings who want only to work for "biglaw," and are afraid to complain, or have an honest thought about anything (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353118) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:44 PM Author: Slate Curious Psychic RD:
Spend a lot of time with your summers?? |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:11 PM Author: Self-absorbed mahogany tattoo RENNY'S A CONTRACT LAWYER. BUT I STILL LOVE HIM. *SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCHES* (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354578) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:14 PM Author: Wonderful property i used to; but you really do grow apart from the whole summar associate outlook. they've really just become people who tend to do shitty work, talk too much, and seemingly think that i was never exposed to the standard first-year law school curriculum (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355059) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 1:34 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle Poppy Dog Poop Bbw maybe i missed this, but if the people are so miserable throughout the firm and this bothers you then how did you end up there in the first place. In other words, did you just not realize how bothersome that would be or were you unable to pick up on the pervasive negative attitudes during 2L callbacks? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353237) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 2:24 PM Author: lilac center Good question.
part of it is that you really can't get a real sense about a firm until you work there.
But looking back on it now, I can definately see the warning signs that I blatantly ignored. I didn't want to go to Cravath because the people were crazy. but I think of myself as a tough guy, and I didn't want to go to davis because everyone says its "passive agreesive." so i was like, why not go to the place that is honest and says that it sucks hardcore?
Then I realized when i got here that there is no reason that you ahve to be that depressed about it. You can enjoy your work and not be gunning every five minutes at some other firms. Partners and associates don't have to be cold to you all the time and treat you like tech support. And, most importantly, your co-workers don't have to be so freaking depressed all the time, whining continuously about how shitty their lives are. its like a firm full of XOXO whiners.
Should I have seen the warning signs? Yea, probably - all the other quality people at my law school did and went to either Cravath or Davis or Simpson. I was naaive and made a mistake, fortunately it isn't a big deal because I am brave enough to admit it and go to a different firm. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:19 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle Poppy Dog Poop Bbw that was very helpful (i have 2L oci coming up) thanks.
are there key questions one should ask, or key phrases one should look for, to try to locate those warning signs that a firm might have an awful atmosphere, or is it nothing more than observing the faces of people throughout the office during callbacks and when you ask your interviewers what their day is like and how they like the firm they frankly tell you how they feel? |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:22 PM Author: Self-absorbed mahogany tattoo THIS ISN'T HARD.
1) DON'T WORK AT THE V3. 2) DRAG OUT YOUR OFFERS AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. ASK TO SPEAK TO MORE ASSOCIATES AS YOU TRY TO MAKE A DECISION, CONTACT CURRENT ATTORNEYS THERE WHO ARE ALUMS OF YOUR LAW SCHOOL TO ASK THEM ABOUT THE FIRM, TALK TO RISING 3LS, ETC. 3) IF YOU CAN, DON'T WORK IN NYC. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:26 PM Author: lilac center decent advice, even in all caps. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354696) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:28 PM Author: Self-absorbed mahogany tattoo thanks. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354707) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:25 PM Author: lilac center You'll meet people who don't like the firm, and people who love the firm, at any of these firms. So it can be really hard.
After you get an offer, I highly recommend visiting the firm again for another round of meetings, preferably with 4th/5th/6th years. The callbacks you are just trying to sell yourself so you can't ask any real questions. I did this, and if I had been a rational human being I would have gone to davis because it was the best fit for me, even with the passive agressive and cheapness (both of which are true to a certain extent).
Go with your instincts, don't over think it. And most importantly, don't be afraid to re-recruit 3l year. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:48 PM Author: lilac center The bullshit never ends -
today, I asked about vacation. Apparently, we get 4 weeks. but, no one ever takes it all. I'm not sure why - maybe these are just gunners. But then I asked, does it carry over if you dont' use it? Yes, until may of the next year. What if you just can't use it because you are too busy? You lose it forever unless you get a partner to sign off. do people lose it a lot like this? Yes, it happens all the time.
WTF? Why even give out vacation if they aren't going to use it? |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:52 PM Author: Vivacious Effete Forum at the branch office, the two hardest-working midlevel associates took two week vacations during the summer. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354876) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:53 PM Author: lilac center That's not bad. If you can do that, I'm sure you can find two weeks over the course of the year to take days off and such. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354885) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:55 PM Author: Vivacious Effete Forum yeah; i'm not sure if the ny and branch office cultures are just very different, or you're interacting with a particularly unpleasant set of attorneys. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354908) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:01 PM Author: lilac center "particularly unpleasant set of attorneys"
this is always a possibility - but I've met enough people to suggest that this isn't just one particular clique. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:54 PM Author: burgundy address fanboi this is par for the course. if you were an ib, you wouldnt have any f-ing time off, youd make less than a first year bl associate, and youd work 80h a week. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354898) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:55 PM Author: lilac center well, i'm not in an ibank. S&C had the very nice "we're not an investment bank" when they were talking about salaries last year. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354913) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 4:55 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor I love this thread. It's like AnonymousLawyer from the vantage point of the associate. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354909) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:00 PM Author: lilac center I know I come off as a tremendous whiner - maybe I am - but I'm pretty sure the advice I'm giving in this thread is good. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354948) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:03 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Nah, a whiner's not even what I meant. And I could not agree more that you're telling it like it is to a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't know.
What I'd really be curious to find out down the line (though I imagine you won't be posting here any more) is if you really do find it to be better anywhere else. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:07 PM Author: lilac center Yes, so am I. But I do think firms are very different from each other. I could stick it out here for 4 years if I had to. But I do think i'll be happier elsewhere. We'll see. If I can remember, I'll bump this thread when i'm a 3rd year. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354992) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:08 PM Author: Saffron goyim parlor Cool enough. Good luck with it all. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355000) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 5:08 PM Author: lilac center ty. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355006) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 6:03 PM Author: Thriller faggotry To quote Pesci from My Cousin Vinny: "Everything this guy said is bullshit." I know many people at the firm who take all of their vacation days. And when I was interviewing at firms, the partner I met with at a V30 firm kept talking about his former firm, so I finally asked him where he began his career. Turns out he lateraled as an associate straight to partnership from S&C. No one will deny that the firm is all business. The work, the client, and the product come first before anything else. That's not for everyone, but the fact is, the work is exciting, even if it's super intense. But don't make blanket statements about a firm just because you and the firm aren't the right fit. Corporate law is tough and you have to make sacrifices. I can be so bold as to say that the vast majority of NY associates at all firms who take at least a morsel of pride in their work/career have gone through unfathomable hours at the office. You only have yourself to blame. For you, the prospect of working at a high-caliber firm was too good to pass up, and you failed to recognize the fact that in any industry, if you're at the top of the food chain, it is because there is very hard work involved. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 6:11 PM Author: vengeful spectacular becky temple Credited. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355609) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:07 AM Author: lilac center First of all, re-read what I said. I never said that no one takes all their vacation. The non-gunner douches do figure out how to take their vacation. What I said was many associates don't because they are gunning to make partner, and they aren't paid for the vacation which they don't use.
"No one will deny that the firm is all business. The work, the client, and the product come first before anything else. That's not for everyone, but the fact is, the work is exciting, even if it's super intense"
Good job reading out of the catalogue. Same is true at Davis Polk, except people seem to actually like working there, within obvious limits.
"But don't make blanket statements about a firm just because you and the firm aren't the right fit."
Nope. I'm making blanket statements about how this isn't the right fit for ANYONE. That is one of the reasons why so many people have left over the years - though the other is that it is a very good market. Still, people for the most part hate it here, unless they are have a gunner stiff personality.
"Corporate law is tough and you have to make sacrifices. I can be so bold as to say that the vast majority of NY associates at all firms who take at least a morsel of pride in their work/career have gone through unfathomable hours at the office."
You misread my assertions in this thread as lazyness. They aren't, this has nothing to do with hours - as i've noted several times. I am willing to work from 9am to 3am on deals - no problem. I've done it before and will do it again. I just don't like the shitty, stiff, cold culture at S&C.
"You only have yourself to blame. For you, the prospect of working at a high-caliber firm was too good to pass up, and you failed to recognize the fact that in any industry, if you're at the top of the food chain, it is because there is very hard work involved. "
Uhhh since when was Davis Polk not a "high caliber firm"? I mean, you seriously have to get over yourself. In fact, an offer from there is significantly tougher to get than an offer from S&C, and they have a better securities practice than S&C. S&C has got a great M&A department, but so does davis polk. I'm going to be working hard at davis polk, but the culture, while CERTAINLY NOT PERFECT BY ANY MEANS is lightyears ahead of S&C.
You are one of the typical S&C lot - you rationalize the shittyness of your existance by saying "all the other firms are the same" and "I can lateral down an make partner in 5 year!" Bottom line is - some firms have better cultures than S&C with the same exit opportunities. There is no reason to work if you can get a job at davis or simpson or debevoise unless you want to be unhappy or are socially defunct. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:10 AM Author: Avocado State Dude, you seem to view Davis Polk as your lost city of Atlantis or something. You're not going to be anymuch happier there. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357972) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:12 AM Author: lilac center No, I don't, as i've made clear numerous times on this thread. Biglaw is shitty and you work hard. But after talking to many lawyers and associates and this summer experience, I realize it is markedly better than S&C. THIS IS NOT SAYING MUCH, but its better than nothing. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357987) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:13 AM Author: Avocado State Why don't you just go do something that won't be shitty at all? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357994) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:15 AM Author: lilac center That's a fair point, but I think I'll actually enjoy law firm life for a few years. Despite the way HLS3L tried to frame this, I am NOT worried about working long or tough hours. I just don't want to do it in a place where people are whiny and depressed and hate their jobs. There is a difference between being a gunner douche and being a good lawyer. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358013) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:17 AM Author: Lime parlour "There is a difference between being a gunner douche and being a good lawyer."
Link? Seriously. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:19 AM Author: lilac center Yes, I'm serious. One can work late hours and create excellent work product and be commited to your client without being a gunner douche. Actually, most of the gunner douches fail because they are more about themselves than about the work. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358048) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:22 AM Author: Lime parlour My unsubstantiated mental image of a succesful biglaw lawyer is basically a gunner-douche. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358074) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:24 AM Author: lilac center Many gunner douches do make partner. But I think it is in spite of their gunner doucheyness rather than because of it.
I think if you are a gunner douche, though, you'd like S&C, assuming you were committed to being a cometitive gunner for your whole career. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:10 AM Author: Lime parlour Ooh ooh, I'm socially defunct. Will this fact help me get an offer? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357976) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:13 AM Author: lilac center Yes. Tell them it is your first choice. They are desperate for people who they think will stay long term, because they've lost an absolute ton of people. They used to have the attitude that they wouldn't hire any laterals, but after 3/4 of the corporate associates left for a variety of reasons, they had to hire a bunch. I feel their recruiting staff focused on trying to get people who they thought they could retain. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358000) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:16 AM Author: Lime parlour Sweet!! Useless life as a socially-defunct Sullivan partner here I come!!! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358019) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:20 AM Author: lilac center You won't make partner, and you'll leave after 2-4 years just like everyone else. At least, statistically speaking. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358059) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:23 AM Author: Lime parlour But they promised me that if I worked hard, and didn't take my full vacations, I'd be rewarded!! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358080) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:26 AM Author: lilac center No one says you can't take all your vacation time. A lot of people just don't because they are too busy gunning. I'm sure this is true at many firms, I was just surprised how often it was here and how you lose the vacation time forever if you don't use it soon enough.
Listen, the exit options out of S&C are great. But so are the exit options out of DPW, STB, Shearman, Debevoise. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 6:15 PM Author: Iridescent tantric church multi-billionaire I don't think you come across as a whiner. You come across as someone who's learned a lesson and is willing to admit a mistake. For lack of a better term, that's a manly thing to do. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355641) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 6:14 PM Author: Iridescent tantric church multi-billionaire It must be said that if you know you aren't going to make partner anyway -- which you do know at a place like S&C -- you can take that vacation if you want to. You just have to stand your ground. They're not going to fire you for it, and if they're strapped for worker bees, they can't retaliate by denying you assignments.
So make a reservation several months ahead, tell everyone you're going, and then GO. |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 10:59 PM Author: Dark stage Hmm. I too am a summer at S&C, and I don't find that to be true. It's not sunshine and light and 40 hour weeks, but I haven't found attorneys to be miserable on the whole. Then again, I don't do corporate. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357353) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:09 AM Author: lilac center I've done both, and they're both equally bad. You won't see this unless you actually ask people questions and compare it with people at other firms. it has nothing to do with the work you do during the summer - that's just a joke, like it is at any firm except maybe Cravath and Wachtell. Trust me, they do their best to keep things warm during the summer - especially in litigation where they work very hard not to give any weekend work. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357963) |
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Date: August 1st, 2006 11:40 PM Author: Hairless swollen skinny woman tanning salon I did not bother to read this thread, but anecdotally, I met a partner at a TTT firm who worked for 5 years at S&C. he flat out told me he hated his life when he was there because he did was bill bill and bill. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357650) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:10 AM Author: well-lubricated at-the-ready twinkling uncleanness This is a pretty useful/informative thread. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357975) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:14 AM Author: Avocado State It's a hoot. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358002) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:17 AM Author: lilac center I've tried to give an honest assessment of what I have learned this summer. HLS3L and others obviously think i'm wrong and i'm just afraid of working at a high caliber firm or something, so everyone will have to make up their own decision. I just simply don't see the upside in coming here if you have the opportunity to go to either Davis, STB, or debevoise. But whatever, I'm not trying to save the world. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358036) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:26 AM Author: Ultramarine vigorous site I think you can find anectotal evidence of why you shouldn't go to any of these firms. When I went on an interview at STB, 2 out of 4 associates I spoke with actually told me NOT to accept the offer. I think everyone's point (including yours and HLS3L) is that all firms suck so you just have to find the one that fits you best. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358110) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:33 AM Author: lilac center Yes, but my anecdotal evidence is based on a large number of associates telling me they are unhappy and other practicing attorneys telling me about the firm, not just 2. I didn't really research STB, so who knows about them. But it is silly to just assume that all the firms are bad so not to worry about it. Yes, they are all bad, but there are different levels of badness.
Like I said, if you guys want to write this off as a "fit" issue and, therefore, my problem, go right ahead. But I don't get why you guys think you are going to be happy when the vast majority of people at S&C aren't. DPW isn't perfect, but I think if one gets an offer there they should take if over S&C as a general matter. The older associates i've spoken to there generally seem a little more satisfied and a little happier. Its not atlantis, but it isn't a burning hell either. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:35 AM Author: Lime parlour You're trying too hard.
I have decided to ignore everything you have said and will say.
Goodnight.
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:40 AM Author: Ultramarine vigorous site I think you're right. It's possible he got fucked somehow or thinks he might not get an offer for some douchebag thing he did. It doesn't seem possible for someone to care this much. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358211) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:41 AM Author: Lime parlour Agreed. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358219) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:42 AM Author: lilac center I already got an offer, so nope.
I'm honestly trying to spread the word because I think I wasted my time this summer and would have much rather been at another firm. Listen, do your own research if you don't believe me. I'm happy with the decision i've made. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 3:13 PM Author: Dark stage So you split? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6362337) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:40 AM Author: lilac center whatever you like. You can figure this out for yourself when you summer here, you don't have to take my word for it. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358212) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:42 AM Author: Lime parlour Thanks.
I still have to get into LS, then I'll be lucky if I even get an interview at S&C. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:43 AM Author: lilac center Well, best of luck to you. S&C gets you where you want to go professionally - i've never denied that. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358247) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 3:45 PM Author: frozen aphrodisiac senate quadroon Get into law school first, and then do well enough to even sniff a firm like S&C, and then spend a summer either at S&C or at any other firm and get a hint at what it is to practice law, and then maybe you can talk. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6362693) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 3:52 PM Author: Lime parlour Hahaha!!
How is this relevant at all? How would going to LS help me gauge whether this guy is trying too hard or not? I didn't make one claim about the substance of his posts, just his motivation for posting. I even mentioned that I'd be lucky to even get an interview at S&C.
Fucking stupid much? |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 5:11 PM Author: frozen aphrodisiac senate quadroon His "motivation for posting"? Oooooh, good one. Get a life, loser. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6363488) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 6:16 PM Author: Lime parlour Amazing retort.
Why not just admit you're an idiot? You only look dumber when you come back with shit-ass rebuttals. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 12:48 AM Author: lilac center OK, you all are saying i'm trying to hard. Good enough - i've gone on too long and am now repeating myself anyway. I will stop. If anyone has questions i'll answer them, but i won't fight with the SullCromTrolls nor will I post anymore annoying messages like this.
Fondly,
Former S&CTroll |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 5:29 PM Author: Self-absorbed mahogany tattoo BEST FLAME THIS WEEK. LIKE ANYTHING THAT PRESTIGIOUS CAN LEAD TO UNHAPPINESS! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6363643) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 7:31 PM Author: contagious high-end orchestra pit new version S&C seems like a pretty nice place: http://www.sandclawyers.com/attorney.html |
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Date: August 2nd, 2006 7:33 PM Author: peach indian lodge useless brakes I read it as "Sand Claw-yers." (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6364425) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 8:49 PM Author: peach indian lodge useless brakes I just read this and laughed, then re-read it and saw who the author was! (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7432654) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 8:57 PM Author: copper keepsake machete plaza stop masturbating. its disgusting. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7432715) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 8:58 PM Author: pale menage cuck God. Spooge everywhere. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7432724) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 8:59 PM Author: peach indian lodge useless brakes I tend to do that when I think about myself. Can't help it. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7432736) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 9:01 PM Author: copper keepsake machete plaza just cause you got into YLS doesn't mean you should spend your tuesday nights masturbating to yourself. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7432744) |
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Date: January 16th, 2007 11:07 PM Author: cobalt french jewess Meet the new managing partner at Sullcrom:
http://heman.3wpages.com/biographies/CustomPics/ClawCuz1.jpg |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 4:20 PM Author: Cruel-hearted Violent Chapel http://artform.ca/rps/ciszor.gif (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7462208) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 4:57 PM Author: Startling Domesticated Location Electric Furnace 180 man. this post and the one it refers to are pure gold. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7462393) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:58 AM Author: Grizzly Soggy Cuckoldry Place Of Business Lumping in Debevoise with Cravath, Davis and STB? This whole thread is just subtle Debevoise trolling. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7466383) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 9:51 AM Author: sapphire beta toaster Lumping in STB with Cravath and Davis? This whole threat is just subtle STB trolling. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7466461) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 9:53 AM Author: Lime parlour Lumping in Cravath with Davis? This whole threat is just subtle Cravath trolling. (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#7466467) |
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Date: July 21st, 2007 12:00 PM Author: passionate university national security agency WHERE ARE THEY NOW? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#8415740) |
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Date: May 30th, 2008 1:57 AM Author: angry low-t genital piercing titcq (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#9841568) |
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Date: July 21st, 2007 2:26 PM Author: talented judgmental school Subject: Nice Thread Can someone give some information on becoming an I-banker, aside from questioning the idiotic decision to attend law school. Is SullCrom the best place? Cravath? Is it impossible? Killself? How is the transition made? Isnt it better to be an I-banker since, if you do corporate, you will just be the bitch on the deal anyway? (https://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#8416321) |